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Why the hell are they dumbing down the game?


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Classless systems are the best systems

I don’t agree I find them boring usually, vanilla.

 

You find the ability to tailor a character your playing to suitably match your play style "vanilla."

 

. . .For some reason I get the feeling it's not a problem with classless systems.

 

Ya I get you, maybe its just because most of the classless system I have experience with is with the Elder Scrolls series.  When I try to make a Paladin in the game, it just seems like a Fighter who uses healing type magic and yes that is basically what a Paladin is in most settings but for some reason it seems bland.  Like the healing spells are not thematic.  The healing spells a wizard uses in the game are the same as the healing spells that a dude in heavy armor uses.  Maybe its the theme of the classes that I miss *shrug*

Edited by Torm51
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Tbh I think people against this are just making excuses for themselves wanting easy mode, they probably don't even realise it themselves are just trying to lie to themselves.

 

Honestly no idea why this company would cater to this, we backed because these are exactly the type of main-stream triple A baby games we were all tired of.

 

Or at least I thought we all were, shocked so many people are defending this system with insanely flimsy arguments which mostly consist of ignoring reality and saying and I quote "it's not really"

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Seriously the **** are they doing? No one complained about this, we complained about the graphics and mostly ****ty companions, if anyone did complain about these things they were few and far between.

 

Btw, the health/endurance system is PISS EASY to understand, if people couldn't understand it then news flash THEY DIDN'T DESERVE TO AND DESERVED TO BE DISADVANTAGED FOR LACK OF INTELLIGENCE, it's an RPG and this one in particular was quite a high brow one, or at least it was.

 

**WHY ARE WE CATERING TO IDIOTS!? THE GAME HAS BEEN BACKED!**

 

I am replaying PoE right now in anticipation of PoED and figured I would actually bother to get on the forums and look up updates for it as I haven't followed development closely on this one.  I was literally just complaining to my SO last night about some of the arbitraryass cheapness of the POE combat system which was the main thing that kept me from enjoying the game as much as the old Infinity Engine games.  I told him that like 60% of the point seemed to be so that certain types could brag about how many character build spreadsheets they had and how many ledgers full of party optimization calculations they had run through.  And that I played BG1 as a 12 year old girl and it was my first ever computer game and I still managed it just fine and that I thought that would be impossible for me to do with PoE at that age.  Etc. Etc.

 

Then I find out today to my pleasant surprise that apparently most of the arbitrary rubbish is being removed in favor of something that doesn't require a Masters degree to achieve baseline competency at and this comedic ragefest topic is at the top.  I got some good laughs as it literally just gives evidence to my point.  Thanks especially for this quote "I actually liked sacrificing what obsidian though my primary stat should be (might) to make my own unique char, which 1 man solo'd Path of the damned btw, and not in that ****ty chicken **** rogue way either." I will definitely be showing him that when I get home.

 

Disclaimer: This is not a disparagement of anybody who like challenging gameplay, tactical combat, building optimizations or whatever.  I like that stuff a lot too or I wouldn't be here.  It's rather a disparagement of people who want these games to be as inaccessible, esoteric, and unfriendly as possible so they can feel superior to everybody else when they beat them.    

 

You can just play on story mode, why should everyone else be screwed to cater to you?

 

There is selectable difficulties in this game.....

 

Jesus, reading all these comments it is just a bunch of idiots complaining about the difficulty of the game, I thought this was meant to be a strong and intelligent community.

 

Then again people said they couldn't UNDERSTAND the health/endurance system *sigh* gonna just go back to some other casual game?

 

THe point is there is hundreds of them and almost no games for people like me, I don't even want hardcore, I want REALISM, the real fact I should need to eat and sleep, that I've not got infinite arcane power like a god from level 1.

 

Seriously, this and the witcher 3 were like the only high-brow games I enjoyed, these guys had the freedom, no share-holders, no bull**** and they have still chosen to cater to idiots.

 

There is totally no hope for this industry if the creative corruption of a new financially secure company (obsidian) sets in as fast as one game.

Edited by alexis13
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I posted something a little less couth but nvm, I will say that this whole thread has basically started off as a very poorly worded accusation on Obsidian, and has since only been extending to its community ("oh, these changes are made by plebs who want their gaems dumbed down" and such PCMR parody bollocks). What is the point to all this whingening exactly? Surely the topic deserves to be locked.

