Darth Scelus

It's the little green man for me. Go Yoda.

The defenses of Juyo are still present; although it's kind've every defensive move is also an attack (i know it sounds contradictory, but it is possible, to a point) to a point; although no form is complete without defensive maneuvres. And yes true; a Jedi could keep a cooler head in a fight and hence out-smart the sith; although a good swordsmaster doesn't let themselves get too caught up with the fight; though with sith... Also might i add, just had the thought; that that may not be the case; as a Vaapad practitioner might be too concerned with not falling to the dark side; which could potentially distract them alot; while a Juyo (sith) practitioner wouldn't face that problem.

You made some good points before that i didn't realise were there; (missed reading them); so i'd like to respond to them, now... True. Although again Mace finishing Juyo makes more sense in this regard. Also i figure that 'completing' Juyo probably would've been alot more meditation than swordplay; as alot it being the mind stuff. That too, although both Shien and Djem So are listed as form 5; although again they are based off the same common premices in their sowrdplay. That kin've what i meant by 'completed'; Jedi could never master Juyo to its 'full-potential' because they would fall to the dark side doing so...also why Vaapad could never be mastered by the Sith. The defenses of Juyo are still present; although it's kind've every defensive move is also an attack (i know it sounds contradictory, but it is possible, to a point) to a point; although no form is complete without defensive maneuvres. And yes true; a Jedi could keep a cooler head in a fight and hence out-smart the sith; although a good swordsmaster doesn't let themselves get too caught up with the fight; though with sith... Yeah, i guess it does, sorry about that; what i meant though is more that you can't even start Juyo before mastering several other forms; and in that regard Juyo can only be mastered by the highest masters...but your point is completely true; Yoda used Ataru (in my view, in superiority) against every one. And yes, true about the 'tunnel vision'; although again a skilled swordsmaster tries not to concentrate too much on the fight; but that is (very) hard (for most people) to do. And yes all the forms have their weakness. True. Although it wouldn't take any real adaptation for a swordsmaster to adjust to fighting the new style; he would be taken off guard by it at first though. Though my point; that the Jedi would've based Lightsabre combat off (almost) all known fighting forms; they would still evolve (or else Shii-cho would be the only form); but the 'evolution' of the forms seemed to have slowed for several Millenia; which means there's really very little that can improve them. My point also; again all the seven form must have had some merit; they were all capable of being used to highest mastery equally; if one would put it the work. Actually that's a good point, (and yeah, the Jedi wouldn't copy a Sith form (though they wouldn't need (total) instruction; by observing the form they could at least get the basics))... ...although that raises a HUGE contradiction in Juyo... Juyo is an agressive form; and full completion (whether by design or by its natural course) invovles falling to the dark side; and hence, i would think, the Jedi would be very reluctant (if at all) to design such a form...perhaps they didn't realise quite what they were designing at the time... ...or it was designed out of necessity; perhaps during one of the wars... ...perhaps it was a Sith form; the Jedi were fighting the sith and just couldn't beat them with the existing forms; due to Juyo being the new 'tank'; and hence they had to develop some 'armour-peircing' techniques; and the only way they figured they could was by using a form similar to Juyo (again by observing)... Again Juyo is a shady area.... Interesting. Though again; Juyo is a shady area; It's focus and capabilities seem to be (at least, slightly) against the Jedi mind-set; and it's full mastery can only be achieved by falling to the dark side. So sith can use it far more effectively...hmmm....it seems, to me, that if the Jedi invented it; it was based out of desperation; either for something similar to the sith form; or because they didn't know what the end result was to be; Though if it was invented by the Sith; it would eventually find its way into circulation; but that still makes it contradictory for a Jedi to practise it... OK, i will say this, to me it seems more plausible that the Sith invented it; but that makes it really implausible for the Jedi to use it....and it's also implausible for the Jedi to have invented it; unless they didn't know what the end results would be...that seems the most plausible answer. And yeah your point about the sith lord is very sith; each wants to be more powerful than the others; so they keep things to themselves; although, again, another sith could observe it and replicate it (to a point) and then teach another or have another do the same to him; etc. etc. until it was in common knowledge.

Actually i don't think that was the case; i think it was more; Yoda sensed the fact that an army of Clone troppers was about to enter the battle in support of Sidious; and he realised he just couldn't win against such over-whelming odds; add to the fact that i personally believe Yoda was desperately trying to redeem himself from his failure with Anakin; and hence as the fight progressed Yoda's motivation wained. Also; on the Wiki page about Yoda; it proposed that during the fight; Yoda managed to break through the 'murkiness' of the force and see the future clearly...and realising he was to play (perhaps) a different part (more important even); he couldn't risk dying then. But even if that's not the case; Yoda had lost his lightsabre; and the Clones were going to be ontop of him in short time; he just couldn't beat everyone all at once. I get the others...but might i ask which ones from the movies? To me most of the stuff in the movies was 'ideally' powerful; no one seemed too powerful; even Yoda had limitations... the lightning wasn't too ostentatious; nor 'un-beatable' and all that anyone else did was chuck reasonably sized objects at one another (or use gravity to its full effect).

