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Awful tree talents.

talents

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#41
Achilles

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My Pillars experience was this:

1) take or get access to lots of spells
2) only ever use 4 or 5 of them
3) never use potions or scrolls because they do the exact same thing as spells

I don’t think the limited selection is going to sting nearly as much as people think it’s going to. I get that our psychology is such that we really don’t like it when we think things are being taken away, but I actually think this works better

Edited by Achilles, 04 April 2018 - 09:43 AM.

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#42
Gromnir

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Playing casters exclusively, I don't like that I have to choose between a talent or a spell. I wish they were separate.

 

Guess it doesn't really matter as I can just cheat 

is worth noting how powerful is the functional free talents provided by a wizard's grimoire.  am suspecting by mid-late game you will have more spells than you actual typical use, but regardless, thanks to grimoires you need not actual acquire all o' your spells during the level-up process.

 

as an aside, am suspecting grimoire location and content meta-knowledge will quickly be one o' the basic and almost unavoidable "exploits" in the game.   

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#43
SonicMage117

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We as the players should never settle for builds we don't want to play or excuse games for not being able to be who we want to be. Sacrifice of player freedom for sake of lack of balance in talent/skills tree is no difference.

It is a firm belief that any rpg player should be able to play how they want, where they want, when they want. Then again, Pillars games are more restricted and more casual then other rpg's which allow more freedoms to the given player. Divinity: OS2 is a perfect example which allows for players to play how they want, and it's comparable to Pillars games because the same guidelines were applied. It's just a matter of some games doing it better than others is all.

#44
MortyTheGobbo

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My Pillars experience was this:

1) take or get access to lots of spells
2) only ever use 4 or 5 of them
3) never use potions or scrolls because they do the exact same thing as spells

I don’t think the limited selection is going to sting nearly as much as people think it’s going to. I get that our psychology is such that we really don’t like it when we think things are being taken away, but I actually think this works better

 

Having just finished a full PoE run as a druid, I have to agree. I had a few spells that I liked to use because they were strong or just suited my preferred tactics. Everything else was used on a rainy day, or in specific circumstances.

 

I do worry about no-brainer choices in Deadfire, mind you.


Edited by MortyTheGobbo, 04 April 2018 - 12:37 PM.


#45
topologista

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lol pillats


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#46
Darkmind

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Yo. Im not really interested in some forum holy-wars or kinda of that things. I just want one of my favorite games to shine properly. 
I didnt mention at the first message about casters talents. That is even more funny. For example in older DnD games you could always affect of modify your spells, take some other offensive or def talents and choose your spells. In new PoE2 casters dont even have talents. Their perks is 70% are spells from previous game and some bonuses like +10mental#reflex def. That is even more funny than melee and ranged specs. 
You had a great spell ideas in Tyranny with all that runes and spell modifications. Why PoE2 is so badly desined? I dont get it. 


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#47
Darkmind

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It is not even about balance guys. For example clerics runes were incredibliy broken even in the final versions of PoE. Or some cypher spells like reaping knives of mental beams, like battle-wizzards. But you had your own choice what to use and what to not use. Im mostly scared of linearity instead of bad balance.



#48
SonicMage117

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True both are at risk right now, especially when comparing to the first game. If we're being real, this wasn't expected by the player-base/backers but should have been. In any game, the more ambitious it is, the more trouble there is bound to be (this isn't an excuse). I'm really hoping everything doesn't go south quickly after launch.... Everyone has been disagreeing on how the game should be balanced so I really hope that Obsidian plays it smart and instead of listening to the fans, just go with their heart and make the game a better game. That is the only thing that needs to happen here.

#49
Wormerine

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It is a firm belief that any rpg player should be able to play how they want, where they want, when they want. Then again, Pillars games are more restricted and more casual then other rpg's which allow more freedoms to the given player. Divinity: OS2 is a perfect example which allows for players to play how they want, and it's comparable to Pillars games because the same guidelines were applied. It's just a matter of some games doing it better than others is all.

Gameplaywise though, especially combat - I felt Divinity to be quite restrictive. It has a “feeling” of choice, because it’s a classless system. Instead of deciding if you are a ranger, or wizard, or priest type character you decide more as you go on. However, within one archetype I found the choices to be quite limited.

