Is anyone concerned about Multiclass/Single Class Balance?

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

I take Fun over Balance any day. Fallout1/2 were rather on the unbalanced side but extremely entertaining. I prefer a game that allows me to build a crippled character and actually makes me feel the hardship rather than a game where every character feels more or less the same. 

Do multi classes in PoE 2 offer any difference to the RPG experience besides combat ? 

[Wormerine]

I take Fun over Balance any day. Fallout1/2 were rather on the unbalanced side but extremely entertaining. I prefer a game that allows me to build a crippled character and actually makes me feel the hardship rather than a game where every character feels more or less the same. 

Do multi classes in PoE 2 offer any difference to the RPG experience besides combat ? 

Fallut structure is a bit different though, as combat is part of the game but not core part of the game. It is absolutely possible to create a smart, charismatic guy with a high speech ability and play the game that way. In PoE combat is integral part of the experience. Class that doesn't contribute in combat is no good.

 

Beyond unlcking some unique dialogue lines, no it doesn't.

[Gromnir]

I take Fun over Balance any day.

 

classic false dichotomy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Phyriel]

Its a hard topic, guess I'd need to see full game to make my mind, when I think back to poe 1 wizard i guess it would be harder to finish all the hardest end game fights without highest level spells, but then being able to specialize into evocation and have double spell procs paired with lets say priest multiclass for some immunity spells? Its really hard to judge at this point. On paper it seems weak to give up highest level spells just for something that you can probably cover more or less with scrolls and potions but what do I know, I don't have beta so...

 

I see some value in having "bad" choices in character progression, having everything equally useful at all times kinda kills the learning curve of the game. I wish tho that bad choices were more "masked" aka temp you to pick them more by giving you something like small, even minimal % chance to proc something actually good etc. Otherwise if you have a good, optimal choice that gives you +X acuracy +X damage +Xspeed against something that is obviously useless or nearly useless or at best super niche then you kinda tunnel people into picking those good talents. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Phyriel

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

Yes Fallout is very different, but it is not easy to balance all classes while keeping distinctive/interesting gameplay, i know not a single title that managed that. I would rather accept imbalance if it improves the distinction between classes. Of course i would prefer the best of both worlds with distinctive and balanced classes but i doubt that is possible with the time/budget that Obsidian got.

 

 

I take Fun over Balance any day. Fallout1/2 were rather on the unbalanced side but extremely entertaining. I prefer a game that allows me to build a crippled character and actually makes me feel the hardship rather than a game where every character feels more or less the same. 

Do multi classes in PoE 2 offer any difference to the RPG experience besides combat ? 

Fallut structure is a bit different though, as combat is part of the game but not core part of the game. It is absolutely possible to create a smart, charismatic guy with a high speech ability and play the game that way. In PoE combat is integral part of the experience. Class that doesn't contribute in combat is no good.

Beyond unlcking some unique dialogue lines, no it doesn't.

 

[SonicMage117]

"It doesn't matter if we're talking a.i or classes, balance is balance."

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

I don't think necessarily that because a few people can play and beat the game with one player that the game is not balanced. I have seen people on youtube solo llangreth and concealhaut and I still struggle to do the same with a full party after over 700 hours of game play - last 200 on potd which I have completed about 3-4 times now (i don't min max and never will). I think it says more about the player and their play style.

 

But then when I look at what they have to do to beat llangreth with one character - exploit the system: find a place where you can only be attacked by two creatures, constantly hide, eat enough food for week etc, exploit bugs in the system etc. then they aren't really playing the game as far as I'm concerned... I may eventually try soloing myself but it won't be "playing" the game - for me it would be cheating or an exeercise in using a spread sheet to find the best mechnical PC that you can make - and missing almost all content via stealth because it's not doable alone - not really.

 

As fas as YT videos go I really like Immanuel Cans 400 + videos of his PotD roleplay with a party of 6 - now those are entertaining videos.

 

I haven't played deadfire - I'm going to wait half a year for the bugs to be fixed - but from what I have seen on YT it seems to be aimed more at the spread sheet min-maxer - at least on the videos I have seen. I hope I'm wrong about this

Edited April 4, 2018 by ArnoldRimmer

[Achilles]

I suspect that the TCS achievements only exist so that Josh could conduct game balance experiments on willing lab rats.

