Is anyone concerned about Multiclass/Single Class Balance?

[rjshae]

Why does it need to be "balanced"? Its a single player game, not dota or overwatch. One good ingame item might throw all the careful balance in the gutter, so what?

 

So that all of the character builds will be viable; you won't end up locking yourself into a non-viable character design. Otherwise, do you design for the lowest common denominator and make the game too easy for everybody else? No, a certain amount of balance is necessary. That being said though, it would be enjoyable to have some non-critical path quests be particularly favorable to certain builds.

[Gregorovitch]

 

I have not played much of the beta because I would prefer to play a finished product but according to some people, Nerd Commando included, the current iteration has rendered the balance between multiclass and single class somewhat broken. If you have any experience and have been following the beta closely, do let me know what you think. Thanks in advance.

 

NerdCommando's video is a little old now.  The game has changed.  Let's wait until the game comes out, or the next beta if there is one, before we start slinging around words like balance.

 

 

 

 

NerdCommando's video was released yesterday.

 

I am also concerned about this. The charge is multi-classes have been nerfed so badly they are no longer viable (well more accurately they no longer compette with single cvlasses) because all the good abilities have been moved to higher tiers leaving only dross available in lower tiers early game. Single class characters get to pick from higher tiers much faster so they are now much more powerfull.

 

A second charge is there is no build variety for many single-class characters. There is only one way to build a fighter for example. Leave CON and RES at 10, put INT to 3 and add the rest evenly to STR, DEX and PER since they all conttribute to multiplying up DPS. Then just take Diciplined Strike and the one or two decent  passives available at lower levels (can't remember which). This outperforms any multi-class variant of a fighter by a a wide margin it seems.

 

A third charge is that generally the skills and abilities are now mostly extremely weak and underwhelming. Those few that are any good become automatic picks thus squeezing variety out of the game. A lot of this is down to the scarcity of zeal points and the underwhelming bang per zeal point from most abilities. Essentialy this means it's best to buy those few long term buff abilities that are actually any good, particularly tyhose that cost one zeal point (such as aforementioned Diciplined Strike for example) and since there are so few of them they just become auto-picks.

 

Anyway my concern is that I was all set to go largely multi-class (except for offensive casters which were prior to this patch stronger as pure single class) and pretty much had my party figured out. Now all that has gone out of the window and we are back to single classes.

 

But where will we be on release? I guess it means we can't start playing until some people have worked it out and posted the verdict. I mean these sort of balance tweaks are no problem really if you only have single classes, you can adjust as the game progresses and you learn more, but the problem here is you have to be right about which is best from the get go, you can't change later without restarting the whole game (which I don't like doing).

 

At least NerdCommando has determined the best weapon by far in the game is the Hunting Bow (lots of damage, more importantly very fast shot rate). Swords etc have been nerfed to oblivion. Spears are the way to go, or dual wield daggers/hatchets it seems.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Gregorovitch

[SonicMage117]

Is anyone concerned about Multi-Class/Single Class balance?

We all are.

 

It was the most criticized topic among beta players so it's no surprise that it has generated alot of concern/worry. The last minute changes certainly aren't helping the community to be any more confident.

[Achilles]

 

Is anyone concerned about Multi-Class/Single Class balance?

I am

FTFY

[dukeisaac]

I'm not too worried about balance at release, I'm more interested in whether certain systems will be fun (per encounter/per rest, weapon proficiency, health/endurance).

 

Balance is iterative and considering the size of the game, it will take time.

 

In any case, the beta has been so far all over the place and it's clear they are giving us old stuff to play with.

[Yosharian]

Ok so I started watching NC's new video.  Things I noticed:

 

1) He frequently mentioned the icons that are being re-used in the skill tree, but surely Obsi will have different icons for each ability ready for release?  Has Josh commented on this?  I would be surprised if the icons released like that.

 

2) When he was comparing the multi-class Fighter/Cipher with the Fighter, he made a big deal of some differences that seemed negligible, and glossed over some differences that seemed important.

 

For example, he pointed out a 1-second duration difference between the two characters' DIsciplined Strikes as if it were a significant advantage for the single-class character.  But it's only one second.  This doesn't add up.  Seems like he had a criticism prepared in his mind that didn't actually match the game statistics.