Ambition of PoE1 was creating a class system and still provide a bit of flexibility of a classless system. That came with complaint of classes to being distinct enough. Deadfire made each class more restrictive and trusted in multiclassing to allow for hybrid builds. Complaints came that it is not possible to build hybrids when playing singleclass characters (mostly desiring weapon buffs of fighters). They made a lot of martial passives available to everyone and complaints are that they are not unique, or always desirable, or are underpowered, as if those passives are required to be picked when levelling up.

Madhouse.
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#50
SonicMage117

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True.

It really ruined some things, now Obsidian is scattered so close at launch. For me, it's kinda painful to see, as a backer. I'm praying for a miracle that all will turn out well but given Obsidian's past hiccups upon release, this just might be their messiest one yet (sadly).

I just wanted the best for the game and for Obsidian make it the best that it can be. When I backed the game, I saw a focused vision, a steady goal and a sure plan to get ther. Josh and the team seemd so confident, but I never imagined the road to be so... rocky? Perhaps this is the common shortcomings of developing such games of magnitude in the industry, I don't know but launch date strikes the match a little closer and closer every day. While we twiddle our thumbs and wait for a what could be rushed product... or maybe it will actually be okay.

Things that make you go... "Hmmmm"

#51
dunehunter

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Yo. Im not really interested in some forum holy-wars or kinda of that things. I just want one of my favorite games to shine properly.
I didnt mention at the first message about casters talents. That is even more funny. For example in older DnD games you could always affect of modify your spells, take some other offensive or def talents and choose your spells. In new PoE2 casters dont even have talents. Their perks is 70% are spells from previous game and some bonuses like +10mental#reflex def. That is even more funny than melee and ranged specs.
You had a great spell ideas in Tyranny with all that runes and spell modifications. Why PoE2 is so badly desined? I dont get it.


Good post, spells need more synergy from talents.

#52
Wormerine

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True.

It really ruined some things, now Obsidian is scattered so close at launch. For me, it's kinda painful to see, as a backer. I'm praying for a miracle that all will turn out well but given Obsidian's past hiccups upon release, this just might be their messiest one yet (sadly).

I just wanted the best for the game and for Obsidian make it the best that it can be. When I backed the game, I saw a focused vision, a steady goal and a sure plan to get ther. Josh and the team seemd so confident, but I never imagined the road to be so... rocky? Perhaps this is the common shortcomings of developing such games of magnitude in the industry, I don't know but launch date strikes the match a little closer and closer every day. While we twiddle our thumbs and wait for a what could be rushed product... or maybe it will actually be okay.

Things that make you go... "Hmmmm"

Just to be clear when I say "madhouse" I mean fans, not Obsidian. 

As it is, I feel its fine. Passives aren't too exciting, but I didn't feel like the game needed those. Addition of an extra talent for a single class, means that if something seems essencial to my build I can pick it without too much regret. Overall I enjoy system and combat a lot. If on May 8th performance will be stable, and current bugs with missing keywords will be fixed it should be just fine. At least I have seen much much worse. 
 

When listening to many dev stories some really big changes are often made up to the very release. Its not like passives were rushed - they have been worked on since beta1 feedback. 


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#53
theBalthazar

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Well well well, so I'm not the only one to think that.  : ) ...

 

In fact, one can consider that is OK. A Poor passives tree ability is completely assumed choice.

 

In Divinity OS 1 for example, you have poor choice of active abilities, it is not a real problem !

 

The only difference is that here, talents/active/passives are not particurlarly tactical (Sadly or not, this is not the question). So for me, the pleasure isn't to cast FoD at the good time for example, contrary to OS 1 where you must rapture, soul sap, battering ram etc etc at the good moment (and all are useful !...). Here with pillars saga, this is more like NWN 2 and others game of BUILDING numbers.

 

So, in this situation, number of associations is important. Look at the number of feat in Neverwinter nights 2 and you have your answer. NWN2 is not an example for everything, but honestly, there is a big big choice. Often not balancing at all, casting pre-buff before battle when this is 6s by level is awful, but this game is diversified and fun.

 

Pillars if far better for a great amount of thing, but not his tree. Tyranny for example was interresting but extremely linear and limited (Even if there was perhaps more choice each line than POE2 actually for one class...). And in exchange you can create your spell. THIS idea save literally the game. The feeling of choice is incredible.

 

So, if in POE2, there is "divinity side" (tactical), OK, a poor choice is not very problematic. But honestly, pillars stay pillars. Too much on the D&D model to change his prerogatives (beta 1 to 4 give general same "feeling" than POE1).

