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the decision to not give casters a lot of spells (like POE1)


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I would just replace the whole system with traditional spell books from BG2 (for Wizard, Druid, Priest) with following changes:

 

Spell book will now have 2 types of spell slots. (think memorization slots for spells)

One per rest slot and another one per encounter slot. Number of per encounter slots will be small per level ( 1 or 2 encounterSlots.)

 

This will give spellcasters couple of spells for every fight and keeping traditional rest mechanic and spell preparation/memorization. This would be 100% better then current messy iteration v2 for spellcasters.

Edited by Ondb
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I would just replace the whole system with traditional spell books from BG2 (for Wizard, Druid, Priest) with following changes:

 

Spell book will now have 2 types of spell slots. (think memorization slots for spells)

One per rest slot and another one per encounter slot. Number of per encounter slots will be small per level ( 1 or 2 encounterSlots.)

 

This will give spellcasters couple of spells for every fight and keeping traditional rest mechanic and spell preparation/memorization. This would be 100% better then current messy iteration v2 for spellcasters.

The number of per encounter slots is already small per level (usually 2), or do I misunderstand that?

So the change would mean to only add per rest slots on top, which would make casters even more powerful.

 

BTW That sounds a lot like Spell Mastery in PoE, but with more flexibility if I understand correctly as you wouldn't have to decide on the exact spell.

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Done with Moon Godlike Wizard

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Only 2 spells of each level per encounter is too limiting for my tastes. I'd rather we have some kind of mana that regens at a fixed rate instead. 

 

It would feel much much better and balanced imho.

 

Casters in the current system are double penalized and it tottaly kills the mood for me.

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Only 2 spells of each level per encounter is too limiting for my tastes. I'd rather we have some kind of mana that regens at a fixed rate instead.

 

It would feel much much better and balanced imho.

 

Casters in the current system are double penalized and it tottaly kills the mood for me.

Then there would be zero differentiation between wizards and chanters or ciphers.

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Only 2 spells of each level per encounter is too limiting for my tastes. I'd rather we have some kind of mana that regens at a fixed rate instead.

 

It would feel much much better and balanced imho.

 

Casters in the current system are double penalized and it tottaly kills the mood for me.

Then there would be zero differentiation between wizards and chanters or ciphers.

 

Different spell selection, "mana pool", "mana regen", specializations, themes, casting/recovery times, perks, upgrades... 

 

My favorite computer rpg rendition of spellcasters was in dragon's dogma.

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I get the sense that Deadfire is begging to be set free of the archetypes and formally made into a classless system even more than PoE1 did. So many of these class distinctions either railroad you into a contrived style, or paradoxically being a distinction with barely any difference. Seems overly complicated. Just go with prerequisited talent trees and be done with it. 

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I may be one of the few here, but I actually like the new system better than the first game's.  My playstyle in PoE1 went something like this: Avoid taking companions or training adventurers of the Vancian caster type (Priest, Wizard, and Druid) since their spells are all "per rest."  Use as many classes as possible with per encounter abilities or casters like Chanter and Cipher who can freely use all their spells each fight without worrying about using up my precious camping supplies.  Only use camping supplies when I find a new set of camping supplies and can't loot them because my current stock is full.  

 

Okay, I did end up using a priest for pretty much every playthrough.  So, I only used Radiance and Interdiction in every fight and then only cast a per rest spell when it was absolutely necessary.  I felt forced to take the priest with me because without his buffs and debuffs, certain fights became a pain.  For all the 90% or more fights that a priest wasn't really needed, and before spell mastery,  he felt like dead weight.  Once I got spell mastery, I'd use those in every fight too and that made the character feel more useful.  Now every caster's spells behave as if they had that spell mastery for each one except they get two casts instead of just one.  Guess what? My casters cast every fight now without worrying about camping supplies and I like this.

 

Right now I feel like every caster has a place in my party because I don't have to worry about camping supplies and resting to restore spell uses.  If they had kept the old system for casters, again, I wouldn't be using them except where I felt they were absolutely necessary.  I'm really shocked at how good the new system feels right at launch.  Can some things be tweaked and improved?  Absolutely.  I expect that Obsidian will continue to change the game for the better in the future like they did with the first game, but overall, I'm really happy with the game the way it is now.

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The new system honestly feels great to me. It forces you to choose your spells and ensure that every level isn't a throwaway spell. Just remember, one empower also gives one more spell use to each level. This is the no spoiler section so I won't tell you where but certain spellbooks have unique spells in them. You can't learn those versions so you can only use them by equipping that grimoire, one of them is particularly powerful albeit annoying to obtain.