[CENIC]

from what I have seen on YT it seems to be aimed more at the spread sheet min-maxer - at least on the videos I have seen. I hope I'm wrong about this

 

It isn't. People who are passionate enough about the game to play on the hardest difficulty level AND post all of it on YouTube are a tiny, tiny fraction of the playerbase.

[Achilles]

 

from what I have seen on YT it seems to be aimed more at the spread sheet min-maxer - at least on the videos I have seen. I hope I'm wrong about this

It isn't. People who are passionate enough about the game to play on the hardest difficulty level AND post all of it on YouTube are a tiny, tiny fraction of the playerbase.

0.1% of all Steam players

[SonicMage117]

Yes, here are the statistics...

http://steamspy.com/app/291650

 

With over a million owners/players, 0.1% is around 1,300 players. That's not really any different from any other game on Steam that has a hard difficulty achievement showing a percentage by count comparison but too bad we'll never know the real numbers since Steam achievements do not take offline players into account.

[molotov.]

Yes, Nerdcommando has demonstrated that issue in his new video, because the early talents are so bad a multiclass character will suffer from level 1-10, the chanter is a great example, possible the best single class in the game, the chanter has some great summons in the early stages, so a chanter level 6 will be able to be much more effective on a fight than a chanter/wizard level 8.

This can be fixed by introducing some good talents on the first and second line of skills and talents, but then again the single class will suffer, good luck Josh!

[Phyriel]

I don't think necessarily that because a few people can play and beat the game with one player that the game is not balanced. I have seen people on youtube solo llangreth and concealhaut and I still struggle to do the same with a full party after over 700 hours of game play - last 200 on potd which I have completed about 3-4 times now (i don't min max and never will). I think it says more about the player and their play style.

 

But then when I look at what they have to do to beat llangreth with one character - exploit the system: find a place where you can only be attacked by two creatures, constantly hide, eat enough food for week etc, exploit bugs in the system etc. then they aren't really playing the game as far as I'm concerned... I may eventually try soloing myself but it won't be "playing" the game - for me it would be cheating or an exeercise in using a spread sheet to find the best mechnical PC that you can make - and missing almost all content via stealth because it's not doable alone - not really.

 

As fas as YT videos go I really like Immanuel Cans 400 + videos of his PotD roleplay with a party of 6 - now those are entertaining videos.

 

I haven't played deadfire - I'm going to wait half a year for the bugs to be fixed - but from what I have seen on YT it seems to be aimed more at the spread sheet min-maxer - at least on the videos I have seen. I hope I'm wrong about this

 

That's interesting what you're saying in a sense that it made me think... I actually finished game solo on potd with multiple classes (only the ones that doesn't require skipping/splitpulling content) and with multiple parties. Each time I'd say it was overall easier for me to finish the game solo than with a party and that's a fundamental observation to be had I think. Because in solo you build to be self sufficient, tanky enough to be able to deal enough damage to kill before you get killed but with party you build a machine, if one gear cease to function (gets one shoted as you got careless, lazy or else) the whole machine collapses because members of the party depend on each other much more than a solo char.

 

Ofc nothing stops you from building 6 chars same as you'd build them for solo but then I'd say you're just stretching boundaries of what game is supposed to be way too much and I'd risk saying that providing challenge for people that are willing to be bordering cheating/exploiting is not a thing game should aim to be. 

[Yosharian]

 

 

 

 

I’m a back beta tester and I’d say 90% of the content you mentioned is wrong and misleading, they don’t move any abilities and multclass is still pretty good.

> I’m a back beta tester

 

what does that mean?

I mean we play the backer beta and we all help test the game right? but I just mean I have access to backer beta and I don’t agree the comment he made about multclass a.

 

 

It would be nice if you disagreed by actually facing the opposing arguments with some numbers, facts etc. The guy you disagreed with was just summarizing video by Nerd Commando which was quite in-depth review of the current state of the beta. So what are you precisely disagreeing with? or rather what argument would you bring to the table to face some facts that were shown in the video. I watched that thing in full and he actually show in game, as a fact, the things you disagree with...