Well first of all; i don't think Obi-wan was the worst; well not at the time of ROTS. Before that, yeah; he wasn't the best; but i think it would be fair to give him the benefit of the doubt; firstly; When he fought Maul; he was an apprentice; Secondly; After that he re-ordered his preferred fighting style; meaning he had to learn a completely new style from scratch; also given that now he was a Knight he probably would've had to most of that by himself; or maybe taught under Yoda; in either case he had to learn a new form and that would take a long time. But by the time of ROTS he was probably one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi order; while i dislike most of the examples for why this was; i will say this; he could hold off Grevious; and that takes serious skill...although i'm not too fond of that example and Grevious isn't force-sensetive. He mightn't have been the best; but he was definitely a serious contender. Sidious being the best is possible; i agree whether Mace beat Sidious is dubious; frankly; it was either manipulation (as you point out); or Mace got lucky; Sidious made the slightest mistake and Mace grabbed his chance. Not to say Mace wasn't coming very close to being equal with Sidious if not equal to him already. However, i think Yoda beats Sidious; Yoda kept up with Sidious for their entire fight; what's more; Yoda must have disarmed Sidious; (either because he was a better swordsman or he got lucky) Although it doesn't show it; when Yoda confronts Sidious again in close quaters (when they both land on the same senate pod) Sidious doesn't draw his lightsabre; It's close quarters and he has to instead use force-lightning; ... that really seems like a desperate tactic to me; which i think also implies he had lost his lightsabre before that; and given that Dooku would've informed him of Yoda's capabilities; force-lightning seems like a futile move; Even if Sidious still had his lightsabre; he must've realised Yoda could best him; so instead he used the lightning. I personally think Yoda should get the title (even though i gave my vote to Mace).

True; and yes i agree that fencing has no martial merit in today's world (which is a bit of pity). The only thing is that those 'ineffective' forms (if any) would never be used in battle; they would obviously have other merits that keep them in circulation (perhaps Tradition alone); and also there is always someone who keeps a style going (despite any inadequacies). And also true; the forms that are now present would all have significant merit, due to their age. Hence their longevity has been proven in terms of quality. True, Shii-cho can be effective (when mastered to the right degree) but it's main merit is that it is simple and can be taught to novices quite easily; also it teaches them in all the basics so they can learn the more complicated forms. Shii-cho's combat merit though is it's simplicity. Agreed. Agreed. Also on that point; the older Jedi/Sith probably were better swordsmen; as they were involved in wars between both sides (hence more combat experience, as you pointed out earlier). True, in part. Juyo would've given an advantage over other wielders in a sense; it's concentration on offense and it's new 'force-manipulation' would've been something a little surpirsing. Although as it has been said; it's not the form that matters but how well it is mastered; any Masters of the other forms could compensate and beat a Juyo practitioner if they were good enough. Although given that Juyo is considered to be the pinacle of swordplay any master can reach; once it was invented and came into circulation all the 'super' masters would try it out...although some would probably be put off by its risks and what have you. Again, no form is really superior to another (well if they are then the ones that aren't are kept in practice for other reasons, as has been said earlier); it's simply a question of the weilder. True, in all considerations; a lightsabre is far superior to a normal sword. True. Yeah; unless of course there's always a Jedi that is equally powerful available; but then it seems really pointless. The thing is the characters (to me anyway) get tiresome when they are that powerful; problems aren't a problem (if you'll excuse the pun); they can do anything and that seems a little self-defeating. Well technically true; the technique of the seven forms could be adapted to fighting with a duel sabre. But they would be considerabley different; and wouldn't follow any of the moves; more they would just follow the 'idea' behind the form. Although they still wouldn't be as effective as a 'duel-sabre' form. And that also goes for the duel-wielding; they forms would be very different. And also; i actually think that Mace wasn't using Vaapad at the time; he probably was using Jar'Kai mostly; with some adaptations from Vaapad. The thing is; while the forms could be adapted to another weapon; the other weapon or other mid-set for weilding is substantially different from a single sabre; and dedicated forms to these weapons would be far more effective (although the 'ideas' of the other forms could be adapted into this). For example; you'd never use a katana in a 'fencing' style; it's just not designed for it. Well your point about Maul/Juyo and duel-sabres does have a lot of merit; Juyo is a very aggressive form; and coupled with a duel-sabre; it would suit a weilder only concerned with destruction. But again; a dedicated duel-sabre technique coupled with the ideas of Juyo would be far more effective. I concede your point, in part; all the 'techniques' of the other forms could be adapted to duel-sabre or duel-wielding; however there would be forms based solely for these other styles; Jar'Kai for example; and these would form the foundation of the style; with inspiration from the other forms. Also true. Again; everything has its weakness. True; although i don't know that much about the 'post-empire' period. Nor any of the characters; other than they used new styles; given that the 'seven forms' had been more or less lost. Again, any character that is too powerful is rather pointless.

