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multiclasses feel underwhelming now


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with 2 points at the power level, the multiclasses feel underwhelming since the single classes get more staff quicker.

 

I think multiclasses should get 3 point at power level not 2 to off set the slow progression.

 

3 is not 4, but it's also not 2.

I see the dreams so marvelously sad

 

The creeks of land so solid and encrusted

 

Where wave and tide against the shore is busted

 

While chanting by the moonlit twilight's bed

 

trees (of Twin Elms) could use more of Magran's touch © Durance

 

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Nah I think they are fine. I think multclass should provide more choice but not be more powerful right.

 

So if I wanna play a paladin but don’t wanna pick his support abilities, I can multclass a rogue and put points into DPS ones and etc.

 

I have to say before this beta I seldomly use single class but now I tried a single class chanter and cipher and I’d say they are not too OP, but still doing good compare to multclass ones. Great improvement from the dev team.

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When single-classes had gained one new ability per level in previous beta versions, many complained that they had been much behind multiclasses (who had got an extra one at every third level, that is +33%).

 

Now single-classes receive two at every new power level (50% more), and become suddenly overwhelming?

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I agree with Dunehunter. Single class now is as much desirable as multiclass is.

 

I made two multiclass after the latest patch. A warrior/paladin and a monk/paladin, and I didn't felt the character less powerful to me, just different.

 

Btw you will feel much different when you hit past level 10. That is where you get most of the tier 3 good stuff and start to get the tier 4 good stuff. Then you will feel very different about multiclass.

 

It is almost the same as it was with pillars 1 monk when you got iron wheel (+1 armor per wound). After you got that it was a whole different gameplay, and quality level.

Edited by Soulmojo
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Right. Some combos are still very powerful despite lower Power Level and/or less ability points. Look at cipher/rogue with the stacked damage bonuses of Sneak Attack and (Biting) Soul Whip. Add high MIG and it's still crazy. Some multiclass combos who don't have nice synergies are now weaker than single classes - but that's ok. It can't all be equally good - that would be boring. As multiclass player you have to put some effort into char building. Now the warning during character creation at least makes sense. 

Edited by Boeroer
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I also think it's good where classes are at the moment. Multiclasses are meant to be more experimental, so a little risk in building them is much appreciated and actually contributes to the fun of it.

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The benefit of multi classing is that you get access to a wider spread of abilities to choose from, not that you get more of them to use at a time.

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Aloth massages his temples, shaking his head.

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One way of addressing this might be to slightly accelerate the pace at which multi-class characters get access to abilities of a given power level, but to still cap them at power level 7 access? This would let them use more of their ability choices on interesting mid level abilities while keeping the highest level abilities for single class characters. :)

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I hope multiclass combo can access to classes's ultimate abilities, like Twin Arrow for ranger, Sacred Immolation for paladin, Fury of Heart for Barb, and single class can access to upgraded version of these. Both will be happy in the end.

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so we do agree that the slower progression is irrelevant with 2 points per PL?

 

let's then make singles and multi progress at the same rate while multi will be stuck with the thinner spread dilemma.

 

For me it'd be fair to either same progression thinner spread or slower progression wider spread, not slower progression thinner spread as it's now.

Edited by mrmonocle

I see the dreams so marvelously sad

 

The creeks of land so solid and encrusted

 

Where wave and tide against the shore is busted

 

While chanting by the moonlit twilight's bed

 

trees (of Twin Elms) could use more of Magran's touch © Durance

 

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For me it'd be fair to either same progression thinner spread or slower progression wider spread, not slower progression thinner spread as it's now.

 

Synergy between abilities makes that a bad idea. If anything multiclass characters should progress more slowly, although with power level being the same as ability level I can't see that happening.

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If anything, certain multiclasses are still way OP.

 

2 ability points you miss from levelups you get as the starting abilities of your 2nd class usually. Some base character abilities such as sneak attack are also way more powerful than almost anything you could get with levelups in other classes.

 

Plus you have the benefit of cherrypicking the best stuff from both classes, although in some cases you could be stuck picking from trash abilities due to slower power level gain. Same can happen with a single class that has "bad" power levels in terms of available abilities though.

 

I'm pretty sure multiclasses don't need any buffs.

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I think it makes sense for single and multiclass characters to have the same number of total abilities.

on condition the progression pace is the same.

I see the dreams so marvelously sad

 

The creeks of land so solid and encrusted

 

Where wave and tide against the shore is busted

 

While chanting by the moonlit twilight's bed

 

trees (of Twin Elms) could use more of Magran's touch © Durance

 

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on condition the progression pace is the same.

 

Why? That makes multiclass characters objectively better. Even ignoring synergies they'd have the same number of abilities, the same ability progression but they'd have a bigger pool to pick from.

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I think it makes sense for single and multiclass characters to have the same number of total abilities.

on condition the progression pace is the same.

 

It all depends on whether ability trees are front-loaded or back-loaded.

 

The original intention must have been to compensate the overall slower progress of multiclasses towards higher levels with wider pool and greater number of abilities. But many melee ability trees turned out to be particularly front-loaded, so something needed to be done... Now single-classes gain slightly more ability points.

 

As long as low-level multiclasses can combine strong initial passives from both sides, the current system seems ok to me.