 

in this type of game, people must to have fun with the combinations. So :

- Soften Stacking rules.

- Always offer more unique abilities per line. I mean look at line 1 of Fighter. Seriously... ?

 

This gives the impression to the player that he did not choose "forcibly".


Edited by theBalthazar, 05 April 2018 - 09:44 AM.

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#54
MortyTheGobbo

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It is a firm belief that any rpg player should be able to play how they want, where they want, when they want. Then again, Pillars games are more restricted and more casual then other rpg's which allow more freedoms to the given player. Divinity: OS2 is a perfect example which allows for players to play how they want, and it's comparable to Pillars games because the same guidelines were applied. It's just a matter of some games doing it better than others is all.

Gameplaywise though, especially combat - I felt Divinity to be quite restrictive. It has a “feeling” of choice, because it’s a classless system. Instead of deciding if you are a ranger, or wizard, or priest type character you decide more as you go on. However, within one archetype I found the choices to be quite limited.

 

Plus there's some tactics that are just better than others in terms of dealing with the game's difficulty and scaling.



#55
rjshae

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My Pillars experience was this:

1) take or get access to lots of spells
2) only ever use 4 or 5 of them
3) never use potions or scrolls because they do the exact same thing as spells

I don’t think the limited selection is going to sting nearly as much as people think it’s going to. I get that our psychology is such that we really don’t like it when we think things are being taken away, but I actually think this works better

 

The Pareto principle applies here. 80% of the time you'll be mostly happy with the small selection you've taken. The other 20% of the time though, you'll really miss that one spell you can't cast. It makes your character class feel less than optimal.


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#56
Achilles

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My Pillars experience was this:

1) take or get access to lots of spells
2) only ever use 4 or 5 of them
3) never use potions or scrolls because they do the exact same thing as spells

I don’t think the limited selection is going to sting nearly as much as people think it’s going to. I get that our psychology is such that we really don’t like it when we think things are being taken away, but I actually think this works better


The Pareto principle applies here. 80% of the time you'll be mostly happy with the small selection you've taken. The other 20% of the time though, you'll really miss that one spell you can't cast. It makes your character class feel less than optimal.
And if those occasions can’t be rectified via a potion, a scroll, or swapping out to another grimoire, I will be similarly concerned ;)

#57
rjshae

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My Pillars experience was this:

1) take or get access to lots of spells
2) only ever use 4 or 5 of them
3) never use potions or scrolls because they do the exact same thing as spells

I don’t think the limited selection is going to sting nearly as much as people think it’s going to. I get that our psychology is such that we really don’t like it when we think things are being taken away, but I actually think this works better


The Pareto principle applies here. 80% of the time you'll be mostly happy with the small selection you've taken. The other 20% of the time though, you'll really miss that one spell you can't cast. It makes your character class feel less than optimal.
And if those occasions can’t be rectified via a potion, a scroll, or swapping out to another grimoire, I will be similarly concerned ;)

 

Yeah, assuming you have time to swap out a grimoire. I suppose you can reload, but I thought we were trying to avoid that.



#58
Achilles

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My Pillars experience was this:

1) take or get access to lots of spells
2) only ever use 4 or 5 of them
3) never use potions or scrolls because they do the exact same thing as spells

I don’t think the limited selection is going to sting nearly as much as people think it’s going to. I get that our psychology is such that we really don’t like it when we think things are being taken away, but I actually think this works better

The Pareto principle applies here. 80% of the time you'll be mostly happy with the small selection you've taken. The other 20% of the time though, you'll really miss that one spell you can't cast. It makes your character class feel less than optimal.
And if those occasions can’t be rectified via a potion, a scroll, or swapping out to another grimoire, I will be similarly concerned ;)

Yeah, assuming you have time to swap out a grimoire. I suppose you can reload, but I thought we were trying to avoid that.
I haven’t verified, but allegedly wizards can still “hot swap” grimoires that they keep in their quick items. As for potions and scrolls, yeah, it would be nice not to metagame them, but I think at some point we’re expected to look at someone in heavy armor and just kinda know that arrows are a bad idea but shock damage is a good one (for example)

#59
Yosharian

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How much of game development is always this manic, though?

We're just getting a glimpse into development that we don't normally get, because we're backers.
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#60
THCRaven

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How much of game development is always this manic, though?

We're just getting a glimpse into development that we don't normally get, because we're backers.

According to the twitch Q&A the current state of the beta is what we will get and this period is mostly dedicated to bug fixing.







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