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Aramintai

[ENDING SPOILERS] The ending of Deadfire and what it means for The Lore

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To me, Od Nua just wanted Maros to not be less than he was, as in intact with all his memories up to that point I suppose.

 

Just like that Animancer hanging from the Gilded Vale tree said, sometimes souls come back strong / undiminished, but that's rare and what usually happens is they come back less. Or something like that, it's been a while. 

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I believe the Engwithans created not only the Wheel but the entire concept of Soul, a technique used to give a will and energy to golems. Thaos credited the creation of the gods to the lack of hope of "creatures" and desire for something superior that gave sense and control to their lives. 

Barath was the leader of the project and creator of the idea. All kith, including the Amanua, where created to fuel the energy needed to create gods by the collection of memories and consciences. The lore calls it "Essence". In the ruin of Poko Kahora you can see murals of the Huana being sacrificed  to the Engwithans.
To absorb such energy, they found/created a mineral named Adra and used them to house the energy and probably all information contained in the "soul". 
After that, they created the Wheel, which is also based on the concept of Samsara/Oruborus/Wheel of fortune tarot card, to keep the energy flowing like a mill. 

With the energy, the scientists elevated themselves to Godhood and also served to maintain their existences and powers. But it also meant the destruction of the Engwithan society, the experiment was a success, but created a storm, much like a biblical event, that destroyed everything. The survivors created the previous Neketaka, but it was also destroyed by Ondra to keep their secret. 

 

Aons later, Eothas desired to put an end to the Gods machinations and tell all humans the true nature of their lives. Magran gave the god bomba and Eothas was killed in the war. At the second coming of Eothas, instead of leading the people to the truth, he decided to destroy the Wheel and stop with the cycle and reveal everything by force.

By destroying the Wheel the consciences will stay in the world and the artificial system of cyclic life will end, the gods will lose the energy that powered them and their godhood. 

However, the animancy is the science used by the Engwithans to create the souls, the Wheel, the in-between and addra pillars. In drywood the experiments with the hollowborn crises fueled the research on the proprieties of the soul and how to insert them into Vessels (with is like the burnt bodies are called along with zombie flesh) including how to insert animal souls into kirth bodies. That's why Thaos desired to destroy Animancy and stop with the research. 
On Neketaka, animancers are discovering how to enter the in-between, a dimension of pure consciousness, and how to use the addra to house souls and even how to manufacture the pillars. 
That means the that current developments suggest the possibility of the Kirth controlling the cycle without a Wheel, the creation of another one, along with new gods, or even the use of Kirth souls to power a civilization. 

 

Berath - Project Leader

Woedica - Project Manager
Margan - Chief of Security
Ondra - Sea-biologist
Galawain - Zoology and evolutionist expert. 
Hylia - Reproduction expert. 
Abyddon - Chief Engineer
Wael - Researcher -Psychology 
Eothas- Genetics and creator of Kith.
Rymwhatever - Was a scientist responsible for creating the souls that resented their creation and wishes to put an end.



 

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As I see it, entropy is probably the answer. The Engwithans saw that the natural reincarnation process would degenerate souls, and the entire reincarnation cycle, into collapse. The Wheel was created to regulate the process and thereby increase the sustainability of the cycle; to slow down entropy. As others have speculated here, creating the Wheel severed the natural process that took souls from the In-Between to the Beyond. Perhaps the natural process can be restored, but it's not going to return on its own even with the Wheel's absence. And with no process, natural or artificial, to facilitate the transfer of souls then, as the gods said, Eora would become devoid of life as the Beyond empties.

Edited by Icesong
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As I see it, entropy is probably the answer. The Engwithans saw that the natural reincarnation process would degenerate souls, and the entire reincarnation cycle, into collapse. The Wheel was created to regulate the process and thereby increase the sustainability of the cycle; to slow down entropy. As others have speculated here, creating the Wheel severed the natural process that took souls from the In-Between to the Beyond. Perhaps the natural process can be restored, but it's not going to return on its own even with the Wheel's absence. And with no process, natural or artificial, to facilitate the transfer of souls then, as the gods said, Eora would become devoid of life as the Beyond empties.

