Why the hell are they dumbing down the game?

[Gfted1]

You forgot to put "big" or "brass" before "balls".

 

My favorite ball is a football. You?

[Achilles]

You forgot to put "big" or "brass" before "balls".

 

My favorite ball is a football. You?

It was supposed to be “real”, not “really”.

 

Classic “I just lost” move; resort to clown tactics.

[Achilles]

“Spiritual successor” defined.

 

Feargus:

 

"Hi Kickstarters, I'm Feargus Urquart, the Founder of Black Isle Studios and the Founder and CEO of Obsidian Entertainment.

 

We've spent years putting a whole group of people together who love making role playing games and are really the best guys on the planet to do it.

 

We're excited to talk to you today about Project Eternity, which is a whole new fantasy role playing game that we're making here at Obsidian, that has compelling storylines, deep companions, tons of exploration, moral complexity, and fun tactical combat."

 

 

Josh:

 

"I-I think the appeal in...in the Infinity Engine games was really the story, the setting, and also the tactical combat. The sort of classic, locked, camera view, top down...lookin' at your whole party, lookin' at a battlefield...uh, I think there's a really great appeal to that and I think it's a really fun style of game. And that's-that's the sort of thing we wanna capture."

[Gfted1]

Classic “I just lost” move; resort to insults.

FTFY

[Achilles]

 

Classic “I just lost” move; resort to insults.

FTFY

No, calling you a clown would be an insult. Making an observation about behavior is something completely different.

 

What else would you like for me to explain for you today?

[Gfted1]

We can start with; why are you so sad and angry at everything that doesn't agree with your interpretation? We can get into the deeper psychoanalysis later.

[Achilles]

We can start with; why are you so sad and angry at everything that doesn't agree with your interpretation? We can get into the deeper psychoanalysis later.

Funny, it sure seems like you want to do it now...

 

It’s a free marketplace of ideas, man. If people want to come around and say dumb things, that is absolutely their right. Just like it’s my right to point out when the thing said is dumb.

 

I mean, isn’t that more or less what you thought you were going to accomplish just now when you wrote that? Do we get to add “hypocrite” to your growing list of skills?

[Gfted1]

I don't think you understand what "interpretation" means. Look it up. Theres two other poster asking the same questions, yet you choose to lash out like a petulant child? See, I'm just pointing stuff out man.

 

Its ok, you've shot your wad and don't really have anything to add. Ill let you off the hook.

[Achilles]

And I think you are confusing “interpretation” with “expectation”. Many people thought they heard something (interpretation) and then assumed that they were getting what they thought they heard (expectation).

 

The people bitching are upset because their expectations weren’t met. A rational person might go back, examine what was said, sanity check that against their interpretation and see if there was room for others (i.e. “daddy said we would go see the ponies, not that you could have one”).

 

Feargus and Josh were very specific about what they were doing. I’m completely sympathetic to the idea that many people stopped listening after they heard “Infinity Engine”. That doesn’t mean that their accusations that Obsidian violated their expectations hold water though. That’s called “throwing a temper tantrum”.

 

And with that, I think I’m done holding your hand today.

[Knagur]

We can start with; why are you so sad and angry at everything that doesn't agree with your interpretation? We can get into the deeper psychoanalysis later.

Sorry to butt in but is this really how a moderator should address the forumites? 

 

 

(Edit: Added kitten)

Edited March 23, 2018 by Knagur

[Achilles]

 

We can start with; why are you so sad and angry at everything that doesn't agree with your interpretation? We can get into the deeper psychoanalysis later.

Sorry to butt in but is this really how a moderator should address the forumites?

 

 

(Edit: Added kitten)

I’m a big boy. So long as he doesn’t throw his weight around, I don’t think there’s anything objectionable here.

 

My 2 cents

 

EDIT: typo

Edited March 23, 2018 by Achilles

[illathid]

PoE combat already played nothing like the IE games, although it was advertised as a successor to IWD and BG's with regards to combat.

 

However it's endearing to watch the camp of PoE "old-skool" purists vs Deadfire "innovation" proponents.

 

This is ridiculous. I just recently replayed the BG series and PoE and I think the combat gameplay is practically identical. You use the same control scheme, pausing at intervals to issue orders, casts spells, and drink potions. The biggest changes are engagement and the spell templates showing before you cast, but neither of those fundamentally change how you're playing combat.

[Achilles]

 

PoE combat already played nothing like the IE games, although it was advertised as a successor to IWD and BG's with regards to combat.

 

However it's endearing to watch the camp of PoE "old-skool" purists vs Deadfire "innovation" proponents.

