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Riftis

A few questions regarding armour

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The system as I understand it is as follows, but let me know if it's been changed cause it could be outdated: 

 

When rolling for an attack, your penetration is checked vs the targets armour for the type(s) of damage you're doing. If its less than their armour, you deal 30% damage, if its equal or greater, you deal full damage, and if it's double or more, you get a 30% bonus.

 

Presuming the system hasn't been changed, is that 30% bonus damage additive or multiplicative?

Are the mechanics the same in reverse, when someone hits you? 

 

 

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Some backer beta players will come in your aide but in the mean time I can answer your questions as good as I can.

 

The 30% bonus for over-penetration is multiplicative.

 

The bonus/malus of penetration are for enemies too.

 

The system changed, the "no penetration malus" instead of going immediately to 30% with one point of difference it scales to <1 = 75%,  then <2 = 50%, than <3 = 25%.

Edited by Daled
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The system changed, the "no penetration malus" instead of going immediately to 30% with one point of difference it scales to <1 = 75%,  then <2 = 50%, than <3 = 25%.

Well, I like that better than the original system, though you still need double the pen to get the 30% damage boost, rather than it scaling up to that? Am I correct in assuming that this is more of a bonus that adds some extra damage to your crits if you have enough pen than something you should be aiming to get for your regular hits?

 

I like the idea of playing a blackjacket with various melee weapons who always uses the best one for their resistance, but even with a bunch of weapons (and maybe multiclassing to get +2pen) it seems like it'd just be an inconsistent way of getting a measly 30% damage bonus, when I could just play a pure or multiclass rogue and setup situations where I can get a 50% bonus instead. Thematically speaking I like the idea of playing a blackjacket a lot, but mechanically? Ehhhh I mean this is all theorycrafting but it doesn't sound good on paper. I don't wanna make a cheesy blackjacket that just weaponswaps firearms, I want a blackjacket as it's meant to be, but not if it's bad. Anyway I digress.  

 

Doesn't the armour system as it is currently create a bit of a 'deadzone', where because enemies need double your armour value to get the pen bonus, theres a wide gap where for many fights you may as well wear lighter armour for the quicker action speed? Idk, I like how the new armour system creates penetration as a new primary stat for dealing damage, but at least on paper it still seems a bit lackluster to me and I wish there were still some sort of flat damage reduction. (is there any?)   

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Actually, the current deadzone seems to be light armor existing at all. Unless you're stacking DR from various class bonuses\abilities, everything pens. So wearing light armor involves taking a recovery penalty for no reason.

 

At the same time, most recovery times are so horrid (in beta4), that wearing heavy armor means being unable to accomplish much of anything. (Seriously, six to seven second recovery times are awful)

 

It's a very weird system, where assassins want the biggest thing they can find and protecting yourself (with gear) limits your utility.

 

I suspect one of the best 'tanks' in the game will be a wizard\rogue. Riposte, persistent distraction and a suite of buff spells.

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Actually, the current deadzone seems to be light armor existing at all. 

Ah, but there is a deadzone? I thought there would be. Light armour being redundant does make sense, the system even in its revised state does seem to punish players for wearing light armour, they can't just give the enemies lower pen to make light armour relevant cause then heavy armour players would nullify enemy attacks. The more I think about it the more I miss the flat damage reduction from pillars 1. I do see the potential for this system, I love what penetration is trying to be as a stat in the current iteration but idk, it still sounds like it needs work and its so close to launch...   

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Currently you have the option between two extremes:

- play a naked char and try to kill enemies as fast as possible. You should have a good defense and some ways of healing.

- Stack as much AR as possible and accept that you are slow as hell

 

Everything in between means that you will take lots of damage AND you are also very slow.

 

I liked the system of PoE1 better. Every point of DR you got had at least some use.

Now most armor is useless unless you have tons of AR. ( critical hits increase penetration by 50%)

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if i'm not wrong i've seen from some recent gameplay that there are light armor (6 AR iirc) with 0% reovery, so there seem to be a way to be fast and to not get overpenetrated at least (assuming that enemies will have similar PEN to player weapons)

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I think light armor is still useful to prevent over penetration. Also, there are ways to get AR from things like Potion of Spirit Shield for those times you're really close to the line, and several front line fighters can learn passives to make armor even better (Barbarians early on can get a +1 to Pierce, Slash, Blunt armor iirc, and Fighters at power level 5 can reduce recovery time, making heavy armor about the same as medium armor but with all the benefits of heavy). 

 

The biggest factor, and one we can't know anything about yet, will actually be the enemies we face. Everyone is saying Light is a deadzone and that's maybe true in the beta (maybe not for every fight) but in the full game the penetration values of the enemies you face will be a massive influence on how effective armor "feels". 