Edited by algroth
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My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/alephg

Currently playing: Fallout 2

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(SonicMage117)

"2.) To balance the experimental systems and functions. Some people may not understand how this works but from a developer perspective, developers will realize that too complex is never good. Balance things to make things easier for players to grasp while introducing new experimental systems ensure for better times from new fans and nit worrying about people saying "It's too hard!" And leaving a bad review for your game."

So catering to idiots for more money, even though the game got 3.3 mill more than what they needed.

 

Don't defend them man, we are funding them so they can make video games for a living, they are living the dream, they could have least have kept the dream pure for more than one game.

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I posted something a little less couth but nvm, I will say that this whole thread has basically started off as a very poorly worded accusation on Obsidian, and has since only been extending to its community ("oh, these changes are made by plebs who want their gaems dumbed down" and such PCMR parody bollocks). What is the point to all this whingening exactly? Surely the topic deserves to be locked.

Why because you disagree with it? Because you want an easy mode game?

 

Why do you keep yelling "lock the thread" and try to shut down my freedom of speech?

 

All your like-bot pals who keep ganging up on me can get outta here, this post wasn't an attack on obsidian, I was far too shocked that obsidian would even do this and thought it must have been a mistake.

 

It was a call to rouse the community to say "eh hey they are actually dumbing down the game....can you believe it?"

 

But to my surprise the community is filled with a bunch of dumb people who couldn't handle the intellectual complexity of the first place, and I'll insult any fool who is this way, because idiocy doesn't deserev to be praised or catered to it's why the world is so ****.

 

**** you.

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Did you ever play a mage? You used to be able to dump resolve down to 3 on a mage and gobble those points up in spell damage and area effect with no consequences whatsoever.

 

Every stat *WASN'T* useful for everybody, because resolve was utterly useless for ranged spell-based characters.

And being able to drive it down to three wasn't useful to you? I am really not seeing the complaint

 

Being "useful" doesn't mean "fun" or "good game design".

 

 

& so ? Might was bad design because you used to dump down Resolve on your Mages ?

EDIT : Nevermind, good news dropped.

 

@DexGames  These people are hopeless man, what ya gonna do =<

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Why do you keep yelling "lock the thread" and try to shut down my freedom of speech?

 

All your like-bot pals who keep ganging up on me can get outta here, [...]

But to my surprise the community is filled with a bunch of dumb people who couldn't handle the intellectual complexity of the first place, and I'll insult any fool who is this way, because idiocy doesn't deserev to be praised or catered to it's why the world is so ****.

 

**** you.

 

I rest my case.

Edited by algroth

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/alephg

Currently playing: Fallout 2

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The negligibility of deflection granted by resolve has already been pointed out by me multiple times and confirmed by another poster.

 

The usefulness of concentration is implied in the above scenario I just described. If my ranged people and spell casters are interrupting the crap out of the people I'm bottlenecking or even better pummeling them with AoE effects, there are no attacks forthcoming for my tanks to need to concentrate against. But those few seconds where they formed a physical barrier were essential to let my ranged people get off those attacks.

 

Melee guys are never going to be as good at Mass interruption as spell casters or ranged people. At most they will be passing fair at interrupting a handful of people. They can be inordinately good at Mage killing I suppose, but that's hardly a high threshold to climb over. So are archers.

Yeah, resolve and constitution suck.

 

Thats why I solo'd the whole game on POTD and the adra dragon (the third person to do it on the forums for months) by maxing out resolve and Con at the start of the game on my wizard.

 

All you idiots who maxed Might, for what? 10% more dmg on double digit damage?

 

I'll let you in on a little secret, if you get 110 deflection pre-expansions, you can't die. 10 deflection ain't negligible.

 

Infact I specifically picked resolve because I thought it would be the best combat stat, had no idea it would help so much in convo's too.

Edited by alexis13
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Tbh I think people against this are just making excuses for themselves wanting easy mode, they probably don't even realise it themselves are just trying to lie to themselves.

