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Politics Thread: Edge of Seventeen


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#21
ShadySands

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Saudi crown prince says Israelis, Palestinians both have 'right to have their own land'

 

Saudi Arabia's young crown prince said in an interview published Monday that Israelis, alongside Palestinians, "have the right to have their own land," seemingly opening the door to the possibility of an eventual normalization of ties with Israel.

 
Mohammed bin Salman, the 32-year-old heir to the Saudi throne, told the Atlantic magazine that any Mideast peace agreement would need to address the fate of Islam's third-holiest site, which is located in Jerusalem, and ensure "the rights of the Palestinian people." Even so, his comments appeared to mark a break with the public posture adopted by most Arab leaders.
 
Two Arab countries, Jordan and Egypt, have peace treaties with Israel, but most Arab countries, including Saudi Arabia, do not recognize Israel. However, there have been recent signs of a warming between Israel and the conservative kingdom, whose aging monarch, King Salman, has already handled many leadership responsibilities over to the crown prince.

Edited by ShadySands, 02 April 2018 - 05:30 PM.


#22
Orogun01

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Saudi crown prince says Israelis, Palestinians both have 'right to have their own land'

 

Saudi Arabia's young crown prince said in an interview published Monday that Israelis, alongside Palestinians, "have the right to have their own land," seemingly opening the door to the possibility of an eventual normalization of ties with Israel.

 
Mohammed bin Salman, the 32-year-old heir to the Saudi throne, told the Atlantic magazine that any Mideast peace agreement would need to address the fate of Islam's third-holiest site, which is located in Jerusalem, and ensure "the rights of the Palestinian people." Even so, his comments appeared to mark a break with the public posture adopted by most Arab leaders.
 
Two Arab countries, Jordan and Egypt, have peace treaties with Israel, but most Arab countries, including Saudi Arabia, do not recognize Israel. However, there have been recent signs of a warming between Israel and the conservative kingdom, whose aging monarch, King Salman, has already handled many leadership responsibilities over to the crown prince.

 

That prince just keep making waves doesn't he.



#23
injurai

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Property rights, a novel idea I'm glad the US gov defends. (Typically)



#24
Katphood

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No, this is not an April's fool joke.



When K-pop is more effective than nukes...


I think I'll take a few days off.

#25
Guard Dog

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No, this is not an April's fool joke.



When K-pop is more effective than nukes...


I think I'll take a few days off.

I didn't realize he was in SK for this. I thought they came to him.

 

Could you imagine if HE took the opportunity of being there to defect? Now THAT would be funny. You know it sucks in NK if that happened.



#26
Zoraptor

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They did come to him, the concert was in Pyongyang though Kim was not expected to attend. Kim's only left DPRK once as leader and that was last week (to China). The visit was reciprocation for the cheer team the north sent to the Winter Olympics.



#27
Guard Dog

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I must have misunderstood then. I thought I head the news guy say they were in SK. I heard it on CBS overnight on the TV downstairs.



#28
Drowsy Emperor

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Kim played it pretty well. These moves make it a bit more difficult for the US to escalate tensions. South Korea's acceptance of the 'game' also signify a willingness to buck the trend of hostility that Trump and other US administrations turned into a ritual. Since war is truly out of the equation for all but the most rabid Washington hawks, I foresee a gradual defrosting of relations on the NK-SK side, and eventually perhaps even a resolution of sorts between the two countries. 

Kim's comments must be perceived in the context of praise for a 'hostile and different' culture (from the POV of official propaganda on both sides). In that sense, it's not the actual point of discussion that matters, but the act itself. 

 

 As for Saudi Arabia, they're de facto Israel's 'best friend' in the Middle East region on account of several overlapping interests - mostly the Shia push in Lebanon, Syria and Yemen. This is more a recognition of the reality on the ground than an actual policy shift, which has been in force for a while now. This is how you got the alleged (and likely true, based on the enduring ISIS+Rebel pocked on the Israeli-Syria border) situation of ISIS fighters receiving treatment in Israeli hospitals. 

The new prince seems to be preoccupied with changing the appearance of the monarchy, but in reality he's the representative of its conservative power base, so expecting any changes from him that are not 'fluff' is wishful thinking at best.


Edited by Drowsy Emperor, 03 April 2018 - 05:41 AM.


#29
Zoraptor

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Realistically, Park (?) getting done for corruption ended any practical US prospects of intervention. Her replacement is an order of magnitude more pro peace than she was. Kim's played a weak hand very well, there's a lot of "yeah but, his people are poor and starving and he's isolated!" type comments from politicians but he has to actually care about that enough for it to have an effect, and he doesn't. He cares about having sufficient deterrent to stop the US from invading him, and that he has. The crazy man posturing is absolutely calculated- similarly to some of Trump's posturing- to make him seem reasonable, now, once he's got what he wants.



#30
Drowsy Emperor

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One of our reputable journalists and wartime correspondents, who built his reputation up way back in socialist Yugoslavia, was recently (during the NK military parade) extended the courtesy of a much more freeform visit to the country than is usually permitted. Suffice to say, he found most of the usual accusations to be a flat out inventions.