 

Plus, per rest spells were just cancerous, thank god they abandoned that system. In BG2, you had a crap ton of slots so that's fine but in POE1, I honestly didn't want to waste a rest just to restore my wizard's spells. My advice is get to PL7+ for wizard and then you will start to realize that you actually have a lot of spells to play with.

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I had completed PoE 1 on POTD (either solo or with a party) with a druid, a wizard, a cipher and a rogue. All of these classes had certain pros and cons and all of them were fairly balanced once adjusted to their role. None of these classes were particularly good at straight-up melee until they were buffed, which is where the melee classes shined. It was also quite nice being able to adjust to different circumstances fairly effortlessly.

 

I played my first 2 hours of PoE 2 with a druid, which is one of my favourite classes. I found the limited spell selection (maybe I chose bad spells) to be a very big letdown and I tended to use him mostly in melee in shapeshifted form. Since druids and priests don’t have grimoires, any changes in spells require a retrain. Not the biggest deal, but rather than buying camping supplies, I will just head back to an inn to retrain.

 

In fairness though, the recent changes have made spellcasters much more powerful. Who needs flexibility when you can just nuke every encounter?

 

The current method reminds me of the Dragon Age 2 system, i.e. a dumbed down system where people would just spam their special powers after they cooled down. PoE2’s system is not quite that bad, but after my initial druid experience, I restarted as a monk. That playstyle seems to fit into the PoE2 universe much better.

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The thing is, caster 'utility' has already been nerfed with the shrinking of Grimoires from 4 to 2.

"Cooking the books" seems to be a largely unnecessary and overly limiting nerf. Spellcasters were not THAT much more powerful in PoE.

Is there a perception that level 8 and 9 spells suck so much that multi-class characters ride shotgun over basic classes?

I mean, even if you were to pick a specific theme(buffing, DD, CC, etc...) with 2 spells, you barely have enough room to cover that one category; you don't get the "for every occasion" utility from such a narrow range of spells.

Priests and Druids aren't as squishy as Wizards, and don't have the same issue because they were already physically versatile.

Edited by spardeous
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I always play a wizard in CRPG, it’s my favorite class and I’m very disapointed by this restrictions. It’s like DD4 system and it’s failing.

 

We cannot used spell like a non-magic capacity. Using a switch grimoire system with unique spell is maybe a good idea but WE MUST BE ABBLE TO CHOOSE AND CUSTOMIZE SPELLS in a vaste collection.

 

The main wizard’s trait is to be a Polyvalent Swiss Knife.

 

Seriously can you imagin a powerfull archmagus or a lich with only the knowledge for two spells by level?

 

It’s not roleplay ans not a good mechanic.

Edited by DaKatarn
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Is there a perception that level 8 and 9 spells suck so much that multi-class characters ride shotgun over basic classes?

 

Well, the reason why I picked a single class over a multi-class is this: I want to get access to my most powerful abilities as early in the game as possible.  Builds which are great only at or near max level don't have the same draw for me as builds that are as powerful in the beginning and middle as in the end of the game.

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Is there a perception that level 8 and 9 spells suck so much that multi-class characters ride shotgun over basic classes?

 

Well, the reason why I picked a single class over a multi-class is this: I want to get access to my most powerful abilities as early in the game as possible.  Builds which are great only at or near max level don't have the same draw for me as builds that are as powerful in the beginning and middle as in the end of the game.

 

Isn't this typically the opposite of how caster progression works? They start out weak and vulnerable, and by end-game they are head of the pack.

 

In Deadfire, they start out weak, but don't seem to improve enough (in comparison to other classes and multi-classed characters) to justify single-class. If the level 8 and 9 spells were truly great, maybe it wouldn't be such an issue. But to me, it seems like the advantages of being say, a Wizard/Fighter hybrid and getting all of those nice modal abilities and excellent survivability outweigh the small gains of full spell progression by a lot.

 

I'm playing a pure wizard right now, and have specced Aloth as a Battlemage, and so far -- compared to the durability and damage potential I have seen from Aloth -- not multi-classing my main has seemed like a huge mistake.

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Yeah my only issue with the spells is in a long battle (since you can only use one empower per fight) I tended to run out. =/ at least let me use 2 empowers per battle.

But that's were usefulness of consumables comes into place, be it granades or scrolls. While scrolls and potions were very useful in soloruns, I barely used them in fulll comp. In Deadfire sometimes useing healing potion instead of free healing spell is desirable. Appreciating new system more and more, especially during tougher fights.