Well, according to the game the In-Between is also part of the Wheel system - a soul sieve through which the gods take their share to sustain themselves. Some people here even speculate it's the gods fault that souls degenerate as they "nibble on souls". So with the Wheel broken the In-Between is broken too - gods will weaken unless this whole thing is fixed. Also, the lore about the In-Between says that it's a place into which the Watchers peer to speak with lost souls and that the gods cannot reach it. So I wonder, with it broken, can Watchers even still retain their abilities? Or is this another in-game lie? :rolleyes:  Because lore says gods can't reach it but here we had Berath right at the beginning of the game sitting in the In-Between (what for is the stupid lore cyclopedia if you can't even trust it...).

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As I see it, entropy is probably the answer. The Engwithans saw that the natural reincarnation process would degenerate souls, and the entire reincarnation cycle, into collapse. The Wheel was created to regulate the process and thereby increase the sustainability of the cycle; to slow down entropy. As others have speculated here, creating the Wheel severed the natural process that took souls from the In-Between to the Beyond. Perhaps the natural process can be restored, but it's not going to return on its own even with the Wheel's absence. And with no process, natural or artificial, to facilitate the transfer of souls then, as the gods said, Eora would become devoid of life as the Beyond empties.

Well, according to the game the In-Between is also part of the Wheel system - a soul sieve through which the gods take their share to sustain themselves. Some people here even speculate it's the gods fault that souls degenerate as they "nibble on souls". So with the Wheel broken the In-Between is broken too - gods will weaken unless this whole thing is fixed. Also, the lore about the In-Between says that it's a place into which the Watchers peer to speak with lost souls and that the gods cannot reach it. So I wonder, with it broken, can Watchers even still retain their abilities? Or is this another in-game lie? :rolleyes:  Because lore says gods can't reach it but here we had Berath right at the beginning of the game sitting in the In-Between (what for is the stupid lore cyclopedia if you can't even trust it...).

 

 

My understanding of Berath's explanation was that the In-Between always existed, the Beyond always existed, but not the Wheel. And the In-Between still exists.

 

Without the wheel to mediate the transfer and redistrubtion of souls, the souls of all who die remain in the In-Between. And without souls to fill it, the Beyond gradually empties, trapping all the remaining souls in existence in the In-Between.

 

Also, you started out in the In-Between and heard Berath speaking to you, but when you actually meet Berath you were in the Beyond. The Wheel turns again.

Edited by Icesong

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Also, you started out in the In-Between and heard Berath speaking to you, but when you actually meet Berath you were in the Beyond. The Wheel turns again.

Ah, yes, you're right. I replayed the beginning again - you start in the In-Between but then get sucked through adra into the Beyond, Berath welcomes you to it. Btw, gods live there apparently.

Edited by Aramintai

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Btw, here is the video of the exact things the gods were saying about the Wheel and stuff:

https://youtu.be/o97L5vX6Xzo?list=PLN39y5i_H0FkkkRl2hhJ4-doVQ1QS-KW3&t=1385

Souls will be stuck in the In-Between, the Beyond will gradually empty and nothing will come out if to reincarnate. Everyone's ****ed. But at least Rymrgand will be happy  :rolleyes:

And gods do nibble at souls fragments, so it may as well be them that degenerate souls not something else.

 

Also, Cohh provided a good theory in that video - what if Engwithans originally created the Wheel to transfer collected knowledge through reincarnation? That would make them sort of immortal like Thaos - being reborn will all memories intact. Clearly it doesn't work like that now, but people still do Awaken from time to time. Maybe, once created, the gods meddled with how it worked earlier, Ondra and Woedica sure would love for kith to forget all about Engwithans and their secrets.

Edited by Aramintai

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from what i gather... souls were being created or born before the gods were created, and a few are still created naturally now, though because souls are being reintroduced by the wheel the need for fresh souls is lessened, and nature adapted by reducing the creation of new souls to avoid over-saturation. so instead of new souls being constantly created, living, dying, and then moving on to wherever, you have the souls of the dead being stripped bare, likely the extra bits are what is consumed by these gods, then the cleaned souls are redirected into their new bodies. i just wonder what happened to all that leftover soul energy as it's not being used for soul creation?

