ElizabethLestrad

True, but at the same time, it doesnt mean you cant be user friendly with more modern technology. Just look at a game like Pariah. Granted that game got absolutely panned by critics and gamers alike (from what Ive heard), but having seen their editor (and actually goofed around with it) it was userfriendly and powerful, with possibly the lowest learning curve Ive possibly ever seen. Granted it had about as many placables and textures as the Saharrah Desert has life, but the fact that they at least tried (and almost succeeded) to make a point definitly is worth some respect. My concern was actually answered really early on in...I cant remember the persons post...when they said game editors were being made more complicated for the modders. Well if they keep getting made more complicated, the number of new modders are eventually and inevitably going to die off so how would modding continue if editors are getting exponentially harder to use all the time? And in a way your right. I didnt have to pick NWNII over NWN it had several things that NWN didnt. 1.) The Graphics - no way to truely do a grand project justice than with excellent graphics Ok, maybe only one thing...I would have put number of monsters, item customibility options, etc but NWN did at least have it beat there. And I would have put a community (of which NWN was dying by the time I was forced to stop due to Internet Nazis at college 3-4 years ago, but unfortunatly the NWN II community has not taken off like was expected for reasons I cant comprehend. So at this point, sadly, ive resigned myself to the fact that theres absolutely no insentive in trying to fulfill a "grand vision" at this point since nobodys going to see it even if I tried anyways...and I wouldnt dare put something up of a quality that Id never play on just to try. But hey, when you cant even get people at $15 an hour to help out theres really no reason to bother anyways. I'll just probably wait till I have enough fleshed out and sell the idea for a stand alone game and then at least Id make some money off all the waiting I had to do to finally get something worth while done (Heavy sarcasm). Heh, at this point I dont even have the incentive enough to update my webpage that I put up to advertise the mod. But even if I had the incentive and abilities required to do the project, it would never be finished. Not because of the scope, but Rakasha are kinda a important part to it and without them its kinda mute.

Ok, actually I found something that I said that isnt quite true. So I didnt "plan" anything really, since I had the stuff all written down, all the maps drawn, all the characters fleshed out to the point that I theoretically could have made it into a Massivly Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. The problem is, Id rather not have to do that. Sure its probably lucrative to produce a game, but then theres the people telling you what to change, how to do things, etc and being the perfectionist that I am, and extremely proud of the work that I do. Id rather not have to deal with that. Another thing is, like most game developers, and even a majority of modders, have a team to spread the work out amongst eachother. One person might do well at programming, one might be able to create textures, another might be a moddeler, etc. Unfortunatly, I dont have that luxury. And the fact that I cant script, model, or design textures, really hammpers my abilites. Heh, I had to rely on prefabricated scripts and the quest/conversation wizards. Heh, the only thing I really have going for me is I can make stuff look aethstetically. And, when situations are right, I can grind out quality like a mercedes manufacturing plant. I believe when I was working with the Neverwinter Nights engine, I got out over 100 areas down to the last minute detail, close to a thousand NPCs complete with conversations, I pretty much had everything...50% done. Its hard to say I had anymore because I couldnt and still cant script worth a darn as the only computer code Ive ever worked with is BASIC :'( . Well that and I still had over 50-80 additional areas left to go (I cant rememeber the exact numbers because I deleted the work shortly after Neverwinter Nights II was announced in favor of saving the effort for the better graphics (Not smart :crazy: ). That being said, onto the question...what am I having problems with...theres a list. 1) Building walls In NWN1 this was easy, just use the elevate terrain tool within the city tileset and you not only had walls, but walls that could be walked on, and on which you could line archers, etc. In the NWN2 editor it seems you have to do 2 feet of wall at a time, indiviually placing each piece. 2) Building a city itself. As said earlier, Im a perfectionist when it comes to something that I take seriously. Ive found several things extremely difficult in the regards of building cities. A) You cant make stepped cities. The closest example that I could thing of that would even come close to this would probably be something along the lines of Minas Tirith from Lord of the Rings. Although that is much steeper than what Im looking for, thats the best example I can think of at this time. Something where both levels are connected by stairs, since the major and most important city is a costal city built on a hill. And wanting the city to be extremely refined its important that the roads are flat, straight, and level. Granted from a transportational aspect, you would need ramps for horses, carrages, etc but even those would need to be level and flat, and not bumpy and uneven like, say, the ramp leading up to Castle Neverwinter in the NWN2 Official Campaign. B) Fountains and Parks...alright, parks you could get in NWN1 with a little effort, but fountains were and seem to still be down on the list. Granted in the NWN2 toolset there was one that I found, but it wasnt of the size or scale to...say...Buckingham Fountain. It was more a small fountain, not an archetectural wonder that you'd expect to find at the Palace of Versailles. The other thing that I found funny actually was the fact that, just like in NWN1, none of the fountains "worked"(Sprayed water) But thats less important I suppose. But still this is something I would most likely have to wait for custom content for. C)Custom Factions. One of the things I had wanted to attempt to do, is with the over 25 different factions I had planned, making it possible for the player to join a particular faction, and based on what faction they were in or if they were in a faction at all, have the NPCs act appropriatly to the player. That however, involves scripting so for the moment that is unfortunatly out... D) Creating Custom Armor. One good thing I have to say about the item creator is it does make it easier to make uniforms look different enough to make me feel good. However, with the current bug involving the coloring/tints of the armor, that is something I will have to wait to be fixed before dealing with...Alrigh, so there is one thing I can do with the toolset :joy: . Well...ok, that and being able to create a transit area map (Which makes it easier to mod in theory because thats less "road" areas that I would have to make) E) Sitting. Something that was surprising about both NWN1 and NWN2 was all the animations that the players could do, but it was only after outsiders came up with creating special scripts that players could actually do stuff like sit down on their own. Granted Ive heard (and seen) that the somewhat buggy sitting script used in NWN was successfully ported over to NWN2 (albiet with the same bugs) so depending on if this is ever publicly released that would also be one less thing that Id have to deal with on my own. F) Creating unique cities/locations. I noticed that many of the tilesets I relied on in NWN1 were not even converted into textures (from what I saw so far anyways) These included the Desert tileset, the Underdark Tilesets, the Winter tileset, etc. Granted however, that one plus of the new way of doing the exterior areas, I will finally be able to make a city built at the top of a volcano (albiet, unfortunatly, without the lava). Also, from what Ive seen, a prison seems out of reach at this moment in time, unless Im mistaken. I also noticed that some armors are impossible to make. One case being it is seemingly impossible to make a PC wearable armor that makes the character look like one of the Shadow Priests. G) Recruitable NPCs. THis also involves scripting...or at the very least a "fill in the blank" prefab script. However this would be absolutely essential for a certain faction. Granted at this time is impossible to create mounts (hence the need for the henchie script to at least somewhat properly make Dragon Riders with dragons that only respond to their given masters. H) Unlockable/Relockable doors. One of my favorite mods from NWN1 was one where players could purchase houseing. The DM would give they, or anyone with them, could have access to the player's home. I thought about trying to recreate something like this, but do not have the scripting no how. I) A script to disable/fizzle/or otherwise interrupt all spellcasting within the area. Can you see a pattern yet. J) Balancing all NPC monsters. Granted this takes practice, but in the spirit of games like Everquest, Id like to be able to make main character bosses that take a group to bring down (if the groups lucky) K) The PWC file. I thought this was kinda weird, that in order for me to even join another persons server, that I would have to download this PWC file. It just doesnt seem as efficient as the NWN version where as long as the mod wasnt using hak files, one could join it. While its not a big deal, it just seems odd. 3) Lighting\Shadows in NWN1 just seemed easier. Now with dynamic...HDR...whatever lighting and realtime shadows and whatnot, having to place each individual light just gets tedious. Unless there is a better wat to get full lighting. (example: standing in the middle of a well lit Gymnasium...standing outside in a field during the daytime, etc) 4) Custom music. One of the other big plusses to my NWN incarnation was that I had custom music for both areas, and music planned for factions, npc themes, etc. For example: I wanted to script one npc "Hero" so that every time they showed up to "save the day" a certain song played. Sort of how in games like Final Fantasy, certain villains have their own particular theme (One could also reference movies like the Halloween or Friday the 13th series) 5) Rakasha...I didnt even notice if certain races were present. I dont think Rakasha were, but I could be wrong. 6) Rivers, Lakes, Harbors, Coastlines, and Water in general. This was one thing I liked about the NWN1 editor, it was simple. Point...click, and in some cases a drag was involved somewhere. I just cant figure out how to make rivers, bricked canals in cities, etc 7) Forests. Again, there was a tileset feature which allowed in the NWN1 editor to make entire forests in minutes. Now it seems like each tree and bush needs to be placed seperately, unless Im missing something entirely. Well thats all I can think of for now. Most of the other things cant be dealt with until custom content is made (For example, the Rakasha were based off of Feudal Japan, and I was lucky enough to have individuals make the custom tilesets for me to achieve an unprecidented city)

What the endgame turns out, in my opinion and experience, has nothing to do with the editor, and maybe not even the devotion or skill of the programmers, but the reception by the community and to an even greater extent the modding community. Look at a game like DooM. It came out in the 1990s and survived long enough to be re-released for Windows XP in the early 2000s. Look at Westwood Studios games, same thing. Heck, look at Neverwinter Nights if you need a more contemporary example. When compared graphics wise to other games comming out during that time, there were some, maybe even alot, of games that had it beat. But the editor was so easy to use, for both beginner and expert that these games and their modding communities survived longer than probably expected. Look at Halflife 1. People are still modding for that and its been out how long with the most recent incatnation of Halflife 2 having been released a year or two ago? Its my opinion that its the gaming/modding community that keeps a game afloat. Look at some games that were released buggy (or even some that were not) that may have been beautiful to look at but lack something else (be it gameplay, modablility, etc) they died so fast most companies "disown" them, not even bothering to mention it on company websites or to even offer support for the games (And I could name quite a few, and a few more that I cant even tell what they were thinking when they disowned such great games). I dont know how many developers log on to a game like Neverwinter Nights II and see how few people are on. There may be alot of servers, but most of them are empty or servers running the campaign module. The channel chats are more or less dead. And with respect, its not the gameplay. Personally I think its sad whats happening or whats happened to the Neverwinter Nights II community. It definitly didnt take off like Neverwinter Nights did, and definitly not to a greater extent that I had personally expected from both the screenshots I saw and the information about the "more user friendly" and "improved" editor. Actually I believe the exact quote from the bos reads: "Host your own solo and multiplayer D&D adventures using the improved Neverwinter Nights 2 toolset" Im not a programmer, Im a writer, Im an artist. I spent years drawing and planning and writing, trying to make something special. And while I missed the glory days of Neverwinter Nights online community (to which I had a campus firewall to thank for that), I looked forward and planned further under the expectations that I had come to expect through using Neverwinter Nights toolset and come to expect the same program with better and easier to use features through the official statements I read on various online sites. And, Im sorry to say, I was let down badly. The game itself however is a real masterpiece, and if from quotes like this "I cant believe the devs could actually have made the official campaign using this. - Anonymous Online User" then they truely get my utmost respect. But again, they not only have years of experience programming, but they made the editor program so they have no excuse why they couldnt use it. Its just upsetting that they could so easily forget the other people. And granted, Im not saying its the Developers fault (Because God only knows those guys have made awsome games (By my records and research, I believe they have yet to make a flop...though Im still wondering why a multiplayer mode for Morrowind/Oblivion was not made ), because after all a trend is a trend, and theres no helping that. Heck, other companies were doing this well before even Neverwinter Nights I or heck, even Morrowind. But as a fashion designer would say "Trends are made to be broken" and probably even more appropriatly, what a recent film director/animator said "If you cant make something and truely call it your own, what point then is there in making it?" I dont know, maybe I end up waiting for Neverwinter Nights III to come out, or at the very least "The Idiots Guide to the Neverwinter Nights II Toolset" (Which is pretty bad, because considering I can figure out how to use just about anything usually just by looking at it and then a half hour at most, and considering I can get a 27 on an ACT but not figure this out, does make me feel abit bad...at least on the ironic side ). I used the "World Editors Guide" and it didnt help much. Needless to say, Im a man with a need for efficiency. And when I can do an entire city block in one click, as opposed to first laying down the streets, then finding and selecting the right curb, then placing each building individually - its not hard to determine which is more efficient. And If I could just go back and do it for Neverwinter Nights I, I would, however without a community anymore (From what Ive heard anyways), theres no real point in doing it. Probably the biggest and most real disappointment with the toolset was not so much that a dream was crushed, but that they had something perfect to work with and simply add more features remaining true to the origional toolset program, and THAT would have been enough. All that being said, keep up the good work with the games, the stories are always great! ---- The point is, Ive read the tutorials, at least those off the Bioware NWNII website, and Ive read the books. I guess Im too old fashioned (which is not good because Im only) and miss the good ol days of the true Sandbox editor. But alas

Ive tried all the editors listed, reading the tutorials both provided by the developers of those softwares AND purchasing additional materials as needed (Yes, even the NWN toolset guide) I guess, to somewhat rephrase my concern is not so much that their overly complicated for non-professionals, but that their also inefficient from a productional standpoint. This meaning that it takes more time to crank out one area, level, zone (whatever the case may be) than the older ones. Take for example NWN vs NWN2 I could do 12 zones in half a day, complete with scripts, music, all necessary custom items, characters, etc. And have them on the same quality, if not better, than those of the nwn campaign. Now compared to 1/2 -> 1 zone per 2 days (current estimated best) I Wouldnt know, have yet to complete one, even after using the PreRelease of the toolset to date. Still trying to figure out how to find everything that I knew how to use from NWN 1... And I even read the additional World Editors Guide 5 times cover, to cover. And, with respect, Ive looked at Oblivion's editor and after reading the tutorials, I still cant figure out how to add new areas, etc. And Im a very fast learner. And in reality, Ive asked 4 people I know who actually work with game companies or are double majors (Math/Computer Science) and they have the same concerns I do about them being overly complicated. If those guys cant figure them out. Its pretty much a dream that less experienced people will and thats just disturbing to me. Like I said, most of these "new age" editors are targeted at people who are either in the field or are getting into the field (at best) of computer game design. Not the people who want to learn how to do who might have no experience programming, modding, etc.

Ive noticed something recently, and its honestly started to scare me from a modders perspective, in game editors in the past few years. Some of the games include, but are not limited too: FarCry Doom III/Quake IV Neverwinter Nights II Oblivion Morrowind Dawn of War series Halflife Halflife 2 I dont see how so many companies now a days want to make overly complex toolsets/editors for their games. Granted, from a person whos going to school and double majoring mathmatics and computer sciece, its probably great. However more and more I've seen companies stop taking into account that a majority of modders ,or people otherwise using the toolset if nothing but to mess around with, do not have the experience or knowledge that professional game designers have. During this process towards "improving" editing software, it seems they've thrown "User friendliness" to the curb. I wont say that all games have done this recently, Pariah being one of them, with their point-n-click...almost Paintshop Pro style editor. Even the origional editor for Neverwinter Nights I was great, it was simple and yet still powerful if you had experience programming scripts (which I didnt and still dont). I actually loved the origional NWN toolset because if its one thing Im good at, its making things look nice, and with that I had all that I needed to do the job easily and quickly (after just a tiny bit of practice) So I guess my question is, excluding going back to school (for which I have no patience for), what does it take to get by the ever growing learning curves for these programs....and dont say practice, because that does no good when you cant even get started .