 

 

I would be delighted if you were right, Yosharian, and I also know from long experiencce that Nerd Commando has his own partuclalr slant on all things RPG, but nevertheless, what he deomostrated was concerning and I too would like to hear more detail.

 

As I explained my issue is I plan to play PotD and I need to know how far I should dip into this multi-class thing. I'm not an uber power player by any means, I am roleplayer that has come to enjoy playing on max difficulty in these games and am therefore mixing a bit of judicious min-maxing to expedite that. I don't want to find out mid-game that one or more of my builds sucks big time and have to restart.

 

To put this another way, woth PoE's very traditional and single class approach I knew where I was from long experience with cRPGs. With this I feel completely at sea and riven by indecision, fear, uncertainlty and doubt. I'm getting conflicting messages and have no means to evaluate them since this is such a new system.

 

 

Ok but you're responding to Phyriel, not me

[Phyriel]

I don't really care that much about multiclassing tbh. If it ends up sucking big time I won't cry as I find it more as a forced feature to make PoE2 look like it expanded on the first game. If they make it work then its all good but I doubt they will. I'd care for multiclasses if it actually had some flair to it but the way it looks from videos (i don't have beta) its just that you play your main class but make it a bit more versatile by mixing it with mechanics of different class which is cool but I doubt game will provide environment challenging enough to actually require that much versatility from a full party. It's certainly appealing for my solo play urges and from RP stand point of view it's also great but I don't find it making or breaking the game. 

 

I'd love idea of multi classing for casters that if you mix caster classes you get unique spells that are fused together like you can use a mage buff but because you're also a bit of cipher as a second class it can for example proc as an rng effect a lesser version of regular cipher spell or if you're a second class with a priest you can use a mage spell that is mixed with some lesser immunity buff (but instead getting immunity you get +defensive rolls). If that was the idea behind multiclassing i'd be hyped for it but as it stands you just play two classes that are weaker but its beneficial in some cases because gained mechanic of 2nd class outshines pure bonuses from levels. Blah that's so dull. It was ok in Baldurs Gate as it  opened up options for certain encounters for classes that otherwise couldn't do anything solo, because for ex. enemies were totally immune to spells for example and you could only damage them with +5 weapon or some **** and you actually needed to mix a class that can wield a weapon type of +5 weapon that u were able to find in that stage of the game. That kind of versatility requirement is absent in PoE encounters as they are less rock paper scissors 

 

That being said I think versatility should come at price of being less powerful in your main role. So yea I generally think single class should be more powerful in what they do than a multiclass... that seems obvious to me. Its just a matter of question how valuable gained versatility will be or better said how required it will be at times. If game won't have encounters that require your party to be much more versatile than it would be with single classes (because of scripted encounters that for example make some of your party unavailable for some time) then I think multiclassing will be only beneficial for selected classes and diminished to pure RP choices for others but I'm fine with that I mean... even from RP stand point of view some multi classes don't make sense if you go for pure power... like if you're a wizard your power are your spells and being a bit of a bar brawler at the side won't make you better at killing dragons... bah if your bar brawls cost your brain a potential to comprehend most sophisticated spells then I'd say you made some questionable choices in life as a character. But hey atleast you can take a hit!

 

It would obviously change if mixing a caster with a rogue would give you unique mechanics like something as easy as cast faster for example? or with a monk? making your spells stronger as you take damage promoting this idea of a mage that doesn't use deflection and "you can't hit me for ****" spells but instead wants to take damage and balances between life and death and then and only then he's at the peak of power. Honestly I think multiclassing will end up being wasted potential due to lack of this creative approach that'd introduce unique mechanics that would be hard to put on paper against raw numbers of single class... and thus tempting and playable.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Phyriel

[Yenkaz]

I don't really care that much about multiclassing tbh. If it ends up sucking big time I won't cry as I find it more as a forced feature to make PoE2 look like it expanded on the first game. If they make it work then its all good but I doubt they will. I'd care for multiclasses if it actually had some flair to it but the way it looks from videos (i don't have beta) its just that you play your main class but make it a bit more versatile by mixing it with mechanics of different class which is cool but I doubt game will provide environment challenging enough to actually require that much versatility from a full party. It's certainly appealing for my solo play urges and from RP stand point of view it's also great but I don't find it making or breaking the game.