Hehe...my bad; it was you who said that; or rather something to that accord; (also; i apologise for my terrible 'more better'; had a thought then changed it; or rather changed the wording; only didn't erase enough words) Although; another point you made about some of the masters from the pre AOTC era being way too powerful i completely agree with. I prefer to look at the Jedi (and Sith) presented in the films as the best examples for the 'most powerful' force-users; because they seem to have adequate limits. Although; i too am a bit of a Revan fan; though i must admit i don't know as much about him (canonically) as some. And i also agree he'd be pushing it (from my point of view; he'd probably even be too powerful) really for (limited) 'super-force-users'.

That's not always true; as long as a style has martial merit it will stay practiced. It's only when there is a clearly superior style that one will be succeeded and dropped entirely. Or when all those who know the style are gone and the knowledge is lost. I mean even Shii-cho still finds (few) masters who think it capable enough to stand up to any other form (when mastered to the right degree). And strictly speaking Shii-cho is the closest form to being ineffective; so i doubt that any of the styles would dissappear; of course they would probably be altered to some extent over the course of time. Also; assuming the statement "...if an item does not appear in our records; it does not exist..." Holds at least some merit; the Jedi would've encountered (almost) every known fighting style; and i would think Lightsabre combat would've then been based off of all these to be the most combat effective form attainable (also; the force 'prediction' stuff the Jedi use gives them a significant advantage over non-force using enemies; and the capabilties of a lightsabre). In my opinion, i don't think the forms would've died out; also they've lasted for many millenia already; and it would seem progress in form development has slowed in the last several thousand years; I mean; Juyo (again unfinished to Jedi) has been around since the Jedi Exile (i think, at least 3000 or so years, possibly longer) and between then and the AOTC era nothing happened; it wasn't until Mace Windu developed Vaapad (finishing Juyo); and even that was only a modification of an existing form rather than a designing a whole new one. It's just the 'older masters' would've existed before some of the latest forms existed; and hence we don't necessarily know what potential they would've had with those... Though as has already been pointed out; it's not that any form is superior to another; it's how well it is mastered; (also said) a master of an 'inferior' form is far more better than a novice of a 'superior' form; which is also very true; even though soem forms may not have existed at the time the 'older masters' may have been far better swordsmen.

Yeah i've heard that before; and hence; if she also reffering to Nihilus and Sion; then wouldn't that make the older masters far more powerful/skilled with their lightsabre duelling? Although...it don't know; should a requirement be that all the lightsabre forms had to be in existence at the time? Though, that could be a little self-defeating; given that the ones who couldn't master 'non-existant' forms could conceivably be better swordsmen; Still...i don't know how valid all of the 'older masters' would be though.

Mace couldn't-it is mentioned in the book (and I think it was seen in the clone wars animated series) that Mace fought Grevious on Corasant just prior to the opening of the film. (The reason Grevious was coughing at the start of that film was because Mace force crushed Grevious during that fight-this is mentioned on the comentory for the DVD). Mace couldn't get past Grevious's defenses, which was (mentioned in the book anyway) why they sent Obi-Wan after Grevious rather than any of the other Jedi masters. Given this, and that (again, in the book at least) Mace says that Obi-Wan was a better swordsman than himself leads me to hand the title to Obi-Wan over everyone else. Even going off battles fought Obi-Wan is the only one of his time to face no less than three Sith lords (Maul, Dooku and Vader), beat two of them (Maul and Vader) and although he didn't beat Dooku he faced him twice and lived to tell the tale....admittidly only because Yoda showed up to distract Dooku before he could finish Obi-Wan off in the first fight, and Anakin was there to fight Dooku in the second case. Actually; in the clone wars cartoon thing (which shows Mace crushing Grevious's chest) he actually doesn't get there in time for him to duel with Grevious. Just as he arrives; Grevious is boarding the shuttle with his prisoner; and just as Grevious turns to face Mace (backing into the shuttle, at the same time, i think); Mace crushes his chest. They don't actually duel; well not at that point. But yeah, i've heard that quote before; "That is so like you, Master Kenobi. I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form

Although, tachnically we don't know if Mace could've taken Grevious (nor Yoda); they never got the chance to my knowledge. But i think Obi-wan really should be one of the higher contenders.

