Josh Sawyer's tweets and teasers, part III

[Fiaryn]

 

From what I get Josh wanted to try new things for Deadfire or even Pillars. Old-school fans and Obsidian head were against it because they wanted the game to be successful. Now that Deadfire is done Josh can work on his take on pnp rpgs and talk about whatever he thinks about crpgs freely.

 

I'm all in for experimentation in rpgs but not for the sake of it. Most games that tried weird stuff (like Undertale or Stick of Truth that Josh refers, for instance) I wouldn't categorizing them as rpgs even, since there is no roleplay involved - just interesting ideas in general. Funny enough, though, as far as roleplay is concerned, I believe Pillars and New Vegas have done the best in the entire crpg history up to now. Pillars is a traditional game, by Sawyer terms.

 

My 2 cents:

 

There is no ultimate definition of role playing game

 

For me, RPGs have usually the following things:

( no specific order, not a complete list, there will be exceptions)

- You have one or more characters in this game, usually they are humanoid.

- There is a main story ( and maybe side stories) and you lead your char through this story.

- Your character(s) get stronger during the game.

- You have stats and equipment.

- You talk to other chars and there is lots of text in general.

- There are quests and you get rewards for doing them.

- There is combat and success in combat depends on your stats, equipment and tactics.

 

By my definition, "classical" RPGs like BG or PoE, JRPGS like Final Fantasy and "weird stuff" like undertale or south park are all Role playing games.

 

And now comes the most importent thing:

I do not care if a computer game is considered a role playing game according to the definition of you, me or anybody else. The most importent game for me is that I enjoy playing the game. Many games that I like have been called RPG by many other people, so it looks like I really like RPGs.

But I like also many games that are definitely not an RPG and there are also tons of bad RPGs I would never play.

 

 

Even this relatively broad definition fails because most would consider Dark Souls an RPG and it doesn't meet a number of those criteria.

 

I think I've almost never seen a list of characteristics for RPGs that actually withstands scrutiny, so it seems to be more of a an arbitrarily decided upon "feel" than an actual designator of useful characteristics.

[Enoch]

It was probably a mistake for me to link any of this at all, here, as it has predictably derailed into yet another pointless "what is an RPG" conversation.  I was mostly interested in conveying the point that the TTRPG will be non-traditional and very different from the Pillars CRPGs.

 

Anyhow, Josh specifically talks about "genre gatekeeping" as a charming feature of the CRPG audience in some of the follow-on tweets that I didn't link above.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Enoch

[The Sharmat]

I'm gonna go against the grain and say defining a roleplaying game by the act of roleplaying is doomed from the start since no digital RPG can truly accommodate roleplaying. When all you have is a handful of preset responses to a player character because the game isn't a sentient AI or can at least pass the Turing test, you're not really roleplaying. Roleplaying of that type happens with tabletop RPGs and nowhere else. All video roleplaying is just writing a bunch of fanfiction in your head and occasionally getting a buzz the one out of 500 times the developer guessed your intention right.

Edited April 25, 2018 by The Sharmat

[draego]

Article interview with Carrie Patel 

[Boeroer]

I was mostly interested in conveying the point that the TTRPG will be non-traditional and very different from the Pillars CRPGs.

That's why I already like it.

 

Eh, I mean not that I don't like PoE. But for example I like that Josh's approach is classless - for starters.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Boeroer

[rjshae]

Oh joy, another "what is a role-playing game?" discussion.

 

All I know is, the more 'choices with consequences' I get to make for the character build and h{er|is}} actions in the game, the closer it feels to a role-playing experience.

[JerekKruger]

That's why I already like it.

Eh, I mean not that I don't like PoE. But for example I like that Josh's approach is classless - for starters.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what he produces. I imagine non-traditional will go beyond classless since classless isn't particularly rare in tabletop role-playing.

[Boeroer]

As long as it's not clueless...  

[Ganrich]

Some people I talk to about games and RPGs are under the impression cRPG means "classic RPG". Arguably a more useful definition, at least for us, since we and probably most people assume you mean video games when you say "RPG".

I've always assumed the "c" in cRPG stood for Computer, but it also carried the connotation of aping pen and paper Role Playing. At least this is how I've perceived it most of my life. This would include the first two fallouts, the infinity engine games, dark lands, Arcanum, ToEE, both Pillars games, the new Shadowrun games, the Divinity games, etc, etc. It really doesnt matter though.

 

As an aside, I'm looking forward to the TTRPG almost as much as Deadfire itself. I love classless systems in both my TT games and my "c"RPGs.

[injurai]

Ya, I always thought it meant "classic" but the ol' grognards have since informed me it means "computer." But I agree about it's classic connotations. The original computer rpgs where translating what was being done in the pnp space. It's mostly the console rpgs that have evolved to a more action combat based systems, where computers where always good for data oriented interactions. Afterall that's why mouse and keyboards where primarily for, so the classical elements stuck around in the computer rpgs space.

[The Sharmat]

You could argue CRPG now refers specifically to the mechanics of a subgenre of RPG so that despite not being PC exclusive a game like the original Dragon Age counts. But you'd probably be lynched for doing so.

[Ganrich]

You could argue CRPG now refers specifically to the mechanics of a subgenre of RPG so that despite not being PC exclusive a game like the original Dragon Age counts. But you'd probably be lynched for doing so.

I agree, to some extent, with DAO being listed among the sub-genre. I definitely dont think the genre HAS to be pc only, but the best examples pf it are pretty exclusive to the platform. Mostly because the Golden Age RPGs like fallout, darklands, BG, NWN, and so on were exclusive.