 

Secondly, he doesn't address the fact that the Fighter/Cipher has an entire spellcasting tree that the Fighter doesn't have.  He didn't even mention it.

 

Thirdly, the Fighter/Cipher has a much bigger damage stat but he just glosses over it as if it's not a big deal.  It seems important to me.

 

3) He criticized the Fighter/Cipher's slower gain of abilities, for example not having Armored Grace while the Fighter has it.  But, he didn't consider that the full game will have a larger level range, and the Fighter/Cipher will gain those abilities eventually, it'll just take longer.  We can't say for sure whether single-class characters are that much stronger than multi-class characters without seeing the end-game abilities that only the single-class character will get access to.  And, to be fair, they could be amazingly strong, which would vindicate NC's comments, but we can't know for sure.

 

I haven't watched it all, don't have the time right now.

 

NC's analysis is usually pretty good so maybe he was just not explaining himself really well here, or maybe I misunderstood something.

[Yosharian]

 

 

I have not played much of the beta because I would prefer to play a finished product but according to some people, Nerd Commando included, the current iteration has rendered the balance between multiclass and single class somewhat broken. If you have any experience and have been following the beta closely, do let me know what you think. Thanks in advance.

 

NerdCommando's video is a little old now.  The game has changed.  Let's wait until the game comes out, or the next beta if there is one, before we start slinging around words like balance.

 

 

 

 

NerdCommando's video was released yesterday.

 

I am also concerned about this. The charge is multi-classes have been nerfed so badly they are no longer viable (well more accurately they no longer compette with single cvlasses) because all the good abilities have been moved to higher tiers leaving only dross available in lower tiers early game. Single class characters get to pick from higher tiers much faster so they are now much more powerfull.

 

A second charge is there is no build variety for many single-class characters. There is only one way to build a fighter for example. Leave CON and RES at 10, put INT to 3 and add the rest evenly to STR, DEX and PER since they all conttribute to multiplying up DPS. Then just take Diciplined Strike and the one or two decent  passives available at lower levels (can't remember which). This outperforms any multi-class variant of a fighter by a a wide margin it seems.

 

A third charge is that generally the skills and abilities are now mostly extremely weak and underwhelming. Those few that are any good become automatic picks thus squeezing variety out of the game. A lot of this is down to the scarcity of zeal points and the underwhelming bang per zeal point from most abilities. Essentialy this means it's best to buy those few long term buff abilities that are actually any good, particularly tyhose that cost one zeal point (such as aforementioned Diciplined Strike for example) and since there are so few of them they just become auto-picks.

 

Anyway my concern is that I was all set to go largely multi-class (except for offensive casters which were prior to this patch stronger as pure single class) and pretty much had my party figured out. Now all that has gone out of the window and we are back to single classes.

 

But where will we be on release? I guess it means we can't start playing until some people have worked it out and posted the verdict. I mean these sort of balance tweaks are no problem really if you only have single classes, you can adjust as the game progresses and you learn more, but the problem here is you have to be right about which is best from the get go, you can't change later without restarting the whole game (which I don't like doing).

 

At least NerdCommando has determined the best weapon by far in the game is the Hunting Bow (lots of damage, more importantly very fast shot rate). Swords etc have been nerfed to oblivion. Spears are the way to go, or dual wield daggers/hatchets it seems.

 

 

> A third charge is that generally the skills and abilities are now mostly extremely weak and underwhelming. Those few that are any good become automatic picks thus squeezing variety out of the game. A lot of this is down to the scarcity of zeal points and the underwhelming bang per zeal point from most abilities. Essentialy this means it's best to buy those few long term buff abilities that are actually any good, particularly tyhose that cost one zeal point (such as aforementioned Diciplined Strike for example) and since there are so few of them they just become auto-picks.

 

This was by far the most negative thing that I saw in the 45 mins or so that I watched.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Yosharian

[JerekKruger]

1) He frequently mentioned the icons that are being re-used in the skill tree, but surely Obsi will have different icons for each ability ready for release?  Has Josh commented on this?  I would be surprised if the icons released like that.