 

---edit

as for why bother destroying and remaking the wheel? well, as it's been stated, the gods are munching on small bits of soul energy as these souls turn... slowly souls will deteriorate and to top it off... the gods are still getting their supper. i say it's about time we sent them to their rooms without dinner, as i think they've been misbehaving the last few thousand years.

Edited by Casper

Yesterday, upon the stair, I met a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today, I wish, I wish he'd go away... -Hughes Mearns

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Also, Cohh provided a good theory in that video - what if Engwithans originally created the Wheel to transfer collected knowledge through reincarnation? That would make them sort of immortal like Thaos - being reborn will all memories intact.

 

Why would they go to such lengths to ensure that nobody knows the truth (referring to the Leaden Key activities here) if they wanted people to remember though?

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Also, Cohh provided a good theory in that video - what if Engwithans originally created the Wheel to transfer collected knowledge through reincarnation? That would make them sort of immortal like Thaos - being reborn will all memories intact.

 

Why would they go to such lengths to ensure that nobody knows the truth (referring to the Leaden Key activities here) if they wanted people to remember though?

 

Perhaps because the Wheel system was created before the gods project. And after the gods were made they got their portfolios and identities, some of them decided to hide everything related to their creation. That included the remainder of Engwithans themselves, who were later destroyed by Ondra bringing down a moon on them. It is entirely possible they messed with the Wheel too so that reincarnated Engwithans would not remember anything of their past knowledge. Seems logical to me.

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So if I understand correctly, the primary assumption you have to make to avoid a retcon is that the gods are lying to you (either knowingly or because they don't know the actual truth) about what existed before the Wheel and what will happen once the Wheel is destroyed, and you have to assume this without any sort of evidence otherwise in either game save for a subtle implication in a two sentence description of a several-thousand-year-old historical figure?

 

That just sounds like sloppy writing to me tbh.

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I believe the Engwithans created not only the Wheel but the entire concept of Soul, a technique used to give a will and energy to golems. 

 

Except we know that can't be true because of the hollowborn. We saw what happened to children born without souls. If souls didn't exist in this world since the beginning literally kith couldn't have survived like the hollowborn are unable to even feed themselves. Engwithians were kith we know that from lore too. They were a collection of all the races.

 

The writer who created the world and the subsequent writers seemed to not have an understanding of the implications of certain world facts. For example the concept of reincarnation, souls being cyclical and combining that with soul energy being a natural part of the world. The only way that could work is if there is no entropy in the world. I.E. energy or matter can't be lost or destroyed merely transformed otherwise population growth would be impossible for animals and kith. Furthermore its stated that the gods don't create new souls. So either new souls can be created though a natural process something Berath would be aware of because she is responsible for shepherding souls into their new life and would notice new souls being recycled. Which raises an interesting point that people's souls could not have diminished before the founding of the gods. Furthermore we know experience can strengthen a soul so soul energy can be created a stronger soul means more soul energy. 

 

Another important implication the writers probably didn't think through is that they implied that energy created from beliefs are different than the energy created by souls. Otherwise priests would diminish their souls every time they used their powers. And the power can't be directly given from the gods otherwise Paladins would always have to be religious but we know their power can be inspired by causes and they use powers similar to priests. Which means that a priests power comes from their belief not their god. When you put this all together it would imply based on the rules of this world, that power can be created through belief. So if their were gods and they were empowered or made, by belief the Engwithians wouldn't have been able to find them though animancy.

 

I think there are only one of two ways this world can make sense is if 1. There were real gods at one point. These gods only exist so long as their is a need for them or belief in them. Once the Engwithians created gods there was no need or belief in the old ones and they stopped existing, where greatly diminished, or were merged with the Engwithian gods by their believers.  2. Go full on Pantheism all souls are essentially one and connected (which would explain how ciphers can read minds without being watchers) and the god who created them is made up of all our souls which is why no one could find them because they no longer exist in a form we could recognize.   

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What was considered a "proper reincarnation"? Not being reincarnated into an animal or splintered? Maybe being reincarnated at all? Why were the gods needed for this? To pray for better outcome?

 

My impression of the Od Nua story is that he wanted his son to always be a "prince".

 
 

There is some overhead dialogues in Deadfire that mention that Roparu are reincarnated into higher cast in their next life and Berath reincarnate you into a little furry creature at the start of the game if you pick the Wheel instead of playing the game (which is nasty and funny at the same time). And there is Thaos, we are told in POE1 that Woedica makes sure he is the same in all reincarnation. There is also the godlikes, who's soul is linked to specific gods via a chimes (similar to what Berath does at the start of the game). So, the gods have some controls, what they do with it probably depends on their whims and goals.

 

It also raise a very good question about Watchers. Are they created by the gods or bugs in the system?


Azarhal, Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order of Eternity.


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The gods mention specifically that they discarded their bodies. So giant skeletons may be theirs.

 

Magran, at least, considers giants to be something she can create for a job and destroy later with no qualms whatsoever. So they could be proto-guardians that were simply tossed out when it was convenient.

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As I see it, entropy is probably the answer. The Engwithans saw that the natural reincarnation process would degenerate souls, and the entire reincarnation cycle, into collapse. The Wheel was created to regulate the process and thereby increase the sustainability of the cycle; to slow down entropy. As others have speculated here, creating the Wheel severed the natural process that took souls from the In-Between to the Beyond. Perhaps the natural process can be restored, but it's not going to return on its own even with the Wheel's absence. And with no process, natural or artificial, to facilitate the transfer of souls then, as the gods said, Eora would become devoid of life as the Beyond empties.

Exactly this, I think. The gods mentioned that the entire thing they've been trying to do for thousands of years, why they were created even? was an attempt to keep kith souls strong. I think the Engwithans realized with their soul meddling that entropy was destroying mortal life on Eora and created a system (gods) to regulate the flow of souls to try to keep life going on. It worked, to a large degree, but it isn't infinitely sustainable and now Eothas wants the kith to figure out something better for themselves.

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They were created because thaos was an irrational f-wit, but somehow charismatic. Fearing a mechanical universe, he drove his people to suicide to make gods, and maintained the system with even more atrocities after that first one. All out of fear that godless people would commit atrocities. :/

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I finished this last night, and I just want to know what happened to the gods from the first game?  As messed up as they were they still had an overall feel to them, an overall presence.  Some of the verbal sparing with them in the first game were some of my favorite moments.  Now they seem like characters from a 70's cartoon or comic book. I mean they could of all rolled up in the Mystery Mobile during one of their little chat interludes and I wouldn't have been all that surprised.  And this whole reincarnation and the wheel?  Retcon?  I don't even know anymore. 

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As messed up as they were they still had an overall feel to them, an overall presence.  Some of the verbal sparing with them in the first game were some of my favorite moments.  Now they seem like characters from a 70's cartoon or comic book. 

 

Most of them also seem to have different voices now. I think only Ondra and maybe Hylea and Rymrgand are still the same? Or at least similar enough to their old versions. And the only new voice I like better than the old one is Wael. Abydon's old manner of talking used to have that rhytmic, almost mechanical pace to it that was very in character. Skaen's voice was really, really creepy. But now they all just sound generic, and that doesn't help the overall impression they leave. 

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As I see it, entropy is probably the answer. The Engwithans saw that the natural reincarnation process would degenerate souls, and the entire reincarnation cycle, into collapse. The Wheel was created to regulate the process and thereby increase the sustainability of the cycle; to slow down entropy. As others have speculated here, creating the Wheel severed the natural process that took souls from the In-Between to the Beyond. Perhaps the natural process can be restored, but it's not going to return on its own even with the Wheel's absence. And with no process, natural or artificial, to facilitate the transfer of souls then, as the gods said, Eora would become devoid of life as the Beyond empties.

Exactly this, I think. The gods mentioned that the entire thing they've been trying to do for thousands of years, why they were created even? was an attempt to keep kith souls strong. I think the Engwithans realized with their soul meddling that entropy was destroying mortal life on Eora and created a system (gods) to regulate the flow of souls to try to keep life going on. It worked, to a large degree, but it isn't infinitely sustainable and now Eothas wants the kith to figure out something better for themselves.

 

 

Except you can't have entropy to that degree in a closed loop system like reincarnation. Otherwise the number of souls must always continually be decreasing. Kith and animals would never have been able to increase in number and in fact must always be decreasing. The whole world has to be dying slowly which also means that in your particular interpretation, Eora must have been created more or less as it currently is, with a set number of kith and animals and must be decreasing from that point and god help them if plants have souls that breaks the setting worse. They can't have it both ways if there is entropy no reincarnation. 

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it doesn't make sense the way it is either.  Currently (with the Wheel intact) new people/animals (births) only happen with enough souls, but ALL souls are recycled, and the gods even feed off them to sustain their power.  By that system, they're facing decline, even if only pieces at a time.  At some finite time they'll hit the point where their feeding will reduce the sum total of souls to zero (or low enough that the wheel can't push souls from the in-between to 'the Beyond' and back to Eora. .  

 

The system is basically unworkable in whatever state.

 

 

It also happily retcon's PoE1 Wael's request to push the souls into the Beyond into pure gibberish, as the Wheel gets them there eventually anyway. 

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I see people talking about things being retconned but I don't see anyone talking about the idea of an unreliable narrator.

 

What if what the gods claim will happen when the wheel is destroyed isn't true? What if they don't know? Information is only ever given to the player by people in-game so the information may be wrong. Perhaps the Engwithans misinterpreted what was happening with souls. Maybe they created the wheel to fix the "problem" and in doing so disrupted the natural process.

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it doesn't make sense the way it is either.  Currently (with the Wheel intact) new people/animals (births) only happen with enough souls, but ALL souls are recycled, and the gods even feed off them to sustain their power.  By that system, they're facing decline, even if only pieces at a time.  At some finite time they'll hit the point where their feeding will reduce the sum total of souls to zero (or low enough that the wheel can't push souls from the in-between to 'the Beyond' and back to Eora. .  

 

The system is basically unworkable in whatever state.

 

 

It also happily retcon's PoE1 Wael's request to push the souls into the Beyond into pure gibberish, as the Wheel gets them there eventually anyway. 

 

I agree, either the writer who designed this world didn't understand the actual logical implications of his cosmology or one of the subsequent writers didn't. I was musing about this a week ago when beating pillars of eternity again that Eros as we know it can't work with any concept of entropy. At this point to make the lore workable I'm just going to have to assume the Egewithians and the gods they created are **** ups who don't actually understand the nature of Eros or souls all that much and are just good at screwing with both. 

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I actually think people in this thread have forgotten an old information about souls. In the guidebook vol1, it mention that a soul age and fracture over long period of time: "Souls can split apart or merge together during their long absence". That's where the concept of strong soul come from, it's a well preserved soul that isn't fractured.

 

Also, rereading the guidebook vol1 section on souls, it straight up says that gods manipulate souls and send them back to the living world through Berath's Wheel. It also says that Rymrgand wants the resurrection cycle dismantled -  ;) -.

 

 

 

 

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Azarhal, Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order of Eternity.


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The number of souls can increase because one strong soul can fragment into multiple viable souls, and over the course of a lifetime a soul can become stronger, so even weak souls can theoretically become strong enough to produce additional souls. It sounded to me like the gods were only taking small parts of souls essence that would have been cast off anyway(the little fragments you mortal kith shed like snake skin), so they wouldn't be hampering the generation of souls.

 

It also happily retcon's PoE1 Wael's request to push the souls into the Beyond into pure gibberish, as the Wheel gets them there eventually anyway. 

 

Wael didn't ask for the souls to go to the Beyond. Wael asked for the souls to be set on a random course to who knows where.

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