Also, i like the idea of Obi-wan being the best swordsman.

True; why alot of the chinese martial arts films involve actors who know martial arts; and when they're doing moves that require extensive training a stunt man is the qualified one. Although in ROTS (and in the other films; for the most part) Obi-wan and Anakin did the entire fight scenes themselves; in ROTS the stunt-doubles were only used in that scene when they were on the big pillar floating in the lake of lava; the rig they built was probably a little dangerous (also stuntmen are probably trained in how to react if a stunt does go wrong; and this would allow them to protect themselves better from injury). But yeah, the actual fighting in ROTS was done entirely by the actors (the ones that could; Dooku and Palpatine were really too old to be doing their moves; so they replaced them with a proper swordsman in the scenes where they had to fight; which is fair enough) Yeah; although Jackie Chan is qualified as a stunt man (i would believe); again he's a 'martial arts' actor and his original films were all martial arts. And yeah some actors really want to do all their own stunts; but there are limitations as you've pointed out earlier. They went through several different types of lightsabre props during the films. They tried carbon fibre rods-which cracked-and aliminum rods-which bent. A broken length of carbon fibre hitting someone in a lunge could potentally be almost as bad as being impailed on a real sword, while a metal pole is going to cause some major bruising even if it doesn't break the skin. I think you are correct in saying that lunges were used once or twice in the films, but If I'm recalling correctly I think those lunges were done at range-meaning that even if they had connected the 'blade' would have not had enough force to do any major damage (Lunging with both hands probably also helps, since a two handed lunge isn't going to go as far as a single handed lunge.) I think in other cases the camera angles would lead you to conclude that the lunge was made closer to the body than it really was, or the lunge was done in such a way that they were not aiming at someone directly but towards the camera. Actually; in ROTS they used a Carbon/Fibre-glass mixture that proved very durable; in fact i think they only broke the props once or twice (in the entire filming AND the (i think, literally) hundreds of hours of training the actors had to do); although i recall hearing somewhere someone saying that they didn't break the props once in the entire time. And the Palpatine lunge doesn't count as they would've had to cut and then FX the Jedi Master being impaled; and Anakin lunges at Dooku in the first fight scene aboard the Invisible Hand; but that one the actor was fighting against a trained swordsman; so even if something went wrong the swordsman could block it with no trouble; And i'm not sure about the camera angles stuff; well i can say that the lunge in the Obi-wan Anakin duel is not; the camera is a long shot from the side; and they were rather close but you are correct as the lunge was a double handed; also Obi-wan countered it well...actually that one might not count too much as it was just before Obi-wan drags Anikins blade into the console; i'd have to watch it closely to tell whether it was really forceful (sorry for the pun) or not. But yeah lunges are not used very often; and are hard to deal with.

Yeah it's the only plausible explanation; given the amount of time he had to design it. And on further inspection; most of the moves he does are almost identical to Palpatine's (well except for a couple which he does solely). And as i've said i like that explanation as it means Vaapad and Juyo are both the same and different simultaneously; Vaapad for Jedi, Juyo for Sith. Although i can't really decide who's the better swordsmaster; Mace got my vote; though i think i like Yoda better.

Yeah; sorry if i do go a bit over-board; Though i like to get all my points out on the table before i try and argue...sometimes it means i post things that are pages long...oh well; Still what's this thing with Vaapad?

might i ask (i'm a little lost), Damn to what? Although you were right in one thing; that part when Anakin and Obi-wan are on the big pillar thing that's in the lake of lava; they used stunt double for that; but that was because the rig they built was precarious; and considering they didn't actully do any fighting on it it didn't matter; (also you were correct about the legal stuff) Still i think it's awesome the actors did that fight (and at that speed) all themselves; still 6 hours a day for months; well that's what they get paid for.

