[Beta4] New Passives are Scams

[theBalthazar]

Simple.

 

Fighter Level 9

 

Bull's Will / Snake's Reflexes / Bear's Fortitude / Combat focus / Hold the line.

 

Inner Balthazar : Hum Nothing interresting with Fighter... let's see the druid.

 

 

Druid Level 9

 

Bull's Will / Snake's Reflexes / Bear's Fortitude / Combat focus.

 

Inner Balthazar : ...

 

------------------

 

There is a ton of examples like that, where these new passives doesn't really increase the real panel of choice. Disillusionment...

Edited March 31, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Dr <3]

They are simply the same for every class. What is the problem?

[Breckmoney]

I didn't select the defense abilities often in the first game either. Enough people here wanted them to come back that there must be a market, though. People wanted a panel of generic talents to edge their build in certain directions. I don't see the issue.

 

Combat Focus might end up being a very strong talent so I'm not lumping it in there quite yet.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Breckmoney

[theBalthazar]

They are simply the same for every class. What is the problem? 

 

 

The problem is again the choice possible.

 

You have not 8 choices but 4. And you add hold the line, that everybody take each time I presume : p

 

For single class it is a little improvement, but not crazy. Among 3 martial talents, you will choose generally only one of them.

Edited March 31, 2018 by theBalthazar

[lunattic]

It's true that there is a lot of overlap, but honestly I prefer this over having no choice other than active abilities. Plus there are SOME unique or more rare abilities for the classes.

[theBalthazar]

Plus there are SOME unique or more rare abilities for the classes.

 

 

Like ? : p

[Wormerine]

From what I remember the complain was about lack of generic passives, not request for unique ones (“I want my rogue to use two daggers, why is there no perk for it? What? He can use them and be effective? But I want a perk!”).

 

So that’s what they did. I agree they are not terribly interesting, but so they were in PoE1 too. I am sure some will find a use for a passive +10 boost to defence, but probably not me. But hey, with 2 extra points per power level I will grab some of them, if I know I won’t be using active abilities.

 

As far as unique passives wizards had ones giving a penetration boost to certain type of spells.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Wormerine

[theBalthazar]

I want to clarify what I think :

 

In fact, add new abilities is a thing.

 

But personnally, often, in specific level, I don't know what to take, because there is not really much choice.

 

You speak of POE1. But in POE1, you have complete list, almost directly (there is here and here few talents that unlock at level 6 max) BUT globally you have the full list.

 

SO, THE RISK, of not create totally personalized character is weaker than here.

 

Here, I am in the obligation to take what I would not have taken. I took the least worse. But there is a poor choice. Even with this BB4.

Edited March 31, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

I don't mind the overlap. That way you can now take your favorite ability with class A and still pick another one that you also wanted with class B (that formerly only was pickable with class A).

[theBalthazar]

For active abilities yes. But for passives, few lines have no others "original" choice than a big overlap.

 

Except if you want to pick up hold the line, that is extremely specific.

 

In terms of pure choice for ex-talents new passives abilities :

 

POE1 (you love take this one in example)

+30 choices each time I must choose.

 

POE2

Eight in multiclass ! (good try obsidian) 4-5 choices each time I must choose.

Edited March 31, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Achilles]

I don't mind the overlap. That way you can now take your favorite ability with class A and still pick another one that you also wanted with class B (that formerly only was pickable with class A).

Exactly

[rothamon81]

Havent tried much yet, but in multiclass, some talents are with both classes. Can you take the same one twice?

[theBalthazar]

No. Once you take one talent, He is locked at the other side.

[Boeroer]

They said no (it was possible in beta1 with Bull's Will and so on) - But I didn't try it out. Edit: oh thanks Balthazar. I was too slow.

 

My question is: What happens if you are a Bleak Walker/Animist (FoD keywords: Fire + Acid) and take Scion of Flame with the paladin side (+1 PEN with attacks keyworded with Fire) AND Spirit of Decay with the druid side (+1 PEN with attacks keyworded with Acid)? I didn't try because I have nearly 0 time atm but I would want to know. +2 PEN with FoD in this case? It's passive and should stack...

Edited March 31, 2018 by Boeroer

[Madscientist]

In PoE1 each char could take each generic passive talents and now we have the same. ( generic = not class specific )

I am really happy with the changes to talents and I can definitely live with the fact that most classes get the same passive talents.

 

Whats more importent: Can we finally see the talent tree any time in the game, not just at level up?

[draego]

Im glad they added these passives back. Dont get OP complaint. 

[theBalthazar]

My question is: What happens if you are a Bleak Walker/Animist (FoD keywords: Fire + Acid) and take Scion of Flame with the paladin side (+1 PEN with attacks keyworded with Fire) AND Spirit of Decay with the druid side (+1 PEN with attacks keyworded with Acid)? I didn't try because I have nearly 0 time atm but I would want to know. +2 PEN with FoD in this case? It's passive and should stack... 

 

 

Good question. I have not proceed to a test for that. But if theses damages are calculted in "reported pieces", this +1 doesn't work.

 

Certainly (must be tested) only work if you have pure damage. Pure fire, pure elec, pure decay.

 

So there is a very limited utility if you are not wizard and co.

 

Because it is impossible to divide 1/0.25 (corrosive damage)... OR, surprise, Obsidian is generous ( : p I don't dream personnally) and as soon as you have a source of THIS damage, you gain +1 in this attack overall.

 

Im glad they added these passives back. Dont get OP complaint. 

 

 

Never mind, I am the only one to understand the problem with that visibly. It is not a problem. We will see the final result. But I have never seen a game with so few passives. Or with so few "true choice". For for example, hold the line is not a choice for me. +10 in x or y is not a true choice.

