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Politics Thread: Edge of Seventeen


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#381
smjjames

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I'm a big proponent of increasing cash flows. I still think UBI unless mandated to maintain a proportional level of purchasing power would end up diluted by inflation and quantitative easing.

 

 

I guess make inflation a function of UBI? That way it moves up and down with inflation. I suppose there could be problems when you get runaway inflation (like Venezuela) or massive deflation, but those are problems in and of themselves.


Edited by smjjames, 20 April 2018 - 06:26 PM.


#382
Sharp_one

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They need to pull themselves by their bootstraps and become machines.


Why the obsession with bootstraps? Stop looking for artificial solutions and get a job. 
 

You do know that what you're describing isn't your skillset becoming obsolete but rather the tools with which to apply it changing, right? That's not exactly the same as being replaced by a machine or being outperformed by a sweatshop at the ass end of the world.


You do know you're not making an argument, just nitpicking? 
 

So my father, 2 or 3 years from retirement, should have had to learn an entirely new skill set when his highly skilled position (what my father did was basically the manual version of Photoshop) was replaced by a computer program most high school dropouts could use?
 
No, he didn't end up on welfare or anything, but expecting people to just learn a new skill set instantly without any assistance when theirs is entirely obsoleted is ridiculous, particularly for younger people who aren't likely to have much in the way of savings they can fall back on to support themselves while learning a new craft.


First of all as I said it didn't happen overnight. Second, 2-3 years from retirement should not be a problem for highly skilled position, I assume he had already plans to cover him on retirement financially as someone at that age should. Third, there were millions of people that had their job digitized and they had to learn new skills, learning doesn't kill you. 
 

It cost aren't as big as they seems from first look, because most of that money comes back to country's coffer via multilevel taxation, which is how we keep our social benefit systems running already. Basic income would have move lots of different benefits under one benefit, removed most of the welfare traps, which keeps people in benefit circle.
 
Biggest obstacles to taking it to use are that there are some optional benefits that are necessary to keep addition to it and that it needs massive starting capital which either needs increase in government debt or taking massive cut from our pension funds. Even though those can be paid back relatively soon after system starts its economic system it is still something that politician like to avoid doing.
 
But by giving chance  I mean testing would it increase economic circulation as low income workers would have more money to spend, which would mean that companies cash flow would increase and that increase for their goods and services could increase number of jobs they can offer, which would decrease our big unemployment population, which would help in economic growth. But our government was not interested any of such experiments so basic income talks will move to next government as current is failing in all their job creation attempts.


If you claim that MOST of the money government gives as welfare comes back as taxes then there lies the root of the problem. Taxes are too high. And even if 70% comes back you still need to fund the remaining 30% elsewhere.

I also like the fairy tail about government giving money to employees means they buy more from employers so the employers employ more people who get more money from government so they buy more from employers etc. and everybody gets richer exponentially  :facepalm: 
 
The problem with 1.(A) buying food for 100$ 2.(B) Sells food to (A) for 100$ 3. (B) pays (A) 100$ for work 4. (A) buying food for 100$ is that only (A) is eating in this scenario.
 
RL doesn't work that way. It works as this (I simplify to one company):
 
Government takes 100.000$ extra from company to cover welfare, the cost of the operation is 20.000$. They give 1000 employees 80$ extra. The company must cover their loss so they increase the price of their 1000 products by 100$ each. Now Employees must buy more expensive product, which gives them net value of -20$. Great job you just made people poorer by giving them money  :thumbsup:
 
Of course in big economy it's easier to hide, because and extra 80$ in hand is more visible than slight increase (1$ here, 0.50$ there, 0.35$ elsewhere) in prices. But in the long run people start to realize their buying power is lower and lower as they are spending more money and get less in return. 
 

I'm a big proponent of increasing cash flows. I still think UBI unless mandated to maintain a proportional level of purchasing power would end up diluted by inflation and quantitative easing.

 
 
I guess make inflation a function of UBI? That way it moves up and down with inflation. I suppose there could be problems when you get runaway inflation (like Venezuela) or massive deflation, but those are problems in and of themselves.


You are confusing the cause with the problem. Your solution goes like this:
1. UBI causes inflation.
2. You increase UBI to cover for inflation.
3. Higher UBI causes higher inflation.
4. You increase UBI to cover for inflation.
Loop.

#383
213374U

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ITT: the economy is simultaneously a non-zero sum game and a zero-sum game, or How to Pull Oneself Up by the Bootstraps.



#384
Guard Dog

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I say we get rid of currency altogether and go back to the barter system. Hey Obsidian, I'll trade you two bushels of carrots and some farm fresh eggs for PoE Deadfire. What do you say?


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#385
KaineParker

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They need to pull themselves by their bootstraps and become machines.


Why the obsession with bootstraps? Stop looking for artificial solutions and get a job.