 

Nobody is starving, NK has some very capable industries (given the circumstances) and conditions in the country are nowhere near as miserable as they're made out to be. NK is far from the wealth of SK, but the population is nearly a decade younger than the SK average with a far better birth rate (1.92 vs 1.27), mostly because NK society is much more traditionally Korean (as in traditionalist Asian) than anything 'communist'. It's a functional society, maybe not one many Westerners would like to live in - but that doesn't automatically mean that the North Koreans feel like they're being oppressed and are on the verge of revolution. 

 

If anything, it's SK that's going to feel tremendous pressure to manage its rapidly aging workforce given the resistance of  Asian societies to any sort of immigrant stop-gap solution. It's more likely that living standards will drop there (sans a robotics revolution) rather than NK going belly up.


Edited by Drowsy Emperor, 03 April 2018 - 01:24 PM.


#31
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Wonder how he managed to get such freedom

#32
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http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ornia-1.4603582

Female shooter, that's new

#33
Sarex

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Anyone who thinks NK is anywhere near to what the US (west) have been painting it out to be, has eaten too much propaganda cereal.



#34
Drowsy Emperor

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Wonder how he managed to get such freedom

 

NK had good relations with former Yugoslavia, that continued (for the lack of any real reason for hostility) when Serbia was reconstituted. The guy made, and maintained, a name for himself as a expert on military matters for decades and is tight with state security services, so was likely trusted to 'behave' through those channels. He was, according to my sources, the only foreign journalist accredited to cover the aforementioned military parade in Pyongyang.  I have no doubt the North Koreans kept careful watch on him, but since he was a 'friendly' guest, they weren't as harsh as usual. 


Edited by Drowsy Emperor, 03 April 2018 - 02:30 PM.


#35
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Wonder how he managed to get such freedom


NK had good relations with former Yugoslavia, that continued (for the lack of any real reason for hostility) when Serbia was reconstituted. The guy made, and maintained, a name for himself as a expert on military matters for decades and is tight with state security services, so was likely trusted to 'behave' through those channels. He was, according to my sources, the only foreign journalist accredited to cover the aforementioned military parade in Pyongyang. I have no doubt the North Koreans kept careful watch on him, but since he was a 'friendly' guest, they weren't as harsh as usual.

I see, was just curious why he was treated that way. Reports on NK here seem to just play up on it being under a tight grip rather than being destitute. Or at least in the past 10 years.

#36
Guard Dog

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Some one made an offhand comment to me today and the more I think about it the more brilliant it sounds. We now know there are no aliens at area 51. If there were Trump would have tweeted about it by now!


Edited by Guard Dog, 03 April 2018 - 03:14 PM.


#37
TrueNeutral

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Pretty sure they just don't give that clown any sensitive information.

#38
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Nobody is starving, NK has some very capable industries (given the circumstances) and conditions in the country are nowhere near as miserable as they're made out to be.

 

Some people almost certainly do starve even after the big food shortage they had, though it's certainly massively overstated how many and how often in the western media. Doesn't matter whether you're a friendly journalist or not, you're simply not going to get to see people who are really short of food.

 

It isn't in China's interests for DPRK to be destitute anyway, so it isn't. China (and Russia, to a far lesser extent) simply ignore sanctions when they want to as there are no independent monitors and what would anyone do anyway; so large amounts of oil etc still get through which would make a real difference if they didn't. Mainly though, DPRK is one of those countries which is always as dangerous or pathetic, as competent or incompetent as the current story needs it to be, and no matter how inconsistent its depiction is. If you want to minimise fears it's a starving country with old tech and no usable nukes plus rockets that explode unexpectedly all the time plus a spoilt cretin of a leader; if you want to up the fear it's got a million man army with 10k artillery pieces aimed at Seoul along with chemical and nuclear weapons plus a leader who's totally cray-cray.



#39
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https://www.newyorke...the-middle-east

 

A Saudi Prince’s Quest to Remake the Middle East


Edited by injurai, 03 April 2018 - 05:08 PM.


#40
Zoraptor

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Pretty good article that, though a bit wordy. It would be asking a bit much to outright come out and say that MbS is a hubris riddled incompetent given the depth of influence of Saudi cash, but it nicely lays out how many hand grenades he's pulled the pin on simultaneously. In a way it's not really his fault, if you've never been told that your ideas are crap or thrown everyone whose said it into jail then it's very hard to work out why things aren't going as you intended. Worse, you tend to end up with people lying to you because they don't want to be gulaged.

 

It's funny to see Trump outright gouging the guy as well. Just about anyone else and I'd decry it, but I admit to disliking MbS enough that seeing Trump telling him that he's a very naughty boy and needs to spend more money on american weapons (presumably including patriots which are about as dangerous to Saudis as the Houthi rockets they're fired at, should bite the bullet and buy Russian like the Turks) on live TV complete with props was highly amusing, and now he's hitting him up for cash to keep US troops in Syria as well.


Edited by Zoraptor, 03 April 2018 - 06:37 PM.





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