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Are casters frustrating to play in Deadfire?

Not really, fact that you dont need to rest untill you are heavy injured or run out of Empowerment makes game more smooth.

 

Are casters weak?

Dosnt look so far, ability to unload everything you have at the start of encounter and then switch to weapon to mop leftovers is quite good.

All without regrets that you will need that spells later on.

 

Are casters fun?

Fun is in the eye of beholder.

There is a need fore some extra planning picking spells, like CC on different defensive, or nukes on different dmg types. But for others it is fun.

It could be fun to use all your arsenal, not saving best spells for boss fights.

It could be fun to MC with wizzard, and just get good grimoir, not powerful, but not so common archetype in crpg.\

Sorcerers could be super fun.

Edited by evilcat
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I am sad with this few spells option and happy with spells per encounter.

I didn't like the rest system.

 

Spells are the main weapon for casters, at least for druid, wizard and priest. For cipher and chanter can be useful too.

 

I doubt that Obsidian will change this, but I think that would be a good idea to give one more ability point through level up, maybe for single class option

Casters using points to get passive abilites, they won't learn new spells at all.

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I am sad with this few spells option and happy with spells per encounter.

I didn't like the rest system.

 

Spells are the main weapon for casters, at least for druid, wizard and priest. For cipher and chanter can be useful too.

 

I doubt that Obsidian will change this, but I think that would be a good idea to give one more ability point through level up, maybe for single class option

Casters using points to get passive abilites, they won't learn new spells at all.

I think it's a good idea, IMO this is three fix for Wizards:

 

1/ One more spell slot by level.

 

2/ If wizard monoclass, two more spell by level.

 

3/ Grimoire's customisation with the possibility to do our own compilation of spell. One grimoire for Cc, one grimoire for dps, etc... And not a frozen grimoire without any liberty of choice.( Maybe in a special merchant)

Edited by DaKatarn
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Wizard is a pit of

It kinda helps that not knowing a bunch of spells make it so that the wizard isn't prepared for every possible encounter situation. Most of the popular spell choice can barely be used in encounters.

Wizard is a pit of arcanic knowledge, 2 spell by level is a shame and it's just a spam fight after fight. Boring and brainless for me. A good possibility will be to custom grimoires.

 

For the moment it's a real lack of liberty and a real nerf of gameplay. Wizard is a versatile swiss knife, an apparently weak swisslife.

Edited by DaKatarn
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Early on, I'm not a huge fan of the limited selection in combination with making everything per-enc. For something like a wizard, we go from a model where you are making two interesting kinds of choices (which spells from the list, whether to conserve slots for later), to a model that basically loses both of those dimensions (eh I'll just cast the same things I always cast until I run out).

 

If you always played by casting everything and resting each fight, this probably isn't hugely different, maybe more convenient. For me, it does seem to reduce choices and variety in combat. But we'll see how it fares with higher levels and such.

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I kinda feel that spellcasters should have one resource pool that they use for all spells rather than it being divided by spell level, or at least be able to use a higher level spell slot to cast a lower level spell. With it being limited to two per level I kind of feel like it is a trap to take more than two spells at each level otherwise, but that could be just me.

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Wizard is a pit of

It kinda helps that not knowing a bunch of spells make it so that the wizard isn't prepared for every possible encounter situation. Most of the popular spell choice can barely be used in encounters.

Wizard is a pit of arcanic knowledge, 2 spell by level is a shame and it's just a spam fight after fight. Boring and brainless for me. A good possibility will be to custom grimoires.

 

For the moment it's a real lack of liberty and a real nerf of gameplay. Wizard is a versatile swiss knife, an apparently weak swisslife.

 

 

Lack of available skills isn't really the real issue. Most people will always stick to the favorite spell they are used to. This is kinda why everyone always use stuff like Chillfog/Slicken at all level and never really bother to waste their resource point on other spells even if they have em in the grimoire.

 

The only time they ever switch it around is when they run into encounter script and it states right there that a wizard can clear this encounter with X spell so they just swap it in.

 

Wizard can be a pit of knowledge but even the archwizard (the top dog like concel, arkemyr and llengrath) has limited knowledge on subject outside their specialization and spells they can use. This really fits with the world more than the system in PoE1. If the wizard is an evocation expert, he should be excepted to know more about evocation than a bunch of self-buff or conjuration spell. The school system is actually implemented with this change.

Edited by Zeitzbach
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