 

However, Wasteland 2, DOS 1 and 2, PoE 1 and 2, and Shadowrun Returns + Dragonfall all had (or will have) ports to other platforms. I still consider all of these new entries cRPGs even if they all have some short comings compared to the old school games. Even games like the early Ultima games are part of the genre IMHO, and another odd one that I include as a CRPG is the TES games from Morrowind and prior. Oblivion and Skyrim are arguable, but I consider that's when Bethesda started deviating. That isn't to say they are bad games. They are just moving into a different genre of RPG IMHO. I dont like them, but I dont like God of War either and they are good games.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Ganrich

[anameforobsidian]

You could argue CRPG now refers specifically to the mechanics of a subgenre of RPG so that despite not being PC exclusive a game like the original Dragon Age counts. But you'd probably be lynched for doing so.

 

To be fair, Dragon Age had to make significant concessions in the console editions, and the metacritic scores show the difference.

[Frog Man]

There was a sickass chant in that live stream that returned 20% of damage done by the party as healing for 10 seconds. High level abilities looked pretty sweet today.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Frog Man

[The Sharmat]

 

You could argue CRPG now refers specifically to the mechanics of a subgenre of RPG so that despite not being PC exclusive a game like the original Dragon Age counts. But you'd probably be lynched for doing so.

I agree, to some extent, with DAO being listed among the sub-genre. I definitely dont think the genre HAS to be pc only, but the best examples pf it are pretty exclusive to the platform. Mostly because the Golden Age RPGs like fallout, darklands, BG, NWN, and so on were exclusive.

 

However, Wasteland 2, DOS 1 and 2, PoE 1 and 2, and Shadowrun Returns + Dragonfall all had (or will have) ports to other platforms. I still consider all of these new entries cRPGs even if they all have some short comings compared to the old school games. Even games like the early Ultima games are part of the genre IMHO, and another odd one that I include as a CRPG is the TES games from Morrowind and prior. Oblivion and Skyrim are arguable, but I consider that's when Bethesda started deviating. That isn't to say they are bad games. They are just moving into a different genre of RPG IMHO. I dont like them, but I dont like God of War either and they are good games.

 

Yeah the subgenre really works best with a mouse and keyboard so it will always be primarily a PC thing I think.

 

Personally I'd rather play Pillars than any of the Infinity Engine games but apparently i'm weird.

 

@Frog Man Pretty sure that chant is in PoE 1 already. Didn't use a high level chanter?

Edited April 26, 2018 by The Sharmat

[Boeroer]

No, Old Siec was simply a 15% draining chant in PoE. Not healing over time. Don't know if it's a new chant or if Old Siec got renewed (to New Siec, he he he...).

[Lamppost in Winter]

From latest stream: you'll be able to immediately choose to rush to board the enemy ship in ship duels instead of doing it manually. You'll still take damage and crew injuries.

[Voss]

So Skyrim is not a computer roleplaying game? What is your definition of that term then?

Seriously? It isn't. The NPCs and 'story' simply aren't interactive enough. Its an entertaining hack\slash and exploration game, but the RPG elements are light and largely irrelevant. And choice and consequence are kept in the writers' hands, not the player.

 

Its generally true of all of Bethesda's games and New Vegas as well. And most third acts of obsidian games (which have a noticeable 'we ran out of time\money, so sit back and let us tell you how you should feel about this and what your choices really meant')

Edited April 26, 2018 by Voss

[Achilles]

From latest stream: you'll be able to immediately choose to rush to board the enemy ship in ship duels instead of doing it manually. You'll still take damage and crew injuries.

For what it’s worth, that isn’t new information. That’s been known for a while.

[Frog Man]

Actually josh said on steam that ALMOST wasn’t available for launch. He was happy to announce they worked it in.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Frog Man

[snphillips0@gmail.com]

It's been "planned" for a while but yeah, not actually implemented. Happy to hear it got finished.

[Boeroer]

 

So Skyrim is not a computer roleplaying game? What is your definition of that term then?

Seriously? It isn't. The NPCs and 'story' simply aren't interactive enough. Its an entertaining hack\slash and exploration game, but the RPG elements are light and largely irrelevant. And choice and consequence are kept in the writers' hands, not the player.

 

Its generally true of all of Bethesda's games and New Vegas as well. And most third acts of obsidian games (which have a noticeable 'we ran out of time\money, so sit back and let us tell you how you should feel about this and what your choices really meant')

Well it's considered a computer roleplaying game by developers, media and critics. If you personally think it isn't that's fine, but it won't alter the general perception. CRPG is an umbrella term for all kinds of roleplaying games. This includes stuff like Diablo and also Witcher or Skyrim.

 

Of course it's not a "classic" computer roleplaying game. It's like an ego-shooter with roleplaying elements. But nonetheless is is considered a CRPG.

 

Why are we even discussing this in the first place?

[Achilles]

Did the “c” designate “classic” back in the 90’s?

[rjshae]

 

So Skyrim is not a computer roleplaying game? What is your definition of that term then?

Seriously? It isn't. The NPCs and 'story' simply aren't interactive enough. Its an entertaining hack\slash and exploration game, but the RPG elements are light and largely irrelevant. And choice and consequence are kept in the writers' hands, not the player.

 

It is a role-playing game. Yes, addressing your concerns would have enhanced the role-playing aspects. But the game definitely lies on the role-playing spectrum.

[morhilane]

Did the “c” designate “classic” back in the 90’s?

No it meant computer. The term was born from the idea of adapting PnP RPG to the computer, hence computer role playing game. Something can't be a classic before it is released and that's how those games were marketed, as cRPGs.

 

Now I guess you could say it means classic, because the RPG genre evolved in every direction to the point people don't even understand what role playing means anymore, but that's another story.

Edited April 26, 2018 by morhilane