 

I'd be amazed if they don't.

 

NC's analysis is usually pretty good so maybe he was just not explaining himself really well here, or maybe I misunderstood something.

 

His stuff on PoE was not great to be honest. I haven't watched the Deadfire video (and at 2 hours I probably won't) but if your comments are an accurate representation I'd say it's not great either.

Edited April 3, 2018 by JerekKruger

[Achilles]

His stuff on PoE was not great to be honest. I haven't watched the Deadfire video (and at 2 hours I probably won't) but if your comments are an accurate representation I'd say it's not great either.

If only Sensuki we’re here

[JerekKruger]

If only Sensuki we’re here

 

Context?

 

EDIT: I know who Sensuki is, I mean with regard to his relationship to NC?

Edited April 3, 2018 by JerekKruger

[VincentNZ]

Nah not overly, concerned since it is still a singleplayer experience and min-maxing is a highly individual player thing. I knever knew about the Kensai/Mage thing, until the enhanced BGs came out.

 

I mean the design concept of the multi-classes is clear. To give each character an additional route to go after so that you are not so dependent on certain companions. If there had been an option to dual-class Aloth as a priest, there would have been less need to have Durance in the party.

Multi/dual-classes give flexibility for the cost of effectiveness. Naturally there will be awkward choices as well, since some abilities of different classes do not synergize well. I guess a barbarian/chanter is not a very good option.

 

And in the end everything will likely be still viable and playable without much hassle, even on a hard difficulty level, while ingenious people will soon come up with a build to solo everything in the game.

[Achilles]

 

If only Sensuki we’re here

Context?

 

EDIT: I know who Sensuki is, I mean with regard to his relationship to NC?

Sensuki = the original beta nitpicker

[JerekKruger]

Sensuki = the original beta nitpicker

 

Ah okay. I assumed you meant there was some history between the two.

 

Yeah, I remember Sensuki.

[Lucaltuve]

Full disclaimer: I haven't played the Deadfire beta, so no hands-on experience there. 

 

Anyways, using POE1 as a base, I'm having tons of problems understanding people that find Multiclasses underpowered because of "high level abilities". In most cases this doesn't seem influenced by actual experience playing the game, but rather because it "sounds" like they're going to play an inferior character. There's tons of people who've complained about it ever since Josh's explained the outdated version of multiclass so it really seems like a conceptual gripe.

The thing is, in the original game a higher-leveled ability didn't ALWAYS meant more powerful or useful. Not even as a caster. Do Wizards cast all of their highest leveled spells until they run out, followed by the second highest level until they run out of charges, followed by the third highest level etc? They certainly don't. I'd even say the low to mid levels of abilities in Pillars are spoiled for choice and utility, while the highest levels are often not quite as awesome or game-changing. Design-wise this only makes sense as you shouldn't wait until max level for the class' identity to suddenly appear.

 

A multiclass character in a game like Pillars is de facto useful because having more abilities and options is de facto good in the game. With multiclass Rogues can now cast group buffs. Wizards can be party healers. Fighters can have pets at their side. Monks can use chants. You get to play the whole game with one or more character like that. At that point... does it really matter that much that your character doesn't get the Green Dragon Punch of Destiny at max level? Opinions may vary but I honestly don't think it does.

[JerekKruger]

Depends. Take something like Sacred Immolation for example: I'd definitely think twice about multiclassing a Paladin if it meant I couldn't get that. Other classes have similarly very powerful high level spells/abilities, for example the Cipher has Defensive Mindweb which makes your entire party into tanks, Priests have Minor Avatar which allows them to spam their spells ridiculously fast, Fighters have Charge, a true hidden gem, and so on.

 

We'll have to wait and see what power levels 8 and 9 bring, but I wouldn't write them off just like that.

[Lucaltuve]

Yeah, right now it's a waiting game. And as awesome as those abilities were, Ciphers are not the best example because they always felt even more unbalanced than others in the sense that they were often better off with lower level abilities. And as much as I love Minor Avatar (yet always forget to cast it), it's just a cherry on top of a character whose power and utility is defined by his other abilities.

