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[MECHANICS] Power level compilation thread

power level mechanics

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#41
Boeroer

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Yes - PL duration and dmg bonus is added to base and this works multiplicative. That makes the +7 PL for Livegiver's spells (when shifted) much more powerful than one would expect as soon as you add other healing bonuses as well.
This also explains why empower was so ridiculous in beta and had to be tuned down.

And also here I guess: the designers didn't know how empower/PL actually work "under the hood".

Edited by Boeroer, 10 July 2018 - 08:22 PM.


#42
kilay

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Thnks for this in deep explanation, really useful , just a question about that
 

Scrolls: function exactly like spells with one critical difference: instead of using your power level, it substitutes half your Arcana skill for it. Regardless of the spell on the scroll, the spell is treated as PL0. If you have a bonus to your power level (from items, potions, or whatnot), those also boost scroll power 1:1. Might, intellect, and perception have no effect on scrolls. (Note: I suspect it uses half your Arcana skill because scroll strength is already tied to arcana based on the minimum required to use one, so Obsidian didn't want you to get further insane scaling from a scroll of maelstrom, for example.)

 

I did a mod where i've changed the requirements of the the scrolls (levels & skills), so following what you stated , have those scroll spells a greater PL based on the new requirements ?



#43
thelee

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Thnks for this in deep explanation, really useful , just a question about that
 

Scrolls: function exactly like spells with one critical difference: instead of using your power level, it substitutes half your Arcana skill for it. Regardless of the spell on the scroll, the spell is treated as PL0. If you have a bonus to your power level (from items, potions, or whatnot), those also boost scroll power 1:1. Might, intellect, and perception have no effect on scrolls. (Note: I suspect it uses half your Arcana skill because scroll strength is already tied to arcana based on the minimum required to use one, so Obsidian didn't want you to get further insane scaling from a scroll of maelstrom, for example.)

 

I did a mod where i've changed the requirements of the the scrolls (levels & skills), so following what you stated , have those scroll spells a greater PL based on the new requirements ?

 

I don't think the levels need to be higher. Scrolls in general got a huge nerf in 1.2, so unless you really want to gimp scrolls it might be worth seeing how the current in-game levels work out.


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#44
kilay

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Thnks for this in deep explanation, really useful , just a question about that
 

Scrolls: function exactly like spells with one critical difference: instead of using your power level, it substitutes half your Arcana skill for it. Regardless of the spell on the scroll, the spell is treated as PL0. If you have a bonus to your power level (from items, potions, or whatnot), those also boost scroll power 1:1. Might, intellect, and perception have no effect on scrolls. (Note: I suspect it uses half your Arcana skill because scroll strength is already tied to arcana based on the minimum required to use one, so Obsidian didn't want you to get further insane scaling from a scroll of maelstrom, for example.)

 

I did a mod where i've changed the requirements of the the scrolls (levels & skills), so following what you stated , have those scroll spells a greater PL based on the new requirements ?

 

I don't think the levels need to be higher. Scrolls in general got a huge nerf in 1.2, so unless you really want to gimp scrolls it might be worth seeing how the current in-game levels work out.

 

 

I nerfed it anymore after this reply from Yodamaxx

"The idea is good, though i think the better way of making scrolls less availiable while staying reasonable is tieing them to wizard progression. Not to wizard as a class but simply to make new lvl scroll availiable when your usual wizard would gain new spells thus getting. say. 9th lvl scrolls on character lvl 19 so the arcana requirement for lvl 9th spells should be around 19 maybe more and so on. I think its quite reasonable because arcana is a magic science for wizard-wannabes who lack the talent to control the grimoire but still want to study and use magic, thus the levelling of an arcana character should be similar to that of the wizard, perhaps even slower. Right now even with your changes 9th lvl scrolls are availiable too early //9because of equipment/class/profession/pet/buff thingy bonuses i got em at char lvl 9-10) and because of hilarious amount of money in this game they are way too easy to make'


Edited by kilay, 11 July 2018 - 08:23 AM.


#45
thelee

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i was putting together a new build and noticed that a lot of PL scaling has been stealth-nerfed at some point, so I updated the OP.

 

TL;DR: at least the major culprits I checked no longer get more than 1/2 projectile per PL, they all get 1/2 projectile per PL. 

 

In addition, universally all damage/heal spells now only get +5% damage/healing per PL.

 

The net effect of this is that PL scaling is less disproportionately in favor of projectile damage spells (though they still get more benefit than e.g. debuffs or buffs).


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#46
dunehunter

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i was putting together a new build and noticed that a lot of PL scaling has been stealth-nerfed at some point, so I updated the OP.

 

TL;DR: at least the major culprits I checked no longer get more than 1/2 projectile per PL, they all get 1/2 projectile per PL. 

 

In addition, universally all damage/heal spells now only get +5% damage/healing per PL.

 

The net effect of this is that PL scaling is less disproportionately in favor of projectile damage spells (though they still get more benefit than e.g. debuffs or buffs).

 

PL is still a multiplier for weapon abilities, like @Manveru123 explained, it makes low level abilities like Crippling Strike and FoD more powerful than high level abilities because like when u are lvl 20, your Crippling Strike will have an invisible x1.35 multiplier to the damage, and this is not lash not damage bonus, but an unique bonus. Also item like Magran's Favor, Sun&Moon makes FoD extremely powerful, paladin dual wielding these can do much more damage with FoD than a two hander FoD due to the additional PL, and I mean the first strike of FoD already surpass a 2 hander FoD due to higher PL/base damage.


Edited by dunehunter, 19 September 2018 - 09:58 PM.