 

Also, just between two medium armor types (scale and mail) there can be a huge difference depending on what you face. If you are wearing scale armor with low AR vs. Piercing and getting pummeled by Bounding Missiles cast by enemy mages, you're going to crumple fast. If you have Mail armor on though, their damage will be minimal. But you can't know until you face them a few times AND know they are coming. 

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Does cloth armor/clothing still exist, and if so, does it serve any practical purpose?

 

Because you know, I'd rather give my dudes snazzy togas rather than watch them slay monsters in their undies.

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Does cloth armor/clothing still exist, and if so, does it serve any practical purpose?

 

Because you know, I'd rather give my dudes snazzy togas rather than watch them slay monsters in their undies.

There are definitely clothes in the beta.

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There are several different kinds of cloth from different parts of the world.

But I am still hoping for noble cloth for both man and woman.

It would be nice to have some decent cloth for your parade after you save the city from a dragon ;)

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Currently you have the option between two extremes:

- play a naked char and try to kill enemies as fast as possible. You should have a good defense and some ways of healing.

- Stack as much AR as possible and accept that you are slow as hell

 

Everything in between means that you will take lots of damage AND you are also very slow.

I do hope they adjust the system to make all types of armour relevant. From a thematic standpoint medium armour has always been my favorite so this is a bit disheartening. 

 

The biggest factor, and one we can't know anything about yet, will actually be the enemies we face. Everyone is saying Light is a deadzone and that's maybe true in the beta (maybe not for every fight) but in the full game the penetration values of the enemies you face will be a massive influence on how effective armor "feels". 

Even if they do add a variety of enemies with different penetration levels, it doesn't change the fact that the system as it stands can create deadzones where changing armour up or down makes zero difference on your defenses in a given fight and only impacts your action speed. Equipping better armour that comes with a bigger drawback should always net you better results, except in the instances where the enemy is using attacks that beat the weakness of that armour, at least in my view.  

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There are definitely clothes in the beta.

 

There are several different kinds of cloth from different parts of the world.

 

Thank you for your answers, that's good to know!

 

I have one more related question, if I may: do clothes in PoE 2 count as no armor, light armor, or heavy armor? Is it one of those three categories, or am I misinterpreting the new system?

Edited by Skazz

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I think that is over simplifying things a little, not all enemies in a fight have the same penetration (and if they have they really shouldn't), plus you don't only choose your armor based on its rating (although important).

 

Which would be the solution anyway? The only possibility I see is randomize pen (of course still based on weapon, something like +-25% the starting value) and personally I don't really like more randomness  :grin:

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The biggest factor, and one we can't know anything about yet, will actually be the enemies we face. Everyone is saying Light is a deadzone and that's maybe true in the beta (maybe not for every fight) but in the full game the penetration values of the enemies you face will be a massive influence on how effective armor "feels". 

 

Equipping better amour that comes with a bigger drawback should always net you better results.

 

What you gain wearing heavy armors is the peace of mind to be covered in the most possible situations. You go lighter armor, you run the risk of getting hit very hard from a crit or just a heavy hitting enemy with a two handed weapon. I agree the penalty for such safety is a bit too high, the recovery time on heavy armor is crazy especially with two handed weapons, so hopefully that gets adjusted at some point. I highly recommend Perception Resistance for anyone wearing heavy armor, as being blinded is just the worst with heavy armor on.

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Which would be the solution anyway? The only possibility I see is randomize pen (of course still based on weapon, something like +-25% the starting value) and personally I don't really like more randomness  :grin:

It's difficult for me to come up with a solution to a problem when I haven't even playtested the game, maybe I'm getting all up in arms over nothing, or maybe this really is an issue. as for a solution though, I don't think this would work without potentially adjusting penetration values across the board, but instead of having a flat damage bonus when you have double penetration to their armour, make the damage slowly scale up the more pen you get, and the same in reverse. The lower your pen is compared to their armour, the less damage you do on a scale, that goes down maybe 5 or 10% per point. Admittedly this almost completely throws the current system out the window, but it still allows penetration to be a primary stat for dealing damage. To make penetration seem like its actually doing its job of penetrating through armour, the percentage of damage you should lose for not meeting their armour should be greater than the percentage you gain from having more than their armour, but it'd be way less than it is currently. 

 

Anyway those were just my thoughts off the top of my head, idk if it would actually help or not but I do think there should be some sort of tweaking.   

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I think that they have consciously decided not to go linear to have a more clear cutting point or the would have kept the DR system. I really don't have an opinion right know since I haven't played the game but, if I'm not mistaken, some beta experts have similar concerns to yours.

 

The good news is that Obsidian is always open to tweaking and should be easily moddable if you want to try how linear scale works.

Edited by Daled

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Currently you have the option between two extremes:

- play a naked char and try to kill enemies as fast as possible. You should have a good defense and some ways of healing.

- Stack as much AR as possible and accept that you are slow as hell

 

Everything in between means that you will take lots of damage AND you are also very slow.

