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With the new PotD difficulty, there are a couple of facts about fights that make ciphers a lot better than I've seen people recognize:

 

(1) Enemies are a lot more powerful and harder to kill. That makes charm effects correspondingly more powerful. I've seen now a couple of accounts of fights that are otherwise impossible being turned by a well-timed cipher charm spell. One ambush in Neketaka I found unbeatable, but I read one account of winning it because of a charm spell that hit a rogue, and the rogue killed a wizard, and boom, the fight is doable now.

 

(2) Enemies are a lot more powerful and harder to kill. (Yeah, repetition for rhetorical effect.) That makes fights last a lot longer, which means that on harder fights you are going to run out of resources. So classes with renewable resources -- chanter and cipher -- are quite a bit more powerful, as they still have their best abilities long after all the wizard spell casts (and all other finite class resources) are spent.

 

Cipher -- all varieties -- should therefore be higher. I'd take a cipher over a druid/wizard any day with the new difficulty, especially a multiclass cipher (for survivability purposes).

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With the new PotD difficulty, there are a couple of facts about fights that make ciphers a lot better than I've seen people recognize:

 

(1) Enemies are a lot more powerful and harder to kill. That makes charm effects correspondingly more powerful. I've seen now a couple of accounts of fights that are otherwise impossible being turned by a well-timed cipher charm spell. One ambush in Neketaka I found unbeatable, but I read one account of winning it because of a charm spell that hit a rogue, and the rogue killed a wizard, and boom, the fight is doable now.

 

(2) Enemies are a lot more powerful and harder to kill. (Yeah, repetition for rhetorical effect.) That makes fights last a lot longer, which means that on harder fights you are going to run out of resources. So classes with renewable resources -- chanter and cipher -- are quite a bit more powerful, as they still have their best abilities long after all the wizard spell casts (and all other finite class resources) are spent.

 

Cipher -- all varieties -- should therefore be higher. I'd take a cipher over a druid/wizard any day with the new difficulty, especially a multiclass cipher (for survivability purposes).

 

Druid yes, Wizard no.

 

Chill Fog is probably the best early ability in the game. Persistant damage and Blind.

 

Basically someone Blinded is Flanked (Deflection reduced by 10 and -1 armour), -5 Perception and -10 accuracy (-15 to hit overall) and reduced sight range (has to get closer to use ranged weapons and spells).

 

Other Blinds can miss and then you have wasted time and resources whereas Chill Fog gets multiple attempts.

 

Necrotic Lance for single target nuking at PL 2 (great for killing Mages) and anti everything Fire Ball at PL 3.

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I don't quite understand understand the hate for Priests. They're plenty effective and have nice buffs and spells. You can do without them, but you're still more effective with one than without one.

 

Bleak Walker/Priest of Wael is a really nice combo that dishes out a ton of damage and has a ton of healing and defensive options.

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Want to play a dragon in Deadfire?

 

Try my subclass mod here!
https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/76

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Hum, in fact there is few cool stuff with priest.

 

Supress affliction (Against afflictions)

Barring death door. (Immortal)

Triumph of the crusader (Strong +200 heal)

Shining beacon (Debuff + Overtime damage)

Devotion for the faithful (even if... now it is... just OK frankly for 4.5s of casting time...)

Dire blessing (Perception inspiration)

 

BUT...

 

3 of theses spells are on the same line. The rest... is OK but not particularly crazy.

 

A +5 with inspiration is not bad... but... I don't know, you can take a another melee, perhaps would be better...

+A lot of inspiration are already here :

 

You have 2 berserkers ? Crusader is useless for 2/5 members of crew.

You have 2 fighters ? Dire blessing is useless for 2/5 members of crew.

 

ETC ETC.

 

So, yes Priest is not totally bad, but he his not good. Low tiers is perfect for him.

Edited by theBalthazar

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I disagree with this, but I can't really argue against your subjective opinion.