 

Your fighter and paladin examples are way better because I could see them as class-defining (you're totally right, Charge is my favorite fighter ability and it doesn't get enough talk). But even then, that paladin that wouldn't have gotten sacred immolation is casting slicken and confusion and that warrior without charge is buffing the party in a multiclass system. 

[dunehunter]

 

 

I have not played much of the beta because I would prefer to play a finished product but according to some people, Nerd Commando included, the current iteration has rendered the balance between multiclass and single class somewhat broken. If you have any experience and have been following the beta closely, do let me know what you think. Thanks in advance.

NerdCommando's video is a little old now. The game has changed. Let's wait until the game comes out, or the next beta if there is one, before we start slinging around words like balance.

 

 

NerdCommando's video was released yesterday.

 

I am also concerned about this. The charge is multi-classes have been nerfed so badly they are no longer viable (well more accurately they no longer compette with single cvlasses) because all the good abilities have been moved to higher tiers leaving only dross available in lower tiers early game. Single class characters get to pick from higher tiers much faster so they are now much more powerfull.

 

A second charge is there is no build variety for many single-class characters. There is only one way to build a fighter for example. Leave CON and RES at 10, put INT to 3 and add the rest evenly to STR, DEX and PER since they all conttribute to multiplying up DPS. Then just take Diciplined Strike and the one or two decent passives available at lower levels (can't remember which). This outperforms any multi-class variant of a fighter by a a wide margin it seems.

 

A third charge is that generally the skills and abilities are now mostly extremely weak and underwhelming. Those few that are any good become automatic picks thus squeezing variety out of the game. A lot of this is down to the scarcity of zeal points and the underwhelming bang per zeal point from most abilities. Essentialy this means it's best to buy those few long term buff abilities that are actually any good, particularly tyhose that cost one zeal point (such as aforementioned Diciplined Strike for example) and since there are so few of them they just become auto-picks.

 

Anyway my concern is that I was all set to go largely multi-class (except for offensive casters which were prior to this patch stronger as pure single class) and pretty much had my party figured out. Now all that has gone out of the window and we are back to single classes.

 

But where will we be on release? I guess it means we can't start playing until some people have worked it out and posted the verdict. I mean these sort of balance tweaks are no problem really if you only have single classes, you can adjust as the game progresses and you learn more, but the problem here is you have to be right about which is best from the get go, you can't change later without restarting the whole game (which I don't like doing).

 

At least NerdCommando has determined the best weapon by far in the game is the Hunting Bow (lots of damage, more importantly very fast shot rate). Swords etc have been nerfed to oblivion. Spears are the way to go, or dual wield daggers/hatchets it seems.

I’m a backer beta player and I’d say 90% of the content you mentioned is wrong and misleading, they don’t move any abilities and multclass is still pretty good.

Edited April 4, 2018 by dunehunter

[Yosharian]

Full disclaimer: I haven't played the Deadfire beta, so no hands-on experience there. 

 

Anyways, using POE1 as a base, I'm having tons of problems understanding people that find Multiclasses underpowered because of "high level abilities". In most cases this doesn't seem influenced by actual experience playing the game, but rather because it "sounds" like they're going to play an inferior character. There's tons of people who've complained about it ever since Josh's explained the outdated version of multiclass so it really seems like a conceptual gripe.

The thing is, in the original game a higher-leveled ability didn't ALWAYS meant more powerful or useful. Not even as a caster. Do Wizards cast all of their highest leveled spells until they run out, followed by the second highest level until they run out of charges, followed by the third highest level etc? They certainly don't. I'd even say the low to mid levels of abilities in Pillars are spoiled for choice and utility, while the highest levels are often not quite as awesome or game-changing. Design-wise this only makes sense as you shouldn't wait until max level for the class' identity to suddenly appear.

 

A multiclass character in a game like Pillars is de facto useful because having more abilities and options is de facto good in the game. With multiclass Rogues can now cast group buffs. Wizards can be party healers. Fighters can have pets at their side. Monks can use chants. You get to play the whole game with one or more character like that. At that point... does it really matter that much that your character doesn't get the Green Dragon Punch of Destiny at max level? Opinions may vary but I honestly don't think it does.

