Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

[MECHANICS] Attack Speed, Recovery Time, Reload Time

mechanics attack speed attack time recovery duration recovery time reload time

  • Please log in to reply
110 replies to this topic

#81
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2347 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Personally I'm not wild about caps; I don't even like the fact that stats are capped at 35 because it seems like a design flaw in the Deadfire version of resolve that it needs a cap to be functional.

Feeling the same. If there is an upper cap, it's like something is spiraling out of control and game mechanics can't handle it, which denotes a poor system.
Although am ok with bottom caps. Like: at least 20% of damage always go through. An experienced player will find a way to deal more than threshold; but it might help someone less experienced against blocking in combat when they just can't deal damage and being forced to reload the save.
 

It seems like in addition to avoiding 0/negative damage, this is also a way for Obsidian to make underpenetration and grazes much more meaningful than in PoE1 (ok, there was no underpenetration, but grazes can become trivialized).

Exactly this)
-0.5 from additive graze is less stingy, when you have high MIG, can backstab or deathblow)
 

Though IMO it would've been a lot easier if Obsidian had just said "screw consistency, we'll make weapon modal penalties/graze/underpenetration multiplicative modifiers"

Yup. Been suggested: v4 and v5 from here.
Although if graze is to be multiplicative, imo crit should be too. If under-penetration is multiplicative, over-penetration should be too.

Edited by MaxQuest, 01 July 2018 - 10:16 AM.


#82
thelee

thelee

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1570 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
Although if graze is to be multiplicative, imo crit should be too. If under-penetration is multiplicative, over-penetration should be too.

 

in my experience over-penetration is so hard to achieve mid-to-late game against reasonable enemies in 1.1 potd that you should be rewarded with a +30% multiplicative damage bonus. in certain situations it would make weapon modals useful to try to get to overpenetration, whereas right now the likely hit to your recovery is going to far outweigh the small relative increase in damage from overpenetration.


Edited by thelee, 01 July 2018 - 10:46 AM.


#83
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 14850 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
That would make PEN even more impactful. It already is on PotD.

Multiplicative graze/crit: no problem for me. If it becomes too severe you can always tweak the numbers a bit.

Edited by Boeroer, 01 July 2018 - 10:36 AM.


#84
Sotnik

Sotnik

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 137 posts
  • Steam:76561198056541314

Thank you all for the comments on PEN. The current system turns out to be not so bad (could be worse :) ), although the game lacks internal information on mechanics again.

 

This might be relevant to PEN as well, but in my opinion Graze and Crit should have been multiplicative multipliers. Probably I am influenced by the traditions of rpgs where crits are almost always multiplicative.


Edited by Sotnik, 02 July 2018 - 04:08 AM.


#85
kilay

kilay

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 524 posts

How does the math behind Armored Grace work? I don't get how the -25% armor recovery penalty from the tooltip factors in.
A: It is a bit convoluted but works in the following way:
- the game doesn't operate that much with [recovery_time] penalties for armors; Instead it stores and uses their speed coefficients.
- for heavy armors it is: 0.645 (= 1/1.55)
- for medium armors it is: 0.741 (= 1/1.35)
- for light armors it is: 0.833 (= 1/1.20)

Now, Armored Grace increases the armor speed coefficient by +0.1, which becomes:
- for heavy armors: 0.745 coef => (1/0.745 = 1.342) => +34% displayed recovery time penalty
- for medium armors: 0.841 => (1/0.841 = 1.189) => +19% displayed recovery time penalty
- for light armors: 0.933 => (1/0.933 = 1.071) => +7% displayed recovery time penalty
P.S. Yeap, tooltip lies. The actual value is 0.1, not 0.25. And it reduces recovery speed penalty, not recovery time penalty.

 

Many thnks for explanation , just a question. What do the

"ExtraValue": -0.25

 

in the status effect of armored grace (gamedatabundle) ?
is it just the wrong value reported in the gui? And is it not required for any other maths process?

In this case can i change it to -0.1  to fix the wrong displayed value in game ?

 

Thnks in advance


Edited by kilay, 16 July 2018 - 03:23 AM.