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Hmm... with current system single class characters will gain more abilities total. Number isn’t big (3 extra ability points?), and multiclass benefits from synergies, and more available abilities per encounter.

 

I think it is fine. It feels fine. Let’s see how it will perform in full game first.

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Hmm... with current system single class characters will gain more abilities total. Number isn’t big (3 extra ability points?), and multiclass benefits from synergies, and more available abilities per encounter.

 

I think it is fine. It feels fine. Let’s see how it will perform in full game first.

 

 

Ok, yeah, I was thinking there was parity in total ability slots currently, I hadn't done out the math and realized there was a slight discrepancy.

 

In my head at least, ideally, it'd be "both get same number of abilities; multiclass get a wider pool of abilities to choose from; single class get a deeper pool of abilities to choose from." 

 

As a practical matter in the beta, I did find that because multi-class characters advance slower, but have to pick wider, it's easy to get in a situation in the first few levels where you're having to pick stuff you don't want at all, just because you have to use up the ability picks, but you're advancing slowly through the levels so  you haven't opened up much yet.

 

I think the fix would be to just move a bunch of the open talent picks down a few levels so that people could pick Weapon Style etc. a little earlier. 

 

There doesn't need to be a huge change -- once you get a few levels under your belt and your choices open up, it's a non-issue -- but a little more choice at like levels 2-4 wouldn't hurt.

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Hmm... with current system single class characters will gain more abilities total. Number isn’t big (3 extra ability points?), and multiclass benefits from synergies, and more available abilities per encounter.

 

I think it is fine. It feels fine. Let’s see how it will perform in full game first.

 

Ok, yeah, I was thinking there was parity in total ability slots currently, I hadn't done out the math and realized there was a slight discrepancy.

 

In my head at least, ideally, it'd be "both get same number of abilities; multiclass get a wider pool of abilities to choose from; single class get a deeper pool of abilities to choose from." 

I think it would be absolutely fine to give both the same amounts of talents to spend, though the question is how to distribute them. The discrepancy comes from the amount of powerlevels reached between single and multi. Giving 3 ability points per power level to multi would scew balance much in favour of multiclass. I things those 3 ability points shouldn't make that much of a difference, if it does, they can be added somehow.

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Hmm... with current system single class characters will gain more abilities total. Number isn’t big (3 extra ability points?), and multiclass benefits from synergies, and more available abilities per encounter.

 

I think it is fine. It feels fine. Let’s see how it will perform in full game first.

 

Ok, yeah, I was thinking there was parity in total ability slots currently, I hadn't done out the math and realized there was a slight discrepancy.

 

In my head at least, ideally, it'd be "both get same number of abilities; multiclass get a wider pool of abilities to choose from; single class get a deeper pool of abilities to choose from." 

I think it would be absolutely fine to give both the same amounts of talents to spend, though the question is how to distribute them. The discrepancy comes from the amount of powerlevels reached between single and multi. Giving 3 ability points per power level to multi would scew balance much in favour of multiclass. I things those 3 ability points shouldn't make that much of a difference, if it does, they can be added somehow.

 

 

 

Easy way would be an extra ability pick at 20th, 14th, and 8th level. 

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Single doesn't gain as much.

 

If you have +++ of abilities but that your pool is composed of abilities that make too little difference (+25 disengaging, +15 % stride, +10 willpower, reflex, fortitude, +2 health per level = 40 at the end not crazy, 5 % of avoid attack (= 95 % of attacks works) ), in this case single is not really stronger.

 

So I think Multiclass is far ahead atm.

 

Problem seems to be a lack of choice in the panel for both single and multi.

 

If not we would not ask ourselves the question and single class COULD BE a very good investment. Actually not at all... It slightly better, but largely not enough.

Edited by theBalthazar
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We need to see the full skill trees to see what a multiclass loses out on with power level 8 and 9 and compare that to what is gained via the flexibility and synergy of the multiclass to see if they are good or not.

 

I'm betting that the answer is "It depends" which seems as close to balanced as we will ever get.

 

I definitely don't think as I did earlier in the Beta that multi was always better and that's a good thing.

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I think that single class characters desperately needed this buff. But if the late tier abilities are too powerful, players will be mightily upset that they get the same amount of abilities AND no access to these great high tier abilities as a multiclass character.

The whole point originally was slower progression, power lvl and no access to high tier abilities at all, in exchange for more abilities of a lower tier with 2 classes to pick from, and most importantly, often 2 different resources for those abilities. (And lets be honest, sometimes you have to pick so many abilities of the same low tier, you end up having to select pure trash.)

If single class ends up with more viable abilities, higher power lvl (meaning the same abilities will be more powerful, access to all the higher tier abilities AND the higher tier abilities are insanely powerful... there will be no reason to pick multiclass except that you can.

 

Also, it seems that some of the base scores (deflection in particular) start higher for single class characters now.

I hope multiclassing doesnt end up being fluff and any real min/max will require single classing for late/mid game.

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I hope multiclass combo can access to classes's ultimate abilities, like Twin Arrow for ranger, Sacred Immolation for paladin, Fury of Heart for Barb, and single class can access to upgraded version of these. Both will be happy in the end.

 

Single class would not be happy with that a. A slightly upgraded Heart of Fury would not be stronger than the multiclass benefits a barb would receive from pretty much any combination. 

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