 

Absolutely, if the skill trees are structured in such a way that they match Pillars 1's.  In Pillars 1 the higher level abilities were often outshined by the mid-level or even early level abilities.

 

However, that's not a given.  It may not be the same in Pillars 2.

 

We really can't judge until we are shown the whole game.

 

Another example would be the relative power levels of the base weapons being strongly influenced by the actual weapons we end up getting in the game.  If Weapon Type A is stronger than Weapon Type B, but Weapon Type B ends up getting a omgwtfbbq insanely powerful Soulbound weapon available halfway through the game (e.g. Stormcaller from Pillars 1), then that could strongly influence game balance.

[Yosharian]

 

I’m a back beta tester and I’d say 90% of the content you mentioned is wrong and misleading, they don’t move any abilities and multclass is still pretty good.

 

 

> I’m a back beta tester

 

what does that mean?

[dunehunter]

 

I’m a back beta tester and I’d say 90% of the content you mentioned is wrong and misleading, they don’t move any abilities and multclass is still pretty good.

 

> I’m a back beta tester

 

what does that mean?

I mean we play the backer beta and we all help test the game right? but I just mean I have access to backer beta and I don’t agree the comment he made about multclass a.

[Yosharian]

 

 

I’m a back beta tester and I’d say 90% of the content you mentioned is wrong and misleading, they don’t move any abilities and multclass is still pretty good.

> I’m a back beta tester

 

what does that mean?

I mean we play the backer beta and we all help test the game right? but I just mean I have access to backer beta and I don’t agree the comment he made about multclass a.

 

 

Oh backer.  You wrote 'back'.

[Phyriel]

 

 

I’m a back beta tester and I’d say 90% of the content you mentioned is wrong and misleading, they don’t move any abilities and multclass is still pretty good.

> I’m a back beta tester

 

what does that mean?

I mean we play the backer beta and we all help test the game right? but I just mean I have access to backer beta and I don’t agree the comment he made about multclass a.

 

 

It would be nice if you disagreed by actually facing the opposing arguments with some numbers, facts etc. The guy you disagreed with was just summarizing video by Nerd Commando which was quite in-depth review of the current state of the beta. So what are you precisely disagreeing with? or rather what argument would you bring to the table to face some facts that were shown in the video. I watched that thing in full and he actually show in game, as a fact, the things you disagree with...

[Tattyblue]

I would rather games not spend so much time balancing the uniqueness out of their SINGLE PLAYER games.  I dont want every class or class combination to be equally capable. I want some odd combinations  to shine, its called game theory and its the reason why some people like video games.  Building a combination of classes, races, backgrounds, abilities and the like to be better than average. So if multiclassing is better than single player, everyone has the opportunity to multiclass.

 

In my opinion they should just classify right in the game which classes are "hard mode".  If there are no multiplayer balancing just makes me feel like the developers just dont want the player to beat their game too easily.

 

Why was retaliation cipher nerfed in Pillars 1 nerfed? Who did that hurt other then the developers feelings.

[Achilles]

I would rather games not spend so much time balancing the uniqueness out of their SINGLE PLAYER games. I dont want every class or class combination to be equally capable. I want some odd combinations to shine, its called game theory and its the reason why some people like video games. Building a combination of classes, races, backgrounds, abilities and the like to be better than average. So if multiclassing is better than single player, everyone has the opportunity to multiclass.

 

In my opinion they should just classify right in the game which classes are "hard mode". If there are no multiplayer balancing just makes me feel like the developers just dont want the player to beat their game too easily.

 

Why was retaliation cipher nerfed in Pillars 1 nerfed? Who did that hurt other then the developers feelings.

I think this line of reasoning makes sense in classless RPGs (ala Witcher 3). However as soon as you have classes then you have to worry about balance, regardless of whether or not they are single player. People who always play monks are gonna be pissed if monks suck compared to wizards (or vice versa).

[rheingold]

Single player balance is important. The choice to play a gimped character should be an intentional one, not because your favorite class is weak. Heck, I'm not a power gamer but I'd like the option for my Chosen OneTM to at least feel like he/she has a contribution to make to the party. That has not always been the case in the past. I remember playing Druids in the old ie games, and that was a labor of love.