 

Trues choices :

Retribution - Confident aim - Armored grace ETC ETC. A TRUE CONCEPT !^^

 

Original Sin 2 choices :

http://divinityoriginalsin2.wiki.fextralife.com/Talents

 

^^...

Edited March 31, 2018 by theBalthazar

[DexGames]

But what about Classes that get a full line of passive choices, that doesn't make any sense with their Class ?

I.E - Spiritshifters, who gets :

• Single Handed // Two Handed // Dual Wielding // More Sets of Weapons...
• Tell me which Shifter out there is going to pick one of these when they're using Claws /Tusks / Horns & Teeth as "Weapons" ?   

Shifters are going to be in their Shifted Form most of the time OR cast Magic Spells, these passives are effing useless.

 

Edit : I didn't call for Unique Passives, but now I do. Or at least, a bunch of basic passives that actually make somekind of sense lol.

Edited March 31, 2018 by DexGames

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

The expansion of choices is good but I'd like to see more. For example, let people who aren't rangers take "gunner" and "marksman." 

 

I also think a lot of the choices should be lower-level, so multiclass characters can pick them earlier when there aren't as many other choices available.

[theBalthazar]

My ultimate argument :

 

I waiting one Single Fighter different than an other.

 

Because with the actual system, all classes characters, EVEN multiclass, will have the same talents (passives abilities, and active abilities for physical classes).

 

My words. It is an ultimate proof than there is a little problem with this system.

 

FOR EXAMPLE^^ :

 

Level 1, you take ? Knock down. Obvious.

 

Line 2 After that ? Fighters stance + One style.

 

ETC. ETC.

 

You see now ? You are almost forced to pick a logical choice. And quickly, for few lines, there are no "true choices" remains !

 

Only the wizard escape this phenomenon with a lot of active spells.

Edited March 31, 2018 by theBalthazar

[lunattic]

The expansion of choices is good but I'd like to see more. For example, let people who aren't rangers take "gunner" and "marksman." 

 

I also think a lot of the choices should be lower-level, so multiclass characters can pick them earlier when there aren't as many other choices available.

 

The example for rares or unique passives: Retribution, deep faith, dirty fighting, hold the line, ancient memory. There's no immediate overlap between of those in the classes I've seen so far. Of course, I haven't checked monk, barbarian or ranger yet so maybe they'll surprise me. 

 

If your problem is that there is usually only one 'best' choice, then I agree with you. Usually you do only have one universally good choice whereas the rest is bad or very situatutional. But that is a seprate issue from the generic passives being selectable by other classes, which I still highly prefer over them having no passives at all. 

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

The expansion of choices is good but I'd like to see more. For example, let people who aren't rangers take "gunner" and "marksman." 

 

I also think a lot of the choices should be lower-level, so multiclass characters can pick them earlier when there aren't as many other choices available.

 

The example for rares or unique passives: Retribution, deep faith, dirty fighting, hold the line, ancient memory. There's no immediate overlap between of those in the classes I've seen so far. Of course, I haven't checked monk, barbarian or ranger yet so maybe they'll surprise me. 

 

If your problem is that there is usually only one 'best' choice, then I agree with you. Usually you do only have one universally good choice whereas the rest is bad or very situatutional. But that is a seprate issue from the generic passives being selectable by other classes, which I still highly prefer over them having no passives at all. 

 

 

Well, mostly what I'm thinking of is that the various "weapon style" passives were added to a wide range of classes -- ciphers, rogues, etc. can pick two-handed style or whatever -- but the "ranged" talents haven't been, so if you want to make a ranged rogue or a ranged cipher it's inherently less optimal. 

 

The "bull's will" type passives seem mostly a nonissue. 

 

I would suggest moving a lot of the gimpier passives to lower-level choices, so that people have more flexibility picking them.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[dukeisaac]

I think generic passives for every class (similar to POE) is a good addition to Deadfire. Unfortunately, there are too few in my opinion and many that are not generic (gunner, marksman, etc.) should be.

 

It's a good step in the right direction but I'm still not entirely sold on Deadfire's gameplay. To me, POE 3.0 is still superior (obviously, this only considers combat mechanics and not the rest).

[fortuntek]

I too like the addition of more passives. It's really not much different than the generic passives that were available to all classes in PoE1, but I will point out that:

1. Some passives are locked behind certain power levels where they weren't before. I'm okay with this because I like the tiered power structure. And,
2. It is not clear to the player if selecting the same ability under two different classes stacks, or is allowed..?

For example, I noticed that on the same levelup, my Crusader (Devoted/Goldpact Paladin) had the choice of choosing Two Handed Weapon Style, which I wanted because his Devoted weapon choice was Estoc, both under the Fighter and Paladin skill trees. I figured either one would be greyed out or gone once I chose it, or, I could choose it and it would stack, or I could choose it and one would be suppressed (effectively throwing away one of my levelup choices permanently unless reloaded or respecced. Yikes! I can't remember what the result was but I'll come back and update later.

Edit: Huh? Seems it's now showing the ability already selected. Guess either I didn't notice before or it was a bug...

Edited March 31, 2018 by fortuntek

[lunattic]

I think generic passives for every class (similar to POE) is a good addition to Deadfire. Unfortunately, there are too few in my opinion and many that are not generic (gunner, marksman, etc.) should be.

 

It's a good step in the right direction but I'm still not entirely sold on Deadfire's gameplay. To me, POE 3.0 is still superior (obviously, this only considers combat mechanics and not the rest).

 

I do agree that there seems to be a distinct lack of ranged talents. I think the combat as presented in the 4.0 beta is okay though. Sure, it's still really slow compared to pillars 1 but then again, maybe that's not such a bad thing. There's something to be said for not instantly winning (almost all the time) in the first two seconds or losing it just as fast.