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#47
Boeroer

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This is also true for some low lvl spells vs high level spells afaik. Insect Swarm nearly does the same dmg per tick (over a longer time) as Plague of Insects (much bigger AoE though). THis usually is balanced by higer base damage of the high level stuff. So it's quite easy to balance this because every spall has its own base damage which can be tweaked rel. savely without breaking stuff.

Problem with weapon based abilites is that you can't increase the base damage (of the weapon) to balance high level abilites with low level abilites that get more PL bonus. You often get an additive dmg bonus. Those usually show less impressive results - even if they go quite high. I somethimes think that some devs or designers still don't fully grasp how different those things behave once you pwergame a bit. Putting some kind of lower but multiplicative bonus like a lash would be a better solution in this case.

Another thing is "double" PL scaling with Transcended Suffering: your fists' PEN, ACC and add. dmg bonus scale with PL - as well as the dmg bonus of let's say Stunning Surge.

Edited by Boeroer, 19 September 2018 - 10:34 PM.

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#48
dunehunter

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Some quick math, battle axe base damage in average is 16, greatsword is 21. With +4 PL from magran and sun/moon, you raise the base damage of axe for FoD to 16*1.2=19.2, and with lash from magran, you pretty much do same damage as a 2her FoD with your main weapon FoD, and then plus u hit enemy with offhand weapon/FoD, not to mention the much lower recovery time from fast weapon... And if you are kind wayfarer, you heal twice with DW... The balance here is totally screwed imo.



#49
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I think the main problem is that FoD is keyworded with fire (which is good) and that +4 Fire PL then leads to a dmg increase of the physical base dmg of the ability (no increase of the burning lash which would make sense but instead the physical base dmg - which doesn't make too much sense). Only universal PL increase should lead to an increase of physical weapon base dmg with an ability. Elemental PLs should only increase the respective elemental dmg, not the underlying pierce/crush/slash/raw dmg. If an ability somehow deals elemental base dmaage then sure: go ahead and increase its base damage with elemental PLs. For example if you use FIrebrand then +fire PLs shoul increase the base damage, since it's base damage is burn. But not in case of a normal estoc or a glowing axe that still does basic slash damage (not burn). 

 

If you'd take Bleak Walker's FoD (which is keyworded with fire and acid) and take another item that also increases corrode PL you would see the base dmg (not the lash damage) rise even more.

 

The mechanics of what influences physical dmg and what influences the elemental (lash) dmg are a bit intermingled here.


Edited by Boeroer, 19 September 2018 - 11:13 PM.

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#50
dunehunter

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I think the main problem is that FoD is keyworded with fire (which is good) and that +4 Fire PL then leads to a dmg increase of the physical base dmg of the ability (no increase of the burning lash which would make sense but instead the physical base dmg - which doesn't make too much sense). Only universal PL increase should lead to an increase of physical weapon base dmg with an ability. Elemental PLs should only increase the respective elemental dmg, not the underlying pierce/crush/slash/raw dmg. If an ability somehow deals elemental base dmaage then sure: go ahead and increase its base damage with elemental PLs. For example if you use FIrebrand then +fire PLs shoul increase the base damage, since it's base damage is burn. But not in case of a normal estoc or a glowing axe that still does basic slash damage (not burn). 

 

If you'd take Bleak Walker's FoD (which is keyworded with fire and acid) and take another item that also increases corrode PL you would see the base dmg (not the lash damage) rise even more.

 

The mechanics of what influences physical dmg and what influences the elemental (lash) dmg are a bit intermingled here.

 

Yeah I totally agree. Like in PoE 1, if you have that scion of flame talent, it only affects your fire lash and fire damage, but in DF, it increase your physical base damage just because your ability has a fire keyword and u have bonus PL for fire keyword, how weird it is. Imo it should only increase your lash damage because it's fire based.



#51
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Exactly.



#52
Hulk'O'Saurus

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Scrolls benefit quite a bit from power levels. 



#53
kmbogd

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I wonder why hasn't this thread been pinned. The OP does a good job explaining one of the more convoluted mechanics that is nowhere documented (especially for martial abilities).

 

later edit: @thelee

 

I've seen that there has been a change in the system, perhaps during patch 3.0. Now the ability level penetration scaling is (AbilityLevel-1)x2x0.25

 

Also I wanted to make a suggestion. I've seen that you use the term Power Level to refer to 3 different things, this creates a bit of confusion.Of course if you understand already how the system works it's easy to see to which of the 3 things you are referring when talking about Power Level in a certain context. However, for the people that don't already know the system it will be easier if you differentiate between the 3.

 

The first concept that I would suggest that you rename in your explanation is the principle of Ability Level instead of saying Power Level (in the context of an ability). I think this is a fitting name already used by the game. There is indeed a correlation between Ability Levels and character's Power Levels in that in the general case an ability becomes accessible to a character only when character's Power Level reaches at least the Ability Level. From this stems probably the reason for you naming these 2 concepts with the same name. But like you have very well exemplified with VileThorns, this is not always the case. Another difference is that during the game the PowerLevel (of a character) increases but that of the AbilityLevel always stays the same.

 

The second concept that needs to be made less confusing in my opinion is that of scaling difference (between a character's Power Level and the Ability Level of the spell/martial_ability he/she is trying to use). Calling this concept also Power Level is ambiguous. I would suggest Power Level Difference (PLD) but anythings else that distinguishes it from the character's Power Level works.

 

Other than this, just wanted to thank you for your post. It was very useful and helped me to better understand some of the stuff I was seeing and thought of (erroneously) as bugged.


Edited by kmbogd, 04 October 2018 - 04:22 AM.






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