 

Look... Sometimes people just don't agree with you about video games and it's not because they're brainwashed or wilfully performing impressive feats of self-delusion. Edited by Yenkaz
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@ alexis, hey I hear you I am in favor of difficulty and wish this game to stay difficult.  I only played one non Triple Crown run and that was my first.  I have played about 2000 hours in this game and all of those except 80 have been on the hardest mode it has to offer.  I too wish the game to continue being a challenge.  Lets hope it stays that way.  

Have gun will travel.

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Ya I get you, maybe its just because most of the classless system I have experience with is with the Elder Scrolls series.  When I try to make a Paladin in the game, it just seems like a Fighter who uses healing type magic and yes that is basically what a Paladin is in most settings but for some reason it seems bland.  Like the healing spells are not thematic.  The healing spells a wizard uses in the game are the same as the healing spells that a dude in heavy armor uses.  Maybe its the theme of the classes that I miss *shrug*

 

We're on the same page now. I can't really name any good examples of a classless system in video games. Maybe Darksouls? New Vegas, almost. I like the concept much more than the execution, which is sort how I feel about RPGs in general. But hey, gotta keep the faith alive somewhow.

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Ya I get you, maybe its just because most of the classless system I have experience with is with the Elder Scrolls series. When I try to make a Paladin in the game, it just seems like a Fighter who uses healing type magic and yes that is basically what a Paladin is in most settings but for some reason it seems bland. Like the healing spells are not thematic. The healing spells a wizard uses in the game are the same as the healing spells that a dude in heavy armor uses. Maybe its the theme of the classes that I miss *shrug*

We're on the same page now. I can't really name any good examples of a classless system in video games. Maybe Darksouls? New Vegas, almost. I like the concept much more than the execution, which is sort how I feel about RPGs in general. But hey, gotta keep the faith alive somewhow.

Tyranny? ;)
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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Ya I get you, maybe its just because most of the classless system I have experience with is with the Elder Scrolls series.  When I try to make a Paladin in the game, it just seems like a Fighter who uses healing type magic and yes that is basically what a Paladin is in most settings but for some reason it seems bland.  Like the healing spells are not thematic.  The healing spells a wizard uses in the game are the same as the healing spells that a dude in heavy armor uses.  Maybe its the theme of the classes that I miss *shrug*

 

We're on the same page now. I can't really name any good examples of a classless system in video games. Maybe Darksouls? New Vegas, almost. I like the concept much more than the execution, which is sort how I feel about RPGs in general. But hey, gotta keep the faith alive somewhow.

 

 

I don't really feel like F:NV opened that many different ways to progress compared to a normal class system, in fact my games have mostly been different due to making different decisions in the game.

 

It's not that I disagree with everything Alexis is saying, I do like the original POE spell/rest system and I think the best solution to many of POEs spells being quite weak is to improve the list, not limit the selection... to an extent. For instance, the priest spell list in POE was simply filled with too much clutter of useless spells that just made the initial playing with clerics a chore to figure out what was useful.

 

That said, the negativity and insults which is aimed at those who disagree with everything or part of what he is saying has been tiring to read for a long time now. Free speech pertains to government actions, not private forums, stop being a jerkass to people and maybe actual discussion will follow.

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It's not that I disagree with everything Alexis is saying, I do like the original POE spell/rest system and I think the best solution to many of POEs spells being quite weak is to improve the list, not limit the selection... to an extent. For instance, the priest spell list in POE was simply filled with too much clutter of useless spells that just made the initial playing with clerics a chore to figure out what was useful.

The second sentence is what happens when you try to do the first.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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It's not that I disagree with everything Alexis is saying, I do like the original POE spell/rest system and I think the best solution to many of POEs spells being quite weak is to improve the list, not limit the selection... to an extent. For instance, the priest spell list in POE was simply filled with too much clutter of useless spells that just made the initial playing with clerics a chore to figure out what was useful.

The second sentence is what happens when you try to do the first.

 

 

Perhaps it's just the system of picking spells for wizards that made me care less about them. There were only 3-4 spells per level I really wanted, so handpicking those didn't bother me too much. Any less and I would argue that variety suffers. I must admit I haven't touched the beta, but I keep hearing about two spells per spell level which seems... disappointing. Can anyone confirm?

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Perhaps it's just the system of picking spells for wizards that made me care less about them. There were only 3-4 spells per level I really wanted, so handpicking those didn't bother me too much. Any less and I would argue that variety suffers. I must admit I haven't touched the beta, but I keep hearing about two spells per spell level which seems... disappointing. Can anyone confirm?

Half-truths all:

 

For wizards, it is true, right now you can pick two spells per spell level to "memorize" when you level up (always in your repertoire). This number will increase to 3, as singleclass characters will be able to pick 2 abilities when reaching new power level, just like multiclass characters can right now. So:

 

wizards get 3 "memorized" spells + extra 2 per spell level depending on Grimoire equipped (up to 5 per spell level). This time around Grimoires can't be edited, so how many extra spells such Grimoire provides depends on if its spells overlap with your memorized ones or if they contain ones a wizard can't cast when a subclass is chosen). There is nothing as of yet indicating that it will be possible to craft customized grimoires.

 

Druids and Priests get one "free" spell per spell level based on their subclass + currently up to 2 (with future change 3) per spell level.

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Perhaps it's just the system of picking spells for wizards that made me care less about them. There were only 3-4 spells per level I really wanted, so handpicking those didn't bother me too much. Any less and I would argue that variety suffers. I must admit I haven't touched the beta, but I keep hearing about two spells per spell level which seems... disappointing. Can anyone confirm?

Half-truths all:

 

For wizards, it is true, right now you can pick two spells per spell level to "memorize" when you level up (always in your repertoire). This number will increase to 3, as singleclass characters will be able to pick 2 abilities when reaching new power level, just like multiclass characters can right now. So:

 

wizards get 3 "memorized" spells + extra 2 per spell level depending on Grimoire equipped (up to 5 per spell level). This time around Grimoires can't be edited, so how many extra spells such Grimoire provides depends on if its spells overlap with your memorized ones or if they contain ones a wizard can't cast when a subclass is chosen). There is nothing as of yet indicating that it will be possible to craft customized grimoires.

 

Druids and Priests get one "free" spell per spell level based on their subclass + currently up to 2 (with future change 3) per spell level.

 

 

So grimoires function more like staffs or other items imbued with a small selection of spells in D&D? I don't see how that is dumbing things down, I never bothered switching grimoires anyway, though I did edit it from time to time.

 

You can still somehow change the spells you've memorized, right?

Edited by Yenkaz
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So grimoires function more like staffs or other items imbued with a small selection of spells in D&D? I don't see how that is dumbing things down, I never bothered switching grimoires anyway, though I did edit it from time to time.

 

You can still somehow change the spells you've memorized, right?

I would say the easiest comparison would be first Pillars, except instead of containing all spells you can cast, they expand what spells you can cast. Just like in PoE1 you can have multiple Girmoires equipped in "quick access" slot. "memorized" spells can be only changed by retraining your character. They are in fact skills you pick when leveling up.

 

I was also about to edit my previous post because I also might have misunderstood your question. All of that before is about repertoire - how many spells you can choose from. However, yes, to balance the change that spells aren't per-rest resource anymore, you are limited to casting two spells per spell level every combat - so you have to decide which ones from the ones you can cast will be the most useful in current engagement. 

 

There is per-rest empower mechanics - its a consumable resource which get restored when resting which you can use once per engagement to:

1) empower a spell - make this spell more powerful, increasing its damage, duration etc.

2) restore half of your per encounter resource - in case of a spellcaster, that means getting an extra spell per spell level to cast, if you feel you could use another one from the same spell level.

Edited by Wormerine
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It's not that I disagree with everything Alexis is saying, I do like the original POE spell/rest system and I think the best solution to many of POEs spells being quite weak is to improve the list, not limit the selection... to an extent. For instance, the priest spell list in POE was simply filled with too much clutter of useless spells that just made the initial playing with clerics a chore to figure out what was useful.

The second sentence is what happens when you try to do the first.

Perhaps it's just the system of picking spells for wizards that made me care less about them. There were only 3-4 spells per level I really wanted, so handpicking those didn't bother me too much. Any less and I would argue that variety suffers. I must admit I haven't touched the beta, but I keep hearing about two spells per spell level which seems... disappointing. Can anyone confirm?

That is true case for the beta. However, I’d argue that it really isn’t a bad thing. Perhaps I’m the minority, but I found myself taking spells that I hardly ever used in Pillars 1; I had a hand a handful that I used all the time, a few that I used occasionally, and the rest that just sat in my grimoire to be used “someday”. The fact that they went to this system makes me think that most players did the same thing.

 

Give me a heavy rotation of a small pool of spells and then let me use scrolls and potions for the rest.

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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(SonicMage117)

"2.) To balance the experimental systems and functions. Some people may not understand how this works but from a developer perspective, developers will realize that too complex is never good. Balance things to make things easier for players to grasp while introducing new experimental systems ensure for better times from new fans and nit worrying about people saying "It's too hard!" And leaving a bad review for your game."

 

So catering to idiots for more money, even though the game got 3.3 mill more than what they needed.

 

Don't defend them man, we are funding them so they can make video games for a living, they are living the dream, they could have least have kept the dream pure for more than one game.

Greetings new member of our gracious cult!

 

Do say, young pup, I admittedly do like your style. Hearken what I must say now...

 

 

 

There is another variable to consider in which you may not enjoy but I shalt attempt to explain anyway to answer your question. You see, if we are being completely honest, most members here are actually casual rpg players. So with their input, one could rightfully and reasonably assume that they have manipulated Obsidian into doing this with the mindset of "It doesn'tmatter if you guys wanted to make a hardcore game, we paid and we want an easier game than Pillars 1. Our money, our say!" Which is, realistically, never a good thing.

 

So, with that explained, I guess it's not so much defending Obsidian but shedding light on which the backers (excluding me of course) are to blame for shaping the game into being more and more different from ithe dev's original vision. If the game gets too dumbed down, it may be because Obsidian realizes that the majority of player base asked for it or... needed it - more likely the second one. Either way, the signs are not good. That is my official response on the matter, however, this is just a humble opinion based on the evidence seen and heard. Take it with a grain of saltiness and not a dose of toxic pepper-spray that you will no doubtly take it for anyway.

 

Curious to see your next response...

https://youtu.be/_WiwOojDTrs

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Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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(SonicMage117)

"2.) To balance the experimental systems and functions. Some people may not understand how this works but from a developer perspective, developers will realize that too complex is never good. Balance things to make things easier for players to grasp while introducing new experimental systems ensure for better times from new fans and nit worrying about people saying "It's too hard!" And leaving a bad review for your game."

 

So catering to idiots for more money, even though the game got 3.3 mill more than what they needed.

 

Don't defend them man, we are funding them so they can make video games for a living, they are living the dream, they could have least have kept the dream pure for more than one game.

Greetings new member of our gracious cult!

 

Do say, young pup, I admittedly do like your style. Hearken what I must say now...

 

 

 

There is another variable to consider in which you may not enjoy but I shalt attempt to explain anyway to answer your question. You see, if we are being completely honest, most members here are actually casual rpg players. So with their input, one could rightfully and reasonably assume that they have manipulated Obsidian into doing this with the mindset of "It doesn'tmatter if you guys wanted to make a hardcore game, we paid and we want an easier game than Pillars 1. Our money, our say!" Which is, realistically, never a good thing.

 

So, with that explained, I guess it's not so much defending Obsidian but shedding light on which the backers (excluding me of course) are to blame for shaping the game into being more and more different from ithe dev's original vision. If the game gets too dumbed down, it may be because Obsidian realizes that the majority of player base asked for it or... needed it - more likely the second one. Either way, the signs are not good. That is my official response on the matter, however, this is just a humble opinion based on the evidence seen and heard. Take it with a grain of saltiness and not a dose of toxic pepper-spray that you will no doubtly take it for anyway.

 

Curious to see your next response...

https://youtu.be/_WiwOojDTrs

+1

Have gun will travel.

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Why are people still getting so worked up over this? It's very simple. If you like the edits use them, if you don't like them don't use them. Someone using/not using the edits does not in anyway effect your playthrough.

If a topic bothers but you isn't breaking any rules you don't have to participate in them. Roll your eyes and move on. Commenting hostilities and snark contributes nothing to the discussion.

Did you just reply to your own post?

Edited by Achilles

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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