 

I'd love idea of multi classing for casters that if you mix caster classes you get unique spells that are fused together like you can use a mage buff but because you're also a bit of cipher as a second class it can for example proc as an rng effect a lesser version of regular cipher spell or if you're a second class with a priest you can use a mage spell that is mixed with some lesser immunity buff (but instead getting immunity you get +defensive rolls). If that was the idea behind multiclassing i'd be hyped for it but as it stands you just play two classes that are weaker but its beneficial in some cases because gained mechanic of 2nd class outshines pure bonuses from levels. Blah that's so dull. It was ok in Baldurs Gate as it opened up options for certain encounters for classes that otherwise couldn't do anything solo, because for ex. enemies were totally immune to spells for example and you could only damage them with +5 weapon or some **** and you actually needed to mix a class that can wield a weapon type of +5 weapon that u were able to find in that stage of the game. That kind of versatility requirement is absent in PoE encounters as they are less rock paper scissors

 

That being said I think versatility should come at price of being less powerful in your main role. So yea I generally think single class should be more powerful in what they do than a multiclass... that seems obvious to me. Its just a matter of question how valuable gained versatility will be or better said how required it will be at times. If game won't have encounters that require your party to be much more versatile than it would be with single classes (because of scripted encounters that for example make some of your party unavailable for some time) then I think multiclassing will be only beneficial for selected classes and diminished to pure RP choices for others but I'm fine with that I mean... even from RP stand point of view some multi classes don't make sense if you go for pure power... like if you're a wizard your power are your spells and being a bit of a bar brawler at the side won't make you better at killing dragons... bah if your bar brawls cost your brain a potential to comprehend most sophisticated spells then I'd say you made some questionable choices in life as a character. But hey atleast you can take a hit!

 

It would obviously change if mixing a caster with a rogue would give you unique mechanics like something as easy as cast faster for example? or with a monk? making your spells stronger as you take damage promoting this idea of a mage that doesn't use deflection and "you can't hit me for ****" spells but instead wants to take damage and balances between life and death and then and only then he's at the peak of power. Honestly I think multiclassing will end up being wasted potential due to lack of this creative approach that'd introduce unique mechanics that would be hard to put on paper against raw numbers of single class... and thus tempting and playable.

The trouble with this obviously being that by making every single class mixable with any other class makes it near impossible to make unique mechanics for each mix. I do personally prefer a more pure class system with more flavourful subclasses.

 

That all said, multiclassing in BG2 was pretty much just straight up leveling two distinct classes and then gluing them together...

Edited April 5, 2018 by Yenkaz

[Mannock]

Nope, because:

 

1) “damage output” is only one mechanic and

2) this isn’t about what “I want”. The argument was “people will bitch if their favorite class sucks”. Yes, “suck” is subjective. I’m not sure what that has to do with the argument though. You could point out that water is wet at it would be just about as relevant.

But as long as not all classes are even (in all respects) people will bitch about their specific favourite class being crap. The only way to remedy that is to make all classes the same (in whatever categories you wish to pick).

 

And if you did that, I bet you'd have even more people complain about the fact that all classes are the same.

 

At no point will everyone agree that this or that system is perfect.

[Phyriel]

Obviously you wouldn't be able to multiclass everything. Yes I agree about bg2 multiclassing but as I said it worked there just fine because you had environment that reacted to that in a rewarding way. 

 

About classes being same or different (some worse). That's the design flaw of the environment, if we had world that have you include a "weak" class in your party because at some point this weak class is vital to get through some scripted encounters or you name it then it would be acceptable but as it stands and from what I've seen from beta videos and fights its kinda flat in that regard. PoE2 imo should've expanded on optional content like endless paths in PoE1 and this content should promote certain classes via mechanics of it or RP elements, like I dunno some traps that require some rogue specific talent for traps or mage tower that have some puzzles that only mage can solve. 

 

I know I know its binary af and raise question "is that really fun?". Well no per se... but its vital to include other critera of choice except combat prowess. If combat is your only critera you are tunneled to end up with obviously better choices and obviously worse choices according to numbers... or you have to make everything flat and equal. 