 

In my opinion, if you buff your party, it means your damage dealers can use their limited resources to deal more damage instead of buffing themselves. Priests are the only class that has at-the-ready AOE healing and affliction clears. There are plenty of spells I could pick out that help the party a lot. In terms of "will my party be worse with a priest or without" it's pretty clear that it will almost always be better.

 

I think most people just play the priest as a heal-bot, but picking the best buffs/debuffs is also part of their arsenal as well.


Want to play a dragon in Deadfire?

 

Try my subclass mod here!
https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/76

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My thoughts:

 

Strong - Fighter, Monk, Druid, Rogue, Chanter

 

Decent - Paladin, Wizard, Barbarian

 

Weak - Cipher, Priest, Ranger

Edited by Verde

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TOP TIERS

Berserker (Barbarian) Powerful subclass feature, con easy to bypass with gear.

Troubadour (Chanter) Use top tier chants, but build phrases twice as fast.

Bleak walker (Paladin) Paladins in general: Good defense, quickheal, good accuracy/damage buff, zeal on kill, party buffs.

Goldpact knights (Paladin) Paladins in general: Good defense, quickheal, good accuracy/damage buff, zeal on kill, party buffs.

Kind wayfarers (Paladin) Paladins in general: Good defense, quickheal, good accuracy/damage buff, zeal on kill, party buffs.

 

HIGH TIERS

Base Wizard, Variety of spells. Good Spells. 18 good spells. Switch spells mid combat. But no passives.

Wizard (Evoker) Best spells are evocation and benefit from PL. Some top spells here. Ilussion/Enchantment have low recovery anyway.

Assassin (Rogue) Buffed. Good dps with SA and passives. We are not tanking. But bonus is critical when it is worth.

Street fighter (Rogue) Massive bonus.

Nalpazca (Monk) You can get High with damage and wounds.

Helwalker (Monk) Use Dance of Death. Be ranged or side fighter.

Shieldbearer of St Elcga (Paladin) Paladins in general. Subclass modificatio is niche in use.

 

MID  HI TIERS

Skald (Chanter) [MC UP] Need some help with criticals. But then generate phrases even faster. There are some great invocations like Sound of Voice.

Base Chanter Versalite effects, infinite pool, can charm, heal, kill, cc, debuff, buff, summon. But cant long nuke at start.

Beckoner (Chanter) You could do better summoning with Trubadour (fatter minions more often). But you are still Chanter, and may as well ignore Summons as beckoner, which is against the sub name, but works. Also summonig army of scelies or wurm 6pack may be enuff.

Shattered pillar (Monk) [MC UP] Turning Wheel less good

Base Monk Consistent high damage, survival, can take enemies 1by1. Could do things with on hit weapons.

Darcozzi Paladini (Paladin) Small fire shield. But still paladin.

Base Rogue High dps with SA, easy to trigger SA. Good burst Damage. But expansive abillities.

Lifegiver (Druid) Druid healing is good, and now it is much better. We dont care about summons.

Fury (Druid) Free +1 Penetration with many spells. On this build we dont care about healing.

Base Druid Good spells. Mix of damage and healing, some buffs. Emergency Spiritsift if run out of spells. But some tiers empty (7th), and spiritshift no much for legendary gear and everything.

 

MID LOW TIERS

Ascendant (Cipher) [MC UP] Penalty is minimal, and we can just take it. But bonus is insane when it trigger. Can spam high level powers. MC even better since many cipher spells are bad.

Sharpshooter (Ranger) Just more dps with ranged, and we are ranged anyway.

Ghost Heart (Ranger) Dont heal your pet. Get new one. No real malus.

Base Barbarian Could attack very hard, and fast, Can regenerate rage. AOE potencial. But not much utility.

Devoted (Fighter) [MC UP] Top tiers not that useful. Dual damage weapon is universali enought.
 

LOW TIERS (MC UP TIER)

Unbroken (Fighter) [MC UP] Enemies dont move around that often. Overall lower damage due to shield. Tanking alone does not imput enought. (need mc to support party)

Base Fighter [MC UP] Have high accuracy, and resilence. But less party utility CC, and aoe potencial. Staying alive is not enought.

Black jacket (Fighter) [MC UP] Fighter passive is not essencial. But Black Jacket is for gimmick shooters. There is a jacket which does same.

All priest [MC UP] No passives. Small spell selection. Holy radiance not great. Deity pick unimportant. Tier 5 spells uninspiring. Not enought good spells at low levels.

Trickster (Rogue) [MC UP] You can just play Wizard/Rogue. Limited use of Trickster spells since not enought guile.

Stalker (Ranger) [MC UP] No Driving Flight for melee Rangers.

Base Ranger There is enought good abilities and passives. Just pet is easy to kill, and does less damage top levels.

Beguiler (Cipher) [MC UP] A lot of effort needed but not enought good powers to use subclass bonus. Harsh malus. Ascendant could do it better.

Base Cipher [MC UP] Half spells is bad. Top tiers are sometimes ok, but otherwise horrible as topers. haunting Chains disappointing. MC cipher generates focus faster, and so uses powers more.

Soul blade (Cipher) Instead SoulAnihilation just cast Desintegration. Overall not gain much from this subclass. Base cipher with less focus.

Shifter (Druid)[MC UP] Loose your gear, loose legendary weapon, and casting abillity, and now even wildstrike got nerfed.

 

WHY? TIERS

All others spec wizard Too few spells. No dmg spells benefit less from PL. Subclass bonus are very bad.

Corpse eater (Barbarian) Just drink potion. Get rage from corpse, so you can pay overpriced powers. Not enought benefits from eating or malus too harsh.

Mage slayer (Barbarian) You dont really need it for killing mages. But malus is annoying. Could be hard to stay alive.

Edited by evilcat
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TOP TIERS

Berserker (Barbarian)

Troubadour (Chanter)

Bleak walker (Paladin)

Goldpact knights (Paladin)

Kind wayfarers (Paladin)

HIGH TIERS

Base Wizard

Wizard (Evoker)

Assassin (Rogue)

Street fighter (Rogue)

Nalpazca (Monk)

Helwalker (Monk)

Shieldbearer of St Elcga (Paladin)

MID HI TIERS

Skald (Chanter) [MC UP]

Base Chanter

Shattered pillar (Monk) [MC UP]

Base Monk

Darcozzi Paladini (Paladin)

Base Rogue

Lifegiver (Druid)

Fury (Druid)

Base Druid

MID LOW TIERS

Ascendant (Cipher) [MC UP]

Sharpshooter (Ranger)

Ghost Heart (Ranger)

Base Ranger

Base Barbarian

LOW TIERS (MC UP TIER)

Devoted (Fighter) [MC UP]

Unbroken (Fighter) [MC UP]

Base Fighter [MC UP]

All priest [MC UP]

Trickster (Rogue) [MC UP]

Stalker (Ranger) [MC UP]

Beguiler (Cipher) [MC UP]

Base Cipher [MC UP]

Shifter (Druid)[MC UP]

Black jacket (Fighter) [MC UP]

WHY? TIERS

All others spec wizard

Corpse eater (Barbarian)

Mage slayer (Barbarian)

Soul blade (Cipher)

Beckoner (Chanter)

No idea how you can put devoted so low with the changes to armor etc they're pretty strong still. Fighter is still a good Subclass it's just not bonkers broken cleaving stance giving you faster action speed and a full attack is still pretty powerful it's just not hilariously broke. Currently running a brute and it's pretty insane with my chosen weapons being swords with the modal and with zerker and devoted that gives me access to 6 arpen not including penetrating strikes. The only thing imo is meta knowledge possibly.

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Personnally, I think on kill, barbarian is still better for speed.

And if you talk about multiclass. Paladin is a better brother. Damage + Speed.

 

Penetration is enough in the most of case. Critical give you more penetration.

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Hum, in fact there is few cool stuff with priest.

 

Supress affliction (Against afflictions)

Barring death door. (Immortal)

Triumph of the crusader (Strong +200 heal)

Shining beacon (Debuff + Overtime damage)

Devotion for the faithful (even if... now it is... just OK frankly for 4.5s of casting time...)

Dire blessing (Perception inspiration)

 

BUT...

 

3 of theses spells are on the same line. The rest... is OK but not particularly crazy.

 

A +5 with inspiration is not bad... but... I don't know, you can take a another melee, perhaps would be better...

+A lot of inspiration are already here :

 

You have 2 berserkers ? Crusader is useless for 2/5 members of crew.

You have 2 fighters ? Dire blessing is useless for 2/5 members of crew.

 

ETC ETC.

 

So, yes Priest is not totally bad, but he his not good. Low tiers is perfect for him.

 

I dont know all the spell names by hearth but the lvl 1 and 3 ones that boost perception (an hit chance) are almost mandatory for early game, especially on POTD. I've also found that the heals from the druid companion alone are not enough. The one at 0.5 cast time is needed just as much as the +hit buff. I wouldnt make a PC priest (i find them boring) but if you dont, you really need Xoti in your party (or an hired generic priest). I would rate priest higher than they are on the current list.

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....

MID  HI TIERS

Skald (Chanter) [MC UP]

Base Chanter

Shattered pillar (Monk) [MC UP]

Base Monk

Darcozzi Paladini (Paladin)

Base Rogue

Lifegiver (Druid)

Fury (Druid)

Base Druid

 

...

 

Fury druid get their auto scaling finally? If not why did you place it so high?

Edited by QuiteGoneJin

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Hum, in fact there is few cool stuff with priest.

 

Supress affliction (Against afflictions)

Barring death door. (Immortal)

Triumph of the crusader (Strong +200 heal)

Shining beacon (Debuff + Overtime damage)

Devotion for the faithful (even if... now it is... just OK frankly for 4.5s of casting time...)

Dire blessing (Perception inspiration)

 

BUT...

 

3 of theses spells are on the same line. The rest... is OK but not particularly crazy.

 

A +5 with inspiration is not bad... but... I don't know, you can take a another melee, perhaps would be better...

+A lot of inspiration are already here :

 

You have 2 berserkers ? Crusader is useless for 2/5 members of crew.

You have 2 fighters ? Dire blessing is useless for 2/5 members of crew.

 

ETC ETC.

 

So, yes Priest is not totally bad, but he his not good. Low tiers is perfect for him.

 

I dont know all the spell names by hearth but the lvl 1 and 3 ones that boost perception (an hit chance) are almost mandatory for early game, especially on POTD. I've also found that the heals from the druid companion alone are not enough. The one at 0.5 cast time is needed just as much as the +hit buff. I wouldnt make a PC priest (i find them boring) but if you dont, you really need Xoti in your party (or an hired generic priest). I would rate priest higher than they are on the current list.

 

I do think that the nerfs to Athletics and Druid healing were done largely to puff up Priests by comparison. 

 

It's... not a great way to make a class more attractive, though.  Players are rarely happy about lugging a partymember around primarily for heals.

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Fury druid get their auto scaling finally? If not why did you place it so high?

 

If i focus on elemental spells,  and ignore healing, and stick fury shape to low levels only it is still free penetration on elemental spells.

What could be said:

If you need more healing in party, Fury is bad.

Wizards are overall better, since better variety of spells.

Lifegiver is best, since we really dont care about summons, and heavy healing has value.

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Fury form is still bad because if u wanna boost your spells, wear gears that +PL is better than turn into some form and lose all bonus from gears.

 

The only sweet thing now is its speciality can be empowered. I tried a Fury/helwalker and did 200 damage 25+ sec stun with the empowered lightning speciality.

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I take issue with Devoted and Unbroken being on the same tier with vanilla fighters. 

The advantages to these archetypes  in their designated roles is undeniable, even if the class itself is not what it was. 

Obviously, this is about the expanded tiers list. None of the fighters belong on a higher tier than mid.

Edited by Parasol_Syndicate

Magran's fire casts light in Dark Places...

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Fury form is still bad because if u wanna boost your spells, wear gears that +PL is better than turn into some form and lose all bonus from gears.

 

The only sweet thing now is its speciality can be empowered. I tried a Fury/helwalker and did 200 damage 25+ sec stun with the empowered lightning speciality.

 

For what it's worth, I haven't found a class combo yet that deals more damage upon the completion of tutorial Island than the Tempest - Fury/Zerker.  XD XD

Edited by SamOftheUels

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I do not understand why ppl rank classes the way they do. It would actually be constructive if you also posted the reasoning behind your rankings so we could discuss it. For example I see ranger low on basically every list but when TCS gets here I'll do it on Ghostheart/Assassin. Ghostheart summons his pet for only 1 bond and it has no recovery, the pet can take a few hits and once he gets an engagement slot he also locks down whatever u send him on. Rangers driving flight is awesome with the knockback blunderbuss. Ranger also have a great mobility skill wich costs one bond and gives u a speed buff.

Assassin let's me burst hard from stealth with grenades or a powerful scroll basically ending the encounter before it even starts, if it fails simply invis and try again.

 

Atm I'm playing a solo Crusader (Devoted/Bleakwalker) with a bunch of healing mods, constant recovery alone makes me really sturdy with those heal mods. Lay on hands when hard hitters arrive. The defensive capability of these classes are enormous and even if I'd go all turtle mode on him I could still dish out good dmg by investing in Arcana or Explosives.

 

Ascendant is super powerful, burst to max focus then charm everything on map except one or two enemies. If solo multi with a Ghostheart for the instacast pet. I've tried this on current upscaled POTD and it works like a "charm" ;)

Downside is that they are super boring to play.

 

Beckoned locks down mobs just like boerer pointed out. Nuff said.

 

Engagement is good in this game, multi an unbroken with a rogue and use the engagement stance for several free distractions. Not a bad class if you want a tank who locks down mobs.

 

Druid-never played.

 

Priest-played around with wael+monk for a ranged lash dps when the summoned rod had 50% lash and monk lashes were unnerfed, every shot was a nuke eventually. After patch 1.1 I wouldn't do this so can't comment now.

 

Wizard I agree, I haven't played wizard just about anything yet but looking thru their spells and subclasses I wouldn't go anything but evoker.

 

Skald+berserker is good stuff because berserker generates a lot if crits so that Skald can shine.

 

Monk has very high and consistent dmg output and they are also imo the best class to make sure enemy caster never get a spell off. Nalpasca being a personal favourite because they will reliably generate wounds and drugs are very strong.

 

That covers just about everything I've tried so far and none of em has been bad.

Just because a few classes had super broken abilities pre patch and nerf was very noticeable on em doesn't make em bad now.

 

I do believe some stuff need some tuning still ofc. Like cipher for example, there's no point in playing one for anything other then charming enemies. Charms need a slight duration nerf and many shred spells need a boost.

 

Also I see many ppl complaining about rogues withering strike. Have u tried it with the Corrode DoT upgrade? It is very potent and weakened is a killer VS enemies who heal themselves. It's worth the 3 points in many cases.

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Admittedly, only on my first playthrough, and only for a week and a half. But - without reading in advance to spoil the experience - I started a Cipher Beguiler, and have been very happy with both the power and the versatility. I think people are selling short the impact of Whispers of Treason in the early game - turning a 5 v. 5 battle into 6 v. 4 is huge. And Ringleader pretty much wins battles when you're swarmed by numerous enemies (such as some ship battles). 

 

While an accuracy boost (as suggested) certainly would be nice for Beguiler (MOAR CRITS!), the extra range (20%) makes them able to open encounters from distance, and the focus regen when they hit something vulnerable to sneak attack (many conditions), gives them a ton of focus in most battles. 

 

... and then when you get to disintegrate - wham. I'm using Frostseeker, which seems to replenish my focus quickly when I'm low. My only quibble has been lack of survivability, but that's on me, since I went 3 CON, 3 RES. In hindsight, I'd have balanced those more evenly with INT, since the AOE's don't have much radius anyway (yet - at level 13), so adding % to AOE radius doesn't help as much as with wiz/druid powers.

 

I do think Ciphers suffer from a lack of quality level 2 and level 3 (and level 7) powers. Level 1 has several good ones, and Pain Block is amazing for a support power at L4. Ring Leader @L5, And Disintegrate @L6 are boss. And Time Parasite sounds nearly OP from the descriptions in this thread (*drools*).

 

Obviously, not relevant to much of anything, but starting with 2 points in Mechanics and Sleight of Hand makes for much easier early-game $$, too. Farm those traps!

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Level 2 has lots of good picks! I haven’t tried it, but with good dex and int, mental binding is probably really good. Phantom foes makes the whole field vulnerable to sneak attack and helps everyone in the party deal more damage with their weapons. Recall agony is one of the single strongest damage boosters in the game. Psychovampiric shield debuffs resolve heavily, which makes all your spells affect the target for longer, applies a heavy deflection debuff and an even heavier debuff to will.

 

Level 3 looks like it has a few more duds, but still gets secret horrors, for an aoe save or suck against enemy casters and ectopsychic echo for very solid aoe damage with good positioning. And there’s no need to mention puppet master.

 

Level 7 has one really weird spell I’m not sure anyone would ever pick (stasis shell), the game’s premier anti undead spell, which is pretty situational, and quite possibly the strongest single target buff in the game with ancestor’s memory.

 

Cipher still has some really weak spells that make you wonder what the designers were thinking (wild leech) but overall it has very strong picks at every level.

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v1.2 Ratings

 

1) Monk (single or multi titan) - I wish all classes were this effecient, deadly, and flexible

 

2) Chanter (single or multi deity) - Just when I think Chanters have been fully optimized, I discover some crazy new combo

 

3) Wizard (single or multi demigod) - Fun, flexible, and nasty DPS if you build for it - dear devs, use wiz as template to fix priest

3) Rogue (multi powerhouse) - Very efficient low level skills make it a great multi-class pick - could be the new monk (especially street fighter) if it had equal single class power

 

4) Cipher (ok multi, nasty single class) - charm/dominate is the ultimate status effect and no one brings more flavors than the cipher. The Cipher’s effectiveness in the outer levels, as a single class, distort its ranking. To be fair this class has lots of rough spots and needs to be more memorable than a CC/charm bot

 

5) Barbs (hero) - take your pick, any class from this melee trio (barb, pali, fighter) is effective. I can’t define a clear winner in 1.2 (yet) since each will deliver reliable levels of DPS and survivability

5) Paladins (hero) - if only sacred immolation was made more user friendly and it had less wasted skills that are lame - the good skills are at least still good for now

5) Fighters (hero) - great multi-class compliment, less attractive solo due to nothing special in the outer levels for me - fighters are presently a poor man’s monk

 

6) Druid (veteran) - single class is a lackluster experience and this class is enjoyable when paired with monk, barb, pali, and fighter. However, a Wiz or Chanter paired with any of those classes is far better

6) Ranger (veteran) - becoming a fair multi-class choice, but still less attractive than the melee triplets (see above)

 

7) Priest (novice) - where to begin... most Priest spells take way too long, are outshined by other classes, and offer nothing unique/critical to a party or solo. I dislike them solo or multi in their present form. Attention devs, look at what makes the wiz successful and do it for Priest heals, buffs, and debuffs... I am willing to yield DPS and CC if you could make the Priest shine at heals, buffs, and debuffs

Edited by heldred

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5) Fighters (hero) - great multi-class compliment, less attractive solo due to nothing special in the outer levels for me - fighters are presently a poor man’s monk

 

I haven’t played enough characters to weigh in on a tier list, particularly since I’ve spent far more time calculating, theory crafting and messing around in the console than I have actually playing the game. I’ll say that fighter, on paper, looks really boring. It’s tanky, but lots of class combos can match it and bring more interesting abilities to the table. It has quite mediocre damage boosts and the resource costs of some of its abilities are higher than they should be (into the fray, power strike, inspired discipline). But some of its powers are a lot better than they seem on paper. Clear out and its upgrades are really, really good. Not only do they spread on hit effects in an aoe, which becomes quite large when upgraded, they also interrupt, push and prone, and on top of all that, they hit the primary target twice. For 2 discipline. Clear out at power level 6 is on par with power level 8 abilities on other martial characters and it gets better when upgraded.

 

Still, I was considering psyblade vs transcendent yesterday for a soul blade, and monk just offers so much that I couldn’t find a reason to take fighter. In theory, fighter could be really fun, with lots of active things to do, like using tactical meld from cipher to get a huge engagement limit with mob stance to boost recovery, then suck enemies into your engagement with into the fray, drop cipher spells at high speed with your recovery boost, then blow everyone away and build up a bunch of focus with clear out. But at the end of the day, into the fray costs too much discipline to use frequently and doesn’t generate focus for some reason, and the fighter has no serious damage boosts on its own. So the huge damage and the boosts to intellect, might and dexterity from monk is just too good to pass up.

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Level 2 has lots of good picks! I haven’t tried it, but with good dex and int, mental binding is probably really good. Phantom foes makes the whole field vulnerable to sneak attack and helps everyone in the party deal more damage with their weapons. Recall agony is one of the single strongest damage boosters in the game. Psychovampiric shield debuffs resolve heavily, which makes all your spells affect the target for longer, applies a heavy deflection debuff and an even heavier debuff to will.

 

 

 

I hadn't appreciated the 0.5 cast time (and wide radius) on Phantom Foes enough. I've just always relied on Eyestrike for half the focus. But with tons of focus, the quick cast time is great, I agree. And oh yeah, I use Mental Binding enough that I shouldn't have panned level 2 spells. It is good. :->

 

It just sort of sank in that - contrary to many other RPGs - only Wizards have access to their entire spell canon in POE2 (with the abundance of grimoires), while all other classes have to pick spells when they level up (at the opportunity cost of not taking things like "Tough", or "Snake's Reflex", etc.) I'll probably have to respec to try some of these good cipher suggestions. And/or future playthroughs.

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I think Trickster now surpasses vanilla Rogue and Streetfighter and on par with Assassin. After extensive play I think these two are at minimum A tier (if S is the best). Rogues are simply unmatched in single target debuff and DPS and can grow into more versatile classes.

 

Only con is -10% Sneak Attack. That's it. For a Rogue/Illusionist that now gets a spell EVERY powerlevel and we are talking good spells here. It's certainly one of the most versatile subclasses. It allows the Rogue to be self sufficiant with (AoE) Sneak Attacks and makes a case for multi-ing other team members with Rogues.

Edited by Verde

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Trickster is good, Assassin so-so (slightly better then vanilla), but suggesting that there is a better rogue subclass then Streetfighter is just crazy!

Early on, Streetfighter easily does double damage of regular rogues if you can trigger the conditions. Which isn't that difficult. Plus has very rapid recovery, which helps with other things as well

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Trickster is good, Assassin so-so (slightly better then vanilla), but suggesting that there is a better rogue subclass then Streetfighter is just crazy!

Early on, Streetfighter easily does double damage of regular rogues if you can trigger the conditions. Which isn't that difficult. Plus has very rapid recovery, which helps with other things as well

Well I'm certainly up for your take on the Streetfighter. It was very powerful on my Swashbuckler (Blackjacket/SF) once he got Persistent Distraction. Ran high Resolve and Riposte. But he required more specific conditions than I was willing to micro every fight. Trickster is actually the best class for Riposte.

 

Also, Assassin/Soulblade = highest single target DPS :D 

Edited by Verde

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