 

I liked the system of PoE1 better. Every point of DR you got had at least some use.

Now most armor is useless unless you have tons of AR. ( critical hits increase penetration by 50%)

 

that sounds worrying and badly designed? are they going to change it?

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The AR/Pen system is a lot easier to follow. It may not be perfect, but it feels a lot better than having your damage get reduced by DR, from what I've seen.

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I think light armor is still useful to prevent over penetration. Also, there are ways to get AR from things like Potion of Spirit Shield for those times you're really close to the line, and several front line fighters can learn passives to make armor even better (Barbarians early on can get a +1 to Pierce, Slash, Blunt armor iirc, and Fighters at power level 5 can reduce recovery time, making heavy armor about the same as medium armor but with all the benefits of heavy). 

 

The biggest factor, and one we can't know anything about yet, will actually be the enemies we face. Everyone is saying Light is a deadzone and that's maybe true in the beta (maybe not for every fight) but in the full game the penetration values of the enemies you face will be a massive influence on how effective armor "feels". 

 

Also, just between two medium armor types (scale and mail) there can be a huge difference depending on what you face. If you are wearing scale armor with low AR vs. Piercing and getting pummeled by Bounding Missiles cast by enemy mages, you're going to crumple fast. If you have Mail armor on though, their damage will be minimal. But you can't know until you face them a few times AND know they are coming. 

 

Even if you do know.. wouldn't be keep changing armor a tedium?

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I think light armor is still useful to prevent over penetration. Also, there are ways to get AR from things like Potion of Spirit Shield for those times you're really close to the line, and several front line fighters can learn passives to make armor even better (Barbarians early on can get a +1 to Pierce, Slash, Blunt armor iirc, and Fighters at power level 5 can reduce recovery time, making heavy armor about the same as medium armor but with all the benefits of heavy). 

 

The biggest factor, and one we can't know anything about yet, will actually be the enemies we face. Everyone is saying Light is a deadzone and that's maybe true in the beta (maybe not for every fight) but in the full game the penetration values of the enemies you face will be a massive influence on how effective armor "feels". 

 

Also, just between two medium armor types (scale and mail) there can be a huge difference depending on what you face. If you are wearing scale armor with low AR vs. Piercing and getting pummeled by Bounding Missiles cast by enemy mages, you're going to crumple fast. If you have Mail armor on though, their damage will be minimal. But you can't know until you face them a few times AND know they are coming. 

 

Even if you do know.. wouldn't be keep changing armor a tedium?

 

 

Yeah, definitely. But it is interesting how much of a difference the right armor can make. I imagine on anything less than PotD it will be fine to just wear whatever armor fits your build (and let's not forget the various magical and higher quality armors and equipment we can't factor in) and sometimes you'll be the bug, and sometimes you'll be the windshield.

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The AR/Pen system is a lot easier to follow. It may not be perfect, but it feels a lot better than having your damage get reduced by DR, from what I've seen.

The main problem with DR wasn't that it was hard to figure out, it wast hat it was basically worthless at high levels. -20 from  200 damage attack in exchange for 50% recovery penalty? No thanks.

 

This sounds like it introduces another problem that applies to every character level though.

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The AR/Pen system is a lot easier to follow. It may not be perfect, but it feels a lot better than having your damage get reduced by DR, from what I've seen.

The main problem with DR wasn't that it was hard to figure out, it wast hat it was basically worthless at high levels. -20 from  200 damage attack in exchange for 50% recovery penalty? No thanks.

 

This sounds like it introduces another problem that applies to every character level though.

 

 

I will say I was taking care to observe how the armor/pen system felt in the stream last week (at character level 18) and it wasn't too far from the beta, in terms of enemies that were resilient to some attacks and players that got hit very hard for being out of position, so we can hope the system stays level/even through the game based on the balance curve they must have used while designing encounters.

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The AR/Pen system is a lot easier to follow. It may not be perfect, but it feels a lot better than having your damage get reduced by DR, from what I've seen.

The main problem with DR wasn't that it was hard to figure out, it wast hat it was basically worthless at high levels. -20 from  200 damage attack in exchange for 50% recovery penalty? No thanks.

 

This sounds like it introduces another problem that applies to every character level though.

 

 

 

Oh right... and now the dragon breath for 200 damage with 20 pen... 

 

The problem with bad number making (like trying to put stupid high damage for no apparent reason on some attacks) will not change.

 

The adra dragon will just have 20 pen in everyattack and everyone will remove armor to face him cause it wont change a thing.

 

To me, PoE 1 had some of the BEST armor mechanics i ever saw in any RPG (including tabletop) and the new pen system was the second biggest letdown i am having with PoE2. (How they are handling power level and talents being the biggest one)

 

 

To me, mechanicwise, PoE 2 is worse than PoE 1 in every single way (well, one saving grace is now being able to really see how speed impact your actions).

 

 

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