#86
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2347 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

What do the "ExtraValue": -0.25
 
in the status effect of armored grace (gamedatabundle) ?
is it just the wrong value reported in the gui? And is it not required for any other maths process?
In this case can i change it to -0.1  to fix the wrong displayed value in game ?
 
Thnks in advance

Tbh will have to test it myself in order to answer this)
And most likely will have time only on weekend.
  • kilay likes this

#87
kilay

kilay

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 524 posts

 

What do the "ExtraValue": -0.25
 
in the status effect of armored grace (gamedatabundle) ?
is it just the wrong value reported in the gui? And is it not required for any other maths process?
In this case can i change it to -0.1  to fix the wrong displayed value in game ?
 
Thnks in advance

Tbh will have to test it myself in order to answer this)
And most likely will have time only on weekend.

 

 

Thnks for reply :)

 

I already did that and seems works as intended, hopefully it doesn't touch other mechanics and t'is just a gui.stringtable reference


Edited by kilay, 17 July 2018 - 04:20 AM.

  • MaxQuest likes this

#88
hansvedic

hansvedic

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 189 posts

I noticed a couple things as I was playing with the speed calculator:

  1. Picking the Articulated bonus (Devil of Caroc breastplate), a breastplate as the gear, and the Armored Grace & Cutthroat Cosmo options results in a lower recovery time than the base. Is this correct? I was under the impression that Articulated, Armored Grace, and Cutthroat Cosmo all affected the effect armor has on recovery, and thus couldn't go lower than the base.
  2. It seems like a Marauder activating Frenzy and with the Streetfighter bonus can still swing battle axes rather quickly, even with the bleed modal on. Has anyone tried this in a playthrough?

Any thoughts on those items?



#89
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 14850 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
1. No. Articulated gives you an actual speed bonus like Frenzy etc. does. So if you can reduce the recovery malus of the Breastplate enough you will be faster than without armor because the speed bonus is higher than the recovery malus.

2. Yes. Both stack. Frenzy gives you an attack speed bonus that reduces animation time and recovery while Heating Up cuts the recovery in half. Heating Up doesn't negate Bleeding Cuts because of double inversion (the way maluses are calculated under the hood). But it helps a lot.
  • hansvedic likes this

#90
hansvedic

hansvedic

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 189 posts

1. No. Articulated gives you an actual speed bonus like Frenzy etc. does. So if you can reduce the recovery malus of the Breastplate enough you will be faster than without armor because the speed bonus is higher than the recovery malus.

2. Yes. Both stack. Frenzy gives you an attack speed bonus that reduces animation time and recovery while Heating Up cuts the recovery in half. Heating Up doesn't negate Bleeding Cuts because of double inversion (the way maluses are calculated under the hood). But it helps a lot.

 

Thanks, Boeroer.

 

As for the battle axes, the calculator seems to suggest that, with Frenzy, Bloodlust, Two-Weapon Style, and the Streetfighter bonus that one can get the total attack time down to 2.1 seconds (0.5 attack time, 1.6 recovery time) per attack with 10 dexterity even with the Battle Axe modal on. That seems pretty darn fast. I may have to try a dual battle-axe build one of these days on a Streetfighter, especially a Maurader, given this.



#91
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 14850 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Yes, it is fast. But it's also a ton of attack speed/recovery bonuses. :)

#92
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2347 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I noticed a couple things as I was playing with the speed calculator [...]

Confirming that Boeroer has correctly answered your questions :)
 
 

As for the battle axes, the calculator seems to suggest that, with Frenzy, Bloodlust, Two-Weapon Style, and the Streetfighter bonus that one can get the total attack time down to 2.1 seconds (0.5 attack time, 1.6 recovery time) per attack with 10 dexterity even with the Battle Axe modal on. That seems pretty darn fast.

It's indeed so)
Btw, given the amount of full-attacks a Marauder can use, you can improve the attack rate even further, by taking a fast weapon in your offhand, because mainhand recovery is waved during FA. E.g:
- normal attack (with mainhand battle axe and offhand battle axe): 4.2s (2.1s + 2.1s)
- normal attack (with mainhand battle axe and offhand dagger): 3.4s (2.1s + 1.3s)

- full attack (with mainhand battle axe and offhand battle axe): 2.6s (0.5s + 2.1s)
- full attack (with mainhand battle axe and offhand dagger): 1.8s (0.5 + 1.3s)

Moreover there are some fast weapons with extra speed enchantments, like: Rännig's Wrath (Flurry: +10% action speed), Squid's Grasp (Attempted Parley: +30% Action Speed when threatened by 3 or more enemies), and so on.
  • drithius likes this

#93
pmchem

pmchem

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 50 posts

Is the original post still fully correct and complete as of patch 4.1?  Great resource for new/returning players.