This is ridiculous. I just recently replayed the BG series and PoE and I think the combat gameplay is practically identical. You use the same control scheme, pausing at intervals to issue orders, casts spells, and drink potions. The biggest changes are engagement and the spell templates showing before you cast, but neither of those fundamentally change how you're playing combat.

But...but...initiative rolls

[JerekKruger]

I find the concept of a "Spiritual Successor" quite self-explanatory.

 

As someone who doesn't believe in the existence of spirits, I assume it's a successor that doesn't exist

[SonicMage117]

What does "Spiritual Successor" mean anyhow?

 

That doesn't sound like a game-designing term...

You're right, it's not a game-designing term. Authors of novels were using the term far before game devs and movie directors and producers.

 

Realistically, the term "Spiritual Successor" only means exactly how it's displayed,there's no way to justify straying away from or manipulating such a simple easy to understand term. A game/movie/music/book/toyline albumn which captures or continues the very feeling of the project/product which inspired it. There is no plagiarizing in that, but plagiarizing is dependent only on how the consumer looks at the product they buy anyway. Is it not? For example, if a game in the future has a bald man with facial tattoos and a pet hamster, at least one person would undoubtedly claim "That's a total rip-off of Minsc and Boo" while most BG players will not care abd say "Clearly this character was inspired by Minsc and Boo but his story has subtle differences which makes for a completely different character" Who's really the more logical party? You guessed it, the second one.

 

As far as how developer's percieve the term "Spititual Successor", well, let's be real here... Every developer has their own ideal of what the term means. Much like a barber who argues "My inch is different from your inch", it doesn't make the developer/artist right but it's not like we, as the consumers could ever convince them otherwise. Our wallets mean nothing against the pride.

 

It really boils down to what or exactly how much we (as the consumers/players) are willing to accept of how loose a term is accepted. The subjectivity of any one such term could be argued into eternity but shouldn't. It's a bit different from arguing something like "2D sprites are as beautiful as 3D photorealism" because the ideas are set in stone and people cannot argue with such as it's visibly apparent while the term Spiritual Successor is accepted as merely an ideal of the inspiration and staff of which it stems.

 

To end, the term seems to mean something different to game devs than it does to the rest of the world. Why is this? Maybe it's excused by Artistical freedom but again, straying away from the one true meaning as a means to justify "YOUR" outlook on what it is defined as does not make it right. This is no different than someone saying "The sky is pink because I believe it to be" when everyone else in the world sees it as blue. So never trust a game dev who says "Our game will be a spiritual successor..." because nobody knows what that will be exactly until you actually play the game for yourself.

 

This is just my opinion, as always take it as a butterfly stroke and not a bee sting. I just wanted to point out the basics of progressive marketing in the modern industry. Admittedly, I've explained it very well if I do say so myself.

Edited March 23, 2018 by SonicMage117

[Achilles]

Admittedly, I've explained it very well if I do say so myself.

Don’t ever change <3

[Wormerine]

 So never trust a game dev who says "Our game will be a spiritual successor..." because nobody knows what that will be exactly until you actually play the game fir yourself.

The thing is people who do spiritual successor are people who did originals (some of them at least). They know what they were aiming for when they were designing original games, and they can observe what people liked about it. Every kickstarter I can think of, which ended up being any good was able to critically look at the original works, adapt what was good and discart what was bad/dated/impractical. 

 

It's not that someone cannot dislike Obsidian's decisions. But statement that PoE is "nothing like IE games" is just absurd. From world, to story/interaction/gameplay flow design, to character creation, gameplay flow, progression, races, classes... At it's most original it's still "somewhat like IE games".

[SonicMage117]

Agreed. I do get the IE games experience from Pillars myself, at least more than any other game in recent years. My lame wall of text was just about game devs in general.

[Sedrefilos]

PoE combat already played nothing like the IE games

Thank the gods!

[Sedrefilos]

No need to argue what a spiritual successor is. Obsidian specified their definition for what a spiritual successor to IE games is is their kickstarter campaign: real time with pause combat, isometric view, beatiful environments to explore and interactive companions. They delivered in every part.

[Elkor_Alish]

You guys are really amusing sometimes. I love the intricacies and irregularities of the English language, I think it is a beautiful mess. Like how Germanic animals suddenly become French when you cook them. /cows becomes beef, sheep become mutton, pigs become pork et cetera et al/ but usually I just stick to debating the finer points of etymology on reddit with other *ssholes equally committed to such silly skirmishes. I am a bit late to this Westside Story reinