What about atmosphere compared to PoE1?

ThacoBell · May 17, 2018

I am SO GLAD PoE2's tone is where it is. It strikes a good balance between "fun" and "serious". PoE1 was so tenacously gloomy, that I could never take it fully seriously. In fact, I would have found the setting and story wholly unsatisfying, if it wasn't possible to improve the situation though my characters actions.

@Voss

It was Woedica's curse that caused the hollowborn crisis in the first place. Heck the Saint's War was Eothas' attempt to stop Woedica from starting all that crap.

Edited May 17, 2018 by ThacoBell

DaKatarn · May 17, 2018

It’s your point of view.

I don’t love this easy humor in everything in « Modern » pop-culture like Marvel. This « ****-off » spirit as argument of modernity. Serious theme is seen as boring...

It’s an infantilizing effect « it’s too dark for me, I’m a crying baby. I wanna just lol and don’t care about anything».

Dark and serious themes are deeper, CRPG isn’t Fortnite and the easy entertainement isn’t the main goal.

There is SO MANY superficial, fun and light games actually even in the RPG category. So Pillars of Eternity was an exception and it was welcome.

Edited May 17, 2018 by DaKatarn

DaKatarn · May 17, 2018

Ty for your feedback, your argument about Diablo 1 and Diablo 3 is efficient..

A gothic ambience for the 1 and a cartoon wow-like with many jokes for the 3. What is the cause? Millenials’ weakness?

I’m agree with you, I hope a back in European Medieval Theme for the 3. Maybe in the Adryan Empire. IMO Baldur’s gate 2 was better for exotic atmosphere without distorting the Medieval fantasy theme.

Edited May 17, 2018 by DaKatarn

DaKatarn · May 17, 2018

Bug

Edited May 17, 2018 by DaKatarn

daven · May 17, 2018

I like it, why do people go to the beach? To have a good time!

Walking on the beaches, looking at the peacheeessss!

Mannock · May 17, 2018

You actually might feel disappointed, because in my mind (or rather so far, which is some 30 odd hours into the game) Deadfire is not as gloomy as PoE1 was. That doesn't mean the game isn't serious or pandering to some sort of teen crowd, but it feels a tad more humorous and with generally more vivid surroundings I think this is a heartier game. Which in my book is good cause I found PoE1 a bit too gloomy to the point that I only played the game once. I definetely see myself playing more Deadfire even when I have finished the game.

Sedrefilos · May 17, 2018

Being different doesen't mean it's worse. Both games have great atmosphere for what they are. I don't like the childish atmosphere of most j"r"pgs so I don't play them. I don't believe Eora has a single tone either. Pillars 1 had it's tone. Worldbuild it's just typical fantasy with some unique twists here and there. Pillars 3 might be in The Living Lands, climbing mountains and such and have even different atmosphere that Deadfire. Who knows. No one said every Pillars game should be dark and whatever. And to be honest, I didn't feel Pillars 1 was that dark. I wouldn't sau it's dark fantasy. It just has a grim tone n the first 1/3 of it maybe.

theBalthazar · May 17, 2018

Personnaly I love the atmosphere of POE2. Far more inspired and well made.

Mazisky · May 17, 2018

Deadfire atmosphere isn't worse, just different. But PoE 1 classic setting was better imho.

For the same reason i liked BG more than BG2, but it's all to personal tastes.

I am always looking for isometric games with classical medieval fantasy setting, but there are very few of them (modern games i mean).

Edited May 17, 2018 by Mazisky

Sarakash · May 17, 2018

Deadfire has a different cultural backdrop and therefore different themes but it´s done pretty darn well. The setting is, in my opinion consistend with the worldbuilding done in PoE 1 regarding coloniallism.

It doesn´t feel like romanticised pirate shlog, it still has a dark tone and mature themes in many places. The humor presented is grim at times and doesn´t usually break the character. I would argue that gallows humor is a way for people to deal with difficult situations, so if presented, it doesn´t feel inappropriate.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Sarakash

Mazisky · May 17, 2018

The best balance example of Humor and grim is the Witcher 3.

Lot of dark, grim, and dramatic situations, but also lot of light-hearted and fun stuff to contrast that. It's almost perfect in this regard.

Phyriel · May 17, 2018

Its not only the setting that is more cheerful but evil rpg aspect is gone pretty much, I haven't found anything comparable to poe 1 sending a child to be devoured by a dude on top of defiance bay tower for extra stats or sacrificing one of your party member in gruesome skaen effigy ritual. Its not just the setting of deadfire, its like a different universe in which your char, if it was evil in poe 1 it can no longer be as evil in deadfire.