"Get a job" is an artificial solution, hence the bootstraps jokes. If your job is eliminated that doesn't mean the market ****s out replacements to keep up. Even assuming retraining is a viable option you're going to face more competition for a smaller number of jobs than pre-technoloigcal unemployment, and it is magnified for those who don't have retraining on the table as a viable option. Such a labor surplus created by these factors is going to mean lower real wages and underemployment for workers, and this holds true even when they take the sage advice of "get a job".

#386
213374U

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I say we get rid of currency altogether and go back to the barter system. Hey Obsidian, I'll trade you two bushels of carrots and some farm fresh eggs for PoE Deadfire. What do you say?

 

I get the feeling that you're not being completely serious. They do say that "the love of money is the root of all evil" for a reason, you know?

 

More seriously, you may be on to something. Are you familiar with time banks? JES may not want to trade you a Deadfire key for some farm fresh eggs and a bunch of tomatoes (his loss), but he could be more open to an exchange of services considering that you're an engineer that's good with... uh... engineering stuff.

 

Crazy, perhaps, but less so than crypto, and less vulnerable to a catastrophic market crash & burn, 1600s Netherlands-style...



#387
injurai

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To move where jobs are and to train for what those jobs are, and to take care of all the other logistics of your life while doing so. Requires a fair amount of capital. One of the best things to invest in is people and productivity.



#388
Raithe

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#389
Sharp_one

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"Get a job" is an artificial solution, hence the bootstraps jokes. If your job is eliminated that doesn't mean the market ****s out replacements to keep up. Even assuming retraining is a viable option you're going to face more competition for a smaller number of jobs than pre-technoloigcal unemployment, and it is magnified for those who don't have retraining on the table as a viable option. Such a labor surplus created by these factors is going to mean lower real wages and underemployment for workers, and this holds true even when they take the sage advice of "get a job".


Correct me if I'm wrong but we are here mostly from countries that have a positive ratio of immigrants/emigrants, which means our countries are importing workers, ergo the jobs do exist.
And if there are people who manages to travel to another continent, learn to live in a new culture, learn new language etc. to get a job then please don't BS me with "it's to hard to move to another city, it's to hard to learn new skill, it's to hard to try".
Are there people in completely hopeless situations? Of course there are, but it's a fraction of percent of people claiming they belong on welfare.

#390
Guard Dog

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I say we get rid of currency altogether and go back to the barter system. Hey Obsidian, I'll trade you two bushels of carrots and some farm fresh eggs for PoE Deadfire. What do you say?

 

I get the feeling that you're not being completely serious. They do say that "the love of money is the root of all evil" for a reason, you know?

 

More seriously, you may be on to something. Are you familiar with time banks? JES may not want to trade you a Deadfire key for some farm fresh eggs and a bunch of tomatoes (his loss), but he could be more open to an exchange of services considering that you're an engineer that's good with... uh... engineering stuff.

 

Crazy, perhaps, but less so than crypto, and less vulnerable to a catastrophic market crash & burn, 1600s Netherlands-style...

 

Yeah I actually read an article about that in the WP about that a little while back. Rhode Island is using that system for community service credits. They (the article) did explore the concept as a payment system of sorts for cooperating businesses. It's an interesting concept but I'm not sure it has wheels. 

 

I know a lot of folks have made some nice money on bitcoin but I am waaay too risk-averse in investing to even fool with real currency speculation. To say nothing of something that exists only on the internet.  I'm still remembering the '90s when people were going bust buying into massively overpriced stocks of companies that had no products, assets, and ultimately customers. 

 

But you were right, I was not being serious. As far as currency goes, you know the old saying "worst system in the world. Except for all the others"

 

On another humorous note, Bitcoin explained:

 



#391
Gfted1

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...low income workers would have more money to spend, which would mean that companies cash flow would increase and that increase for their goods and services could increase number of jobs they can offer, which would decrease our big unemployment population, which would help in economic growth. But our government was not interested any of such experiments so basic income talks will move to next government as current is failing in all their job creation attempts.


Here in the US, many low income/migrant workers send their earnings "back home" to their families.

#392
Orogun01

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"Get a job" is an artificial solution, hence the bootstraps jokes. If your job is eliminated that doesn't mean the market ****s out replacements to keep up. Even assuming retraining is a viable option you're going to face more competition for a smaller number of jobs than pre-technoloigcal unemployment, and it is magnified for those who don't have retraining on the table as a viable option. Such a labor surplus created by these factors is going to mean lower real wages and underemployment for workers, and this holds true even when they take the sage advice of "get a job".


Correct me if I'm wrong but we are here mostly from countries that have a positive ratio of immigrants/emigrants, which means our countries are importing workers, ergo the jobs do exist.
And if there are people who manages to travel to another continent, learn to live in a new culture, learn new language etc. to get a job then please don't BS me with "it's to hard to move to another city, it's to hard to learn new skill, it's to hard to try".
Are there people in completely hopeless situations? Of course there are, but it's a fraction of percent of people claiming they belong on welfare.

 

The irony about your post is very layered. When you have massive immigration you get sections of the country with that have a foreign culture; as such immigrants tend to prefer to remain within these places and form families and form the same mentality of "it is too difficult". The other issue is that because immigrants the pay rates go down as you now  have a surplus of labor force concentrated on the area and makes people disposable. I'm literally seeing it first hand at my current job and believe me being selfish and shameless pays off better than being honest. So yeah, I'm totally cool with people defrauding welfare, there are a list of other issues that I feel are more important and they all relate to governments (Fed, State) misusing and stealing funds, AKA where your tax dollars go. Therefore, I'm totally cool with people stealing their money back.



#393
Valsuelm

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Are there people here actually arguing in favor of a 'universal basic income'?

 

Two questions for those people:

 

A) Where does the money come from?

 

B) Can you tell me how money is created?



#394
Orogun01

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...low income workers would have more money to spend, which would mean that companies cash flow would increase and that increase for their goods and services could increase number of jobs they can offer, which would decrease our big unemployment population, which would help in economic growth. But our government was not interested any of such experiments so basic income talks will move to next government as current is failing in all their job creation attempts.


Here in the US, many low income/migrant workers send their earnings "back home" to their families.

 

I have an anecdote that's topical. My first job at a Supermarket, 3 of my coworkers were a family and were doing exactly just that. Not just sending money but also all the costs involved with immigration (which are unreasonable IMO) So all of them had two jobs; during the same day. That meant the only time they saw each other was when they were at the same job or for a short while at home when they were asleep. They had applied for welfare in order to relieve their burden, meaning that they could ditch one of the jobs and have a semblance of normality. They were denied; meanwhile at the registers we would see people that not only lied on their application for welfare but in all likelihood paid someone to give them more money every month. I'm talking people wearing nice clothes and driving nice cars who had disgusting amounts of money on their welfare cards. Meanwhile someone's granny is just getting 250 a month and her social worker is fighting to get her to at least 500.
Welfare is broken and serves no purpose other than to keep black people voting Democrat.



#395
Orogun01

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Are there people here actually arguing in favor of a 'universal basic income'?

 

Two questions for those people:

 

A) Where does the money come from?

 

B) Can you tell me how money is created?

The Central banks and the wrongly named Federal Reserve control our currency at the behest of private investors (The Federal Reserve Cartel) who use the currency to influence global events and gain more wealth and influence.
Before we even get near to arguing the benefits of an universal basic income, our currencies should be back in the hands of public servants who are accountable to the people (ideally). Otherwise generating money from nothing would skyrocket the national debt as every time money is made it needs to be payed back to the Fed.


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#396
213374U

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Are there people here actually arguing in favor of a 'universal basic income'?

 

Two questions for those people:

 

A) Where does the money come from?

 

B) Can you tell me how money is created?

 

 

A) From the state's coffers, evidently

 

B) Money is created primarily by the action of private banks, through their fractional-reserve system... meaning that for the most part, money in circulation doesn't exist outside of balance sheets

 

Personally, I'm undecided on the whole UBI thing, because I'm scared as hell of the potential it has to create a large mass of people wholly dependent on the state for subsistence, which gives anyone in control of the state way more leverage than I'm comfortable with. The way state-provided privileges worked in the Soviet Union illustrates this point well enough.


Edited by 213374U, Yesterday, 06:17 AM.


#397
majestic

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Personally, I'm undecided on the whole UBI thing, because I'm scared as hell of the potential it has to create a large mass of people wholly dependent on the state for subsistence, which gives anyone in control of the state way more leverage than I'm comfortable with. The way state-provided privileges worked in the Soviet Union illustrates this point well enough.

 

Aww, don't be paranoid. If anything the state is going to rent or sell you out to whatever company needs cheap labor and we all know property is better of in private hands, human or otherwise. ;)

 

Or to be a bit more serious, just look at Germany what happens when the state locks you into a subsistence dependency. You'll end up being a cheap labor drone with the theoretical ability to improve your lot, except you're not given any bootstraps and anything resembling one is taken away from you. Both the state and the economy love it.



#398
Valsuelm

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trade-deal.jpg


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#399
Bartimaeus

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that's the worst thing I've ever seen

alternatively: this is the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, maybe ever

Edited by Bartimaeus, Yesterday, 06:39 PM.


#400
Amentep

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As far as statues go, get rid of all of them. But for God's sake start with this one:
 
ph9f2me6shyaon9wndvp.jpg
 
That is just... just...

 

They got a new Lucy in 2016 -

 

lovelylucilleballstatue.jpg

 

Although apparently Scary Lucy was enough of a draw, the park still has her out in a different area.






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