[Achilles]

 

Nope, because:

 

1) “damage output” is only one mechanic and

2) this isn’t about what “I want”. The argument was “people will bitch if their favorite class sucks”. Yes, “suck” is subjective. I’m not sure what that has to do with the argument though. You could point out that water is wet at it would be just about as relevant.

But as long as not all classes are even (in all respects) people will bitch about their specific favourite class being crap. The only way to remedy that is to make all classes the same (in whatever categories you wish to pick).

 

And if you did that, I bet you'd have even more people complain about the fact that all classes are the same.

 

At no point will everyone agree that this or that system is perfect.

”In all respects” is an expectation that you’re inventing. No one who plays rogues expects their character to be as good at healing as priests. They do expect that their rogue be as good as roguing as the priests are at priesting. If priests were bad ass and rogues completely suck, they would feel ripped off.

 

Again, this isn’t new or controversial information.

 

And yes, no system is perfect. Which is probably why Josh is on record for saying that he could probably go on tuning indefinitely.

[Wormerine]

About classes being same or different (some worse). That's the design flaw of the environment, if we had world that have you include a "weak" class in your party because at some point this weak class is vital to get through some scripted encounters or you name it then it would be acceptable but as it stands and from what I've seen from beta videos and fights its kinda flat in that regard. PoE2 imo should've expanded on optional content like endless paths in PoE1 and this content should promote certain classes via mechanics of it or RP elements, like I dunno some traps that require some rogue specific talent for traps or mage tower that have some puzzles that only mage can solve. 

 

That’s a horrible, horrible idea, unless you design a completely different RPG, were combat is one of many possible paths not one of the main things you will be doing. Every class should be useful in combat, but not every class should contribute to combat in the same way.

 

You can have different classes excel at different things, all be useful in combat. The idea that high DPS is the best way to go and all classes are only valuable if they go high DPS is just inaccurate. Class which can move freely around a battlefield and disable enemies via interrupt, stun, crowdcontrol, lowering defences etc. is useful in a team setting. Classes which can buff, absorb damage, move enemies around is a useful class.

 

If someone likes their team to put out as much damage as possible and power through this way - it’s fine. Problem is though, that in PvE game it’s difficult to talk about balance, as AI is easy to exploit. I doubt glass cannon builds would survive in PvP mode without heavy support. Just finished a run with ascendant/helwalker which can be very easily shut down. If enemy wouldnt take my paladin bait he would be dead within seconds.

[Mannock]

”In all respects” is an expectation that you’re inventing. No one who plays rogues expects their character to be as good at healing as priests.

I didn't invent anything. It was you who brought up the example of the monk player complaining his build sucked compared to the wizard player.

[Achilles]

 

”In all respects” is an expectation that you’re inventing. No one who plays rogues expects their character to be as good at healing as priests.

I didn't invent anything. It was you who brought up the example of the monk player complaining his build sucked compared to the wizard player.

Indeed I did, but nowhere did I say “in all respects”. Such a condition isn’t necessary for my argument to be valid. You are the one who is introducing it and it’s a strawman.

[Mannock]

Indeed I did, but nowhere did I say “in all respects”. Such a condition isn’t necessary for my argument to be valid. You are the one who is introducing it and it’s a strawman.

 

What is your point then? You've said it's not about damage output and it's not about being better than the other class at their specialty (the priest priesting the best, which is kind of obvious). What is the monk player complaining about when he says his monk sucks compared to the wizard?

[Achilles]

 

Indeed I did, but nowhere did I say “in all respects”. Such a condition isn’t necessary for my argument to be valid. You are the one who is introducing it and it’s a strawman.

What is your point then? You've said it's not about damage output and it's not about being better than the other class at their specialty (the priest priesting the best, which is kind of obvious). What is the monk player complaining about when he says his monk sucks compared to the wizard?

“They do expect that their rogue be as good as roguing as the priests are at priesting. If priests were bad ass and rogues completely suck, they would feel ripped off.”

[Mannock]

If priests were bad ass and rogues completely suck, they would feel ripped off.”

How are you able to make that comparison when you are evaluating them by different metrics? What are the scales here?