I have a really hard time roleplaying as evil sadistic monk type having no evil story companions to choose from, all story companions so far are a merry squad trading jokes and having their soft dramas. The most evil you can get in dialog options is a grumpy indiana jones on his bad day... thats about it tbh.

Crucis · May 17, 2018

DaKatarn, I'm hardly a kid. And I wouldn't have agreed with you even before the first Marvel movie had been released. Entertainment should be about fun, not oppressively depressing. I don't give a flying bleep about "dark and serious themes" in entertainment. Never have and never will. And I don't think that it had damn all to do with modern culture or modernity. It's about making entertainment fun and enjoyable! People have been making movies fun and enjoyable, rather than dark and gloomy, for a long time. This is nothing new. Was the original Star Wars dark and gloomy? Were any of the Back to the Future movies dark and gloomy? No, those movies were fun and entertaining! Movie makers with a lick of sense know that people are much more interested in paying to watch good, fun, escapist entertainment than dark and gloomy bore fests.

People want to be entertained and have fun while escaping from their reality. So what if it's "superficial"? There's not a chance in hell that I'd ever take an RPG seriously as a serious work of art, like some super serious "novel". Of course, I don't give a flying fig about them either. Even when I read books (which I do quite often, BTW), I am again reading for enjoyment, not to read some super-serious, pretentious crap. When I was in high school (all those decades ago), the English teacher could make me read that crap. Today, there's not a chance in hell that I'd pay one thin dime for it, let alone read it.

Dodo00d · May 17, 2018

No idea what your were playing but D:OS 2 is much more seroius and much darker than Pillars of Eternity. In D:OS 2 the magisters turn people into killing machines and the first isalnd is a concentartion camp.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Dodo00d

Ninjamestari · May 17, 2018

PoE1 was dull and boring. There wasn't any life to the world and the atmosphere was way too gloomy in a gray boring way instead of an entertaining black and oppressive way. PoE2 has a lighter atmosphere and I very much like it; this is the stuff that makes me really feel that I'm on an adventure. PoE1 on the other hand didn't.

ThacoBell · May 17, 2018

Dark and depressing is not automatically meaningful and deep. So much "Dark, Mature" fantasy comes across as so much teen angst and less adult than a story just written for a stories sake *coughwitchercough*.

Sarakash · May 17, 2018

I generally agree with your overall assessment (even if I liked the witcher). In my opinion, a particular theme doesn´t make for a mature story, but how much it explores it´s given themes. For instance, is it willing to dig deeper by looking at it from different angles?

One of my favorite novels is A Long Way Down which features a heavy theme, but that doesn´t mean that there is no place for humor in that story.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Sarakash

algroth · May 17, 2018

I have yet to finish the game so I cannot lend a final opinion regarding the matter, but here's my thoughts so far...

So, one of the things I loved about the first Pillars was precisely its atmosphere. It goes to speak to how subjective all of this is since I've often heard criticisms against it for being too "traditional" and so on, yet precisely what I found interesting about it is that there was enough of that existential, metaphysical and doom-laden feel of Mask of the Betrayer in Pillars to really make it feel like its own thing, or at least a game with Obsidian's distinct authorial touch. What's more, whereas I agree with what Thac0Bell says above about dark not always meaning "mature" or "deep", I do feel that much of my feelings towards the first Pillars came largely because of the substance and not merely the style, and I do think it more than justifies its seriousness with its approach to its themes and so on. To again use his example, we aren't in Witcher territory.

With regards to Deadfire I feel that there are moments where the atmosphere of the above shines through. I think that Pillars' doom plot was a lot more front and centre than Deadfire's though, what with the Hollowborn tinging the whole region with a Children of Men-style sensation of despair, hopelessness and stagnation, but there are still hints of something cataclysmic occuring within the setting of Deadfire, and I am enjoying a lot both those touches as well as the many hints throughout to a sort of mythological place in the style of Jauja or El Dorado or so on, which I feel feed a nice dose of otherworldliness into the exploration aspect of the game, which is definitely a huge part of it. But these moments aren't ubiquitous or particularly predominant in my opinion - for the most part the atmosphere is instead more adventure-like, with hints of period political tension and so on which do add a fair bit to its overall colonial feel. It is more wondrous and exotic than the first game without a doubt, and I do feel that there's a very well-achieved "New World" feel to it all which lends the adventure its own unique touch. With all this in mind, it's a pretty different experience to the first game, and I would reckon it *is* more light-hearted, but that doesn't immediately mean it's goofier or anything of the sort - I would even go ahead and say that there is still not a whole lot of humour in it (I've had a few more chuckles in the first Pillars so far than I've had in this one), though I do not hold that against it either.