 

Thank you to people who worked on all this!


Edited by pmchem, 26 January 2019 - 07:49 AM.


#94
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 14850 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Afaik nothing about those mechanics changed.



#95
falchen

falchen

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 260 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

#96
thelee

thelee

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1570 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

 

depends on if the guns have any special passive bonuses that you can combine, but yes, in general you are correct. in fact, if you have a particular gun or one-handed ranged-weapon that you like to use a lot, it is optimal to wield it with a one-handed melee weapon instead of a lesser second gun, if no full attacks are in play.


Edited by thelee, 30 January 2019 - 08:26 AM.

  • Dr. Hieronymous Alloy likes this

#97
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1473 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer


 



Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

 

depends on if the guns have any special passive bonuses that you can combine, but yes, in general you are correct. in fact, if you have a particular gun or one-handed ranged-weapon that you like to use a lot, it is optimal to wield it with a one-handed melee weapon instead of a lesser second gun, if no full attacks are in play.

 

 

 

Yup. Theoretically no difference, but in practice almost always a huge difference, if only because it's a lot easier to enchant one blunderbuss up to "Legendary" (or even "Mythical") and then hold a stat stick like Griffin's Blade in the offhand than it is to enchant two different blunderbussi up to similar levels. 


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 30 January 2019 - 08:51 AM.

  • thelee likes this

#98
Elric Galad

Elric Galad

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1568 posts
  • Location:Paris

 

Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

 

depends on if the guns have any special passive bonuses that you can combine, but yes, in general you are correct. in fact, if you have a particular gun or one-handed ranged-weapon that you like to use a lot, it is optimal to wield it with a one-handed melee weapon instead of a lesser second gun, if no full attacks are in play.

 

 

Agreed. Also your character will automatically switch between melee and ranged weapon provided you are in the right range.

So it enables switching melee vs range without delay. It doesn't add power, but it adds versatility.



#99
giftmefood

giftmefood

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 233 posts

 

Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

 

depends on if the guns have any special passive bonuses that you can combine, but yes, in general you are correct. in fact, if you have a particular gun or one-handed ranged-weapon that you like to use a lot, it is optimal to wield it with a one-handed melee weapon instead of a lesser second gun, if no full attacks are in play.

 

Unrelated question but I just want to get the bottom of this. Is stacking -% recovery time items and skills a good idea or does it have diminishing returns? Because based on what I read, you and MaxQuest haven't agreed on whether it has diminishing or linear returns. 



#100
thelee

thelee

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1570 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

 
depends on if the guns have any special passive bonuses that you can combine, but yes, in general you are correct. in fact, if you have a particular gun or one-handed ranged-weapon that you like to use a lot, it is optimal to wield it with a one-handed melee weapon instead of a lesser second gun, if no full attacks are in play.
 
Unrelated question but I just want to get the bottom of this. Is stacking -% recovery time items and skills a good idea or does it have diminishing returns? Because based on what I read, you and MaxQuest haven't agreed on whether it has diminishing or linear returns.

IIRC we actually do agree, MaxQuest has a specific definition for "intrinsic diminishing returns." This is the idea that mathematically, with linear returns you still get less relative benefit from something the more you have of it. I agree with the math, I just more disagree with the naming.

Basically under a scenario with linear returns (or intrinsinc diminishing returns) you should be concerned with tradeoffs; it essentially means that if you're trading off between two sources of damage boost (e.g. might or dexterity) you should balance them out (as I've mentioned elsewhere it's for the same reason why maximizing the area of something with a fixed perimeter means creating a square instead of a rectangle). "True" diminishing returns means eventually it's just not worth investing in on its own, regardless of merit, which is not the case for something like recovery time.
  • MaxQuest likes this





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: mechanics, attack speed, attack time, recovery duration, recovery time, reload time

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users