As an aside; The lightsabre 'Forms' used in the original trilogy were devived from fencing styles in the real world; Rapier, Epee and Sabre-In fact the guy in the Vader suit during the fight on Bespin was a real life fencing master. By the time of the prequals they started to shift towards other swordfighting styles-such as Kendo, which seems to be the basis for Qui-Gon Jin's form. I'm not sure why this happened, unless it was easier to find a fencing master schooled in the western styles than it was to find someone who knew easten forms when they made the original films. Um actually i think it was the other way around; the moves in the original bare far more resemblance to kendo than fencing; specifically the two handed grip all the Jedi use in the originals; and the moves themselves; they are strong direct strikes very similar to the japanese styles. It was in the prequels that they decided to use more of the western (and Chinese) style influences; specifically with Makashi; (TPM doesn't count; at that time they were still doing something similar to the original although they wanted to try and do something a little different); as i was saying; with Makashi; it was supposed to be the 'fencing' style of lightsabre combat; specifically; Dooku's footwork is very reminiscent of fencing footwork; while in the original (and with Anakin) the footwork was all 'japanese' footwork; wide dominant stances. Makashi; also seemed to use a one handed grip on the sabre far more; and it's emphasis on 'deftness of hand' is also remaniscent of fencing techniques; (also Chinese; both favour the wrist); unlike the japanese moves which tend to emphasise shoulder motions; hence leading to your point of 'one powerful blow that kills the enemy'. In the prequels they decided to use more of these different styles of fighting. True; and it was in this that decided in the prequels to use the 'Seven forms'; and actually when you know how to track the moves things (in both real fencing and the lightsabre stuff) don't look as impressive as before. ah you've come across something that is of considerable importance; Lightsabre fights are choreographed after all; I've watched real fights; in a proper match even between masters of their fencing style; the longest match i've seen lasted 5 moves. The fight between Obi-wan and Anakin (the first run; after he strnagles Padme; until it cuts to yoda and palpatine) is over 40 moves long. It is totally unrealistic in terms of ACTUAL combat; in actual combat you don't actually block every blow in fact you actually try not to block a blow you don't have to; because as the enemy attacks he will have to commit his entire weight to that strike; and if you can simply out-maneuvre his blow; HE WILL BE DEFENSELESS; you can bring your blade up and strike him and he will never be able to regain his balance enough to block. That's why real fights don't last very long; it's usually the first person to attack loses. I watched this fight between two olympic fencers; one attacked, the other our maneuvred him and sturck; what was more is you could see the attacker try to bring his blade back to parry that blow; AND HE WASN'T FAST ENOUGH; these people are the closest thing to real fighters in today's time. Remember the point of duelling is to immobilise or KILL your opponent as QUICKLY as possible; the longer a fight lasts the more chance they'll win. However when you have the ability (to a point) to predict your opponents moves and have some more powerful outside force (sorry for the pun) guiding your every move; you can counter every move your opponent makes; also why it says in the visual dictionary (AOTC; lightsabre combat) "...in advanced lightsabre combat, the force plays a larger role than physical skill alone..." So a Jedi can just keep predicting every move their opponent makes; and their opponent them; other factors come into it; but it could potentially last forever. But the 'REAL' fencing is terribly anti-climatic; the fight would last all of five seconds; so what they do is choreograph a set of moves that can flow from one to another and that look good. Now about that back block; You're completely correct; in most normal fencing; you would never turn your back to your enemy; once you lose track of them your done for. Their are instances when you could twist to evade a blow; but usually this would mean you would then IMMEDIATELY kill them (my point above about the over balancing); but even this is a little dubious; and you'd never try attacking from a spin. However; these "normal" fencing moves get awfully dull after a while; unless you have lots of intersting terrain (watch Pirate of the Carribean 2; when they're fighting on top of the big wheel; they are really good fencing maneuvres; only they get boring if you can watch the action constantly; so to stop this they used alot of intersting and changin terrain (through a building on its roof and then strangely on a moving water wheel)) But lightsabre's have always been about the look; you want to see the fight; so the have to make moves that look extra-ordinary. There was a particular move for example; the 'triple spin' Obi-wan and Anakin both do; it involves a move that spins the blade across the back while you've got your back to the enemy; now in real fencing; it would never work; but they use it so well in the film (they got Obi-wan striking the blade mid-spin which meant it looked like a back block); And it did look incredible; every move looked like it had a purpose; they flowed fluidly and were also believable; Lightsabre fights are not FIGHTS they are DANCES; they have a set number of moves that flow smoothly from one to another and never stop until the end of the fight. In terms of realism; there are a lot of dubious (and plain 'never-gonna-happen' moves in all of the prequel fights; interestingly; the original fights actually were more realistic; but not as artful) moves in the fights; but in terms of choreography they are brilliant; believable; and smooth. Actually there are several lunges in ROTS; in the opening fight with Palpatine (between all the masters) he lunges twice; Anakin lunges once in his duel with Dooku; and at least once in his duel with Obi-wan; i can get you the precise time code of the movie for when he does; if you'd like(?). Although i'd like to point out they're not so much 'fencing' lunges; they are always done with both hands on the blade; but they are still lunges. Yes lunges are (from experience) very difficult to avoid or block unless you know how; however their was no problem with the props; they're were blunted poles. Although yes lunges can result in the more horrific injuries with props than blows. Interesting. Although the Wushu thing i think i'd heard about; Interesting thing is that Wushu is actually the chinese form of 'choreographed' matrial arts. What wushu is is the 'general' term for martial arts; also it is specifically used in the chinese sword films to create the long (again, unrealistic) duel between the characters. Actually it's not that complicated; in fact it is incredibly simple when compared to the fights in ROTS; not to say it wasn't awesome when it came out; (actually even the moves in ROTS aren't that complicated; their are a couple that are and they do take alot of practice) See the thing is it looks complicated; but in truth (and from experience) it's not; most of the moves are incredibly simple. Well except for the flips Maul does; that one he does after his lightsabre is cut in half (not the one to get up off the floor; the one after that) does take substantial training; but in terms of the movements; they are all rather simple; they look cool beacuse glowing sticks are doing them and because when most people watch the fight they try to track everything that's going on; when you focus on one person alone you will actually realise that what they're doing isn't all that complicated. Also; in ROTS that entire lightsabre fight between Anakin and Obi-wan; the actors did that all themselves; no stunt doubles for the actual fighting; it took them each about 6 hours a day for weeks on end to get that right. Interestingly; and in relevance to all this; with ROTS; they realised they'd taken the 'lightsabre' combat to it's full effectiveness that they could in the second film (notice how different the intensity of the fights in ROTS was compared to the last two); What they realised with ROTS was they had take it to the next level; not only would they be fighting in the lightsabre styles; the moves had to become alot faster; (they threw in a couple more moves that look really cool but were harder to learn; that triple-spin i mentioned earlier) and they had to work into incredibly smooth runs. Everything was taken to a higher level with ROTS; and it worked brilliantly; the Anakin/Obi-wan fight scene is one of the best choreographed fights ever. And the actors did all the fights themselves.

Actually; his apprentice was Depa Billaba who was a member of the Jedi council by PM; and she wasn't his apprentice during AOTC or ROTS; although she and Sora Bulq help Mace Windu design Vaapad (sorry, i've been pelling it wrong; i've corrected that now); but Sora couldn't take the flow of the light side and dark side energy; so he fell to the dark side; also Depa (after witnessing the atrocities of the war; and also because of the Vaapad stuff) fell to the dark side. Considering the danger involved in learning any form 7 Depa would've had to have been an accomplished swordsmaster; obviously as she was a member of the Jedi Council; and hence she (in my view) must have assisted Windu in the creation of the new form; also she would've had to have already been a (to the Jedi point of view) master of Juyo before that (to my point of view). As some one has said before me; "...a good gentleman knows when he's beaten..." so i cencede your argument; The Clone Wars lasted for three years; and even with two (or possibly three) of the highest swordmasters working on perfecting (might i also say that i would be more plausible that they 'complete' Juyo for the Jedi rather than design a completely new form) Juyo so that Jedi could use it; three years just wouldn't be enough. One thing i'd like to add; in that it would make more sense if they were helping Mace design Vaapad; although also he'd then have the ability to test the new style against these others that helped him; and also given that there was a war on; he'd have numerous opportunities to test the form out against other enemies. Although, again, with learning a new form in short amounts of time, the force must play a role in that and hence wouldn't it also play a role in designing the new form; Ah...i retract that statement; they are both totally different things; and the role it would play in the latter seems to me to be rather miniscule if at all. True. Again; in my view Vaapad is the completed Jedi Juyo; and so hence it would be more or less identical to Juyo; although altering the technique slightly perhaps; and hence it's true you'd need to learn Juyo to learn Vaapad. Also i prefer my argument because i think it solves the argument of what Vaapad is; in that i don't mean i've got the answer and every one else is wrong; to me it finds the 'common' ground between the other sides of the argument; In that Vaapad can be considered a 'new' form designed to replace Juyo; (as i does alter the mind set; to allow Jedi to use it); and also it can also be considered a 'completing' of Juyo (as it is merely adjusting the form so Jedi can use it). Agreed. The only problem is that we don't have a concrete example of what Vaapad is; if you observe the moves in ROTS; you can distinctly see the difference between Makashi (Dooku), Soresu (Obi-wan; although it is debatable by the back-story), Ataru (Yoda), Djem So/Shien (Anakin) and Juyo (Palpatine); (Shii-cho is very simple and we know how that is supposed to work, supposedly; and Niman isn't shown; although it is debatable) Each looks unique and you can see the 'style' of the form; but Vaapad; As i've said before i'm not sure the moves and the back story match; although some of his moves were very much like the Juyo ones; so again it's possible that Vaapad is just a completion of Juyo for the Jedi; my argument. And again it just isn't possible to really define the difference because we just don't have enough evidence to back either side up.

Yeah do check up on that; because i don't doubt that it may be there; the only problem is that that contradicts all other evidence and i believe what's considered cannon; Mace Windu invented Vapaad (with a couple other Jedi's help). Also you are correct Vapaad brings you very close to the darkside; The reason being; stated in the Wiki page; that Vapaad was a channel for one's inner darkness; and to master it one had to be a true master of the light side; this was dangerous as it meant one would face these emotions and hence skirt close to the dark side; the same was true for Juyo; the more a Jedi wanted to master it the closer they would get to the dark side; Vapaad was the answer; you could have the completeness and full mastery of 'Form 7' without the nasty after-effect of falling to the dark side. Vapaad was invented by Mace; to channel his dark emotions into a weapon of light; Vapaad was the COMPLETE Jedi form of Juyo; while Juyo (form 7) could be taught and mastered to a point by Jedi; it could never be mastered fully; because it involved embracing the darker emotions and hence falling the dark side. Mace Windu was a form 7 master at the time of the Battle of Geonosis; this was Juyo; and perhaps realising that Juyo could never be fully mastered by a Jedi (in the time between AOTC and ROS, during the clone war) Mace completed Juyo by inventing the new form Vapaad; again; Vapaad is the COMPLETE JEDI form 7 They are both form 7, Juyo and Vapaad. But Juyo can never be mastered by Jedi; Vapaad can. Although, in my view, it wasn't very effective; Depa Billaba was the only other Jedi to master Vapaad, and she fell to the dark side. Which also leads me to believe that Vapaad can never be mastered by a Sith; seeing as it requires the user to channel their darker emotions into a weapon of light; a Sith could never master it; being adept in the dark side and all. A Sith could master Juyo (Maul and Sidious both used it); as i've said; but they couldn't master Vapaad; because one of it's foundings is that you use it for a weapon of light.

My point; in learning a particular style one learns the method with which you counter ANY other style. The style imprints instinctual responses. You counter the same attack (no matter how it's made) with the same defensive maneuvre. While seeing a different form of swordplay will take an opponent off guard; it won't give you an advantage over an equally skilled swordsman. So in a sense you're right; you are merely using your technique to counter a new one; so it could be viewed as 'adapting'. Firstly; and I respect you for notifying about your brother; I would just like to say that his argument is a little flawed; in the MOVIE which shows the 'real' fight; Palpatine is the aggressor for nearly the entire time; Windu gets in a few attacks; but Palpatine has him on the defense for the majority of the fight; he goes on the offensive when he drives Palpatine towards the window (when Palpatine starts bouncing off the furniture). Windu was keeping up with Palpatine; remarkably well; and Palpatine was keeping up with Mace (when he finally went on the offense) equally well; Mace just got lucky when he kicked Palpatine's lightsabre out of his hand. Palpatine and Mace were nearly equal in capability; they were both Form 7 masters; Windu got lucky; that was all. The Seventh form was JUYO not Vapaad; JUYO was technically incomplete to Jedi (in my opinion); as to fully master it one had to embrace their powerful emotions; why Sith are superior COMBATANTS to Jedi; they could learn a far more powerful and lethal form that Jedi could not (without falling to the dark side); and joining the Sith anyway (a little self-defeating). Vapaad; which was what Windu was using; was a brand new form that was designed to complete Juyo so that Jedi could use it without falling to the darkside; even though the only other Jedi that learned Vapaad fell to the dark side; it's "...close, but not quite..." Vapaad was the finished JEDI 'Juyo'. Palpatine was using the sith (completed) Juyo. Well firstly; I agree; no he's not; Yoda was a better duelist; he was the top Jedi at the time after all; and he knew all the forms (well except for Vapaad); only he chose Ataru to compensate for his deficiencies (short and old). And Palpatine was at least equal to Yoda. With the fighting however; Vapaad is quite dubious; we've only seen ONE example of it; not for very long; and a lot of the 'back-story' about it's intent isn't demonstrated in this fight; although Mace's moves are different from any other form we've seen. And with duelling an equal combatant; the first person to make a mistake loses; or the first person to get a break wins. Your argument is correct; although the point is that if your equally matched you'll never get inside their guard nor they yours; not from skill alone; you're right in that: the first person to make a mistake will have their opponents blade inside their guard. But the 'force-assisted' stuff kinda counters that. That get's me a little muddled; with your scenarios; is that; in duel that is using force powers as well against a straight duel...or...a duel with the 'force-assistance' against a duel without? If it's the latter; there's no point; the Jedi and Sith rely entirely on the force to guide their movements etc. that without it they couldn't fight at all; Jedi (and Sith) fighting styles all have the 'force' element built in; it's part of the form. On the former though; in the high intensity duels there's no time for 'force-powers'. And you are correct in that the better swordsman wins in such a duel. Although who is the better Swordsman is questionable; Yoda is my bet, as i've said before, being the Grand Master; but frankly taking the whole 'the dark side is more powerful than the light side' and the qualities of Sith training; i'd say Palpatine would also be considered.

"...Assuming that it takes years to fully master a lightsabre form, and given that Luke only trained with Yoda for a few months, it seems unlikely that Luke would have been considered a master swordsman by the standards of the pre-clone wars jedi..." Agreed...however, being the son of the 'Chosen One' might've added something to that... "...Although Luke would have been trained in at least two forms-Yodas form and Obi-Wans-and he did seem to know Vaders style (he used that on the deathstar)...It may be that Luke's lightsabre form is/was a mixture of at least three different styles..." Yoda's main form was Ataru (or Ataro; i've seen it spelt like that before), he used it to compensate for his old age and lack of height; it was an agressive form; Obi-wan's (before the death of his master Qui-gon Jinn) was Ataru as well; although after defeating Maul he shifted to Soresu; the most defensive of all forms; realising Ataru's weaknesses; The thing is Vader's form (as Anakin and Vader) was Djem So/Shien; the importance of this is that Djem So/Shien was developed by combining the Agressive nature of Ataru with the Defensive mind-set of Soresu; it was developed by a bunch of Soresu master's who beleived the Soresu as too passive; and preferred a more offensive angle; also it was to address the short-comings of Ataru; by blending the effects of both forms together; So as Luke was trained by Yoda and Obi-wan; he would've naturally learned both techniques and blended them together hence leading to something that was much alike the Djem So/Shien style that Vader used Although given that this wasn't the exact and precise Djem So taught to Anakin... (and that Djem So included elements of Makashi; according to some sources; which Luke didn't learn to my knowledge; although Yoda being a Jedi 'Grand Master' and the best swordmaster at that time; he would've known all seven forms; i remember reading that he did know all seven but chose Ataru to compensate for his age and lack of hieght...although that's a discussion for another thread) ...Luke would've not had the finer elements of Djem So. (also the fact that when the original trilogy was made i don't think they had the concept of 'The Seven Forms'; more that there really was only one way to duel with lightsabres; which was kinda based off Kendo with little bits of other stuff here and there...they changed the styles when they made the prequels; the 'Seven forms' were intregrated; and they used more sources of dueling) "...in which case he would be far more adaptive and unpredictable than the 'old' Jedi would have been. That might help explain, at least in part, why someone who was only trained for a few months by Yoda would be able to hold their own against a fully trained Sith Lord..." While it is an interesting supposition, I'm not sure that that would be the case; while in the sense he wouldn't be using 'stock' moves that one would be used to seeing, and that lends to unpredictability; but in a sense his lack of training would also make him very predictable in that he wouldn't have the mastery to use the technique/form to it's full effectiveness. Being adaptive too; i don't think he would've managed; as while he was not as experienced and hence he'd need to be adaptive to learn; he wouldn't have the mastery to be adaptive in a combat sense in that... "...you need to know the rules; before you can break them..."...my music teacher drilled that into me; and in many things that is correct; he would've needed to know his forms completely before he could've used them in an adaptive sense. "...Simply put they would not be used to fighting someone who was using a mixture of forms-The same way that Palpatine had trouble dealing with Vaapad simply because he didn't know that form, although there would have been other factors in that case..." I don't think that would've mattered; the focus of a technique or form in this case; Djem So for example, is designed to counter ANY attack made in any way; with a certain counter move; while they would be taken surprise by the fact that their opponent suddenly shifts to another method of attacking; they'd still be able to counter it. With the forms it's more different ways of countering the move; compare Soresu and Djem So; say the opponent strikes at your side (chest height) in a long swipe, (these moves are very hard to describe without visual aids) Soresu; would have you make a quick pass of your blade across your body, close to your body, effortlessly deflecting the opponents blade While Djem So; would have you swing your blade openly with force to counter the strike; Also, Soresu would then have you wait for the opponent's next strike; delfecting it in a similar manner; while Djem So (providing the opponent hadn't already begun attacking again) would have you then attack yourself; this is difference of the forms; each has a disticnt philosophy; which is reflected in the way the form works. There were other factors in the duel between Mace and Palpatine (in my view); but still it wouldn't have mattered that Palpatine didn't know Vapaad; although he would've been unused to fighting an opponnent using a similar style; his style would've countered it.