Anyhow, apologies for my rambling post but I hope it's helpful.

Edited May 17, 2018 by algroth

DaKatarn · May 17, 2018

I think that we don't speak about the same thing.

I'm not saying "dark gothic or emo dark teen theme"= automated fun or a good story.

What I mean by "entertainment" is the immersion, the feelings and heavy choices. It's the more stimulating in CRPG with the system of fight and theorybuild IMO.

I find deep story and "serious theme" terrifically stimulating and in CRPG it's the deep of the world, the psychological situation of companions and the cornelian dilemma wich are the heart of the game. We feel more involved in this case and it's the main goal of any story.

It's why a RPG more funny in art design or theme is less immersive for me because the situations are mechanically lighter, less cornelian, so superficial and go at least. I don't care about a high fantasy fairy tale without any dramatic intensity.

Tragedy and trauma are powerfull markers and in PoE1 many side quest had a deep and hard backstory like the sacrifice for the machine or the noble of Dryford searching his niece...I like too the possibility of made bad or cruel choices.

In a way it's like the difficulty debate for fighting, "more the challenge is big, bigger is the satisfaction" (No pain no Gain effect). For the story is the same, "more the choice is cornelian and hard, bigger is the impact".

I don't say that a heavy atmosphere is necessary to be hung by a story but it's a good way to be involved. I can have fun with a good adventure story too but my love for Pillars' universe was made by the dramatic, mature and gloomy atmosphere.

It was a main part of the first game's identity and it was a success.

Edited May 17, 2018 by DaKatarn

Taurus · May 17, 2018

This. Unless you wan't to see the same ol "castles and dungeons" of a classic medieval fantasy.

I, on the other hand, was glad to see a city build alongside a mountain where the Queen sits on a throne adorned with fishs.

DaKatarn · May 17, 2018

I'm agree with you, there is no automated link here. The style and quality of writting are essential but it's a problem of shape, not bottom.

If the theme is too light, it's harder to make dramatic choices. And make hard choice is the adult way.

DaKatarn · May 17, 2018

As say higher a "dark theme" isn't enough. What about "concentration camp" and "killing machines" if the character and art design are cartoon or if a malicious cat tells you a good old joke?

algroth · May 17, 2018

This is a bit of a departure from the topic, but I see this argument come up often and every time I think it's utter horse****. Entertainment can be found anywhere and derived from anything, depending on what the audience is looking for. Do you think that the people who love Apocalypse Now are not entertained by that film? Yet one would hardly dispute that the film in dark and depressing. In fact, one would argue that the *atmosphere*, and what the film generates in them through it, is one of its most attractive points and that in no way would the film be as *enjoyable* were it a more light-hearted venture. Do you think people watch Game of Thrones thinking the dark and brooding aesthetic makes it any less entertaining? Or The Dark Knight for that matter?

Audiences are entertained by what makes them engage to something, often emotionally, be it light-hearted, be it dark and depressing. You'd reckon tragedies would have never survived the roughly 2500 years they have if audiences didn't like them. Entertainment should not "be" like anything, it should only be what the author or artist or performer feels is more adequate to the piece they are making. And yes, some will hit the mark more than others - but that's not because some recognized an inherent universal flaw in a certain approach or some bobbins like that. As far as I'm concerned Pillars had exactly the right tone. Deadfire has its own, and so far it's been also equally enjoyable. It's fine, they make me feel different things and I enjoy them differently at an equal level for that, I don't put one at the stake because it's "not how entertainment should be". What a ridiculously narrow-minded view to have, really.

Edited May 17, 2018 by algroth

ThacoBell · May 17, 2018

I do want to clarify that I don't think dark=bad. But it has to be balanced properly. I can't take the Witcher seriously AT ALL, its so over the top with everything being miserable, it comes across as a teen TRYING to be mature, but missing the nuance of a mature examination. PoE1 ALMOST gets that bad, but is largely saved because, through action, things can be made better. Its not "life sucks and nothing can be done about it" but "Life sucks sometimes, but we can work to make t better." Which is a good and realistic message.

Sedrefilos · May 17, 2018

Dark is overrated and irrational I think. I do like it, of course, but mostly not in a rpg because sometimes it feels unreal and affects choices. Deadfire is more realistic, thought-out and grounded as setting than Pillars 1 imo. Gods and souls aside, of course.

What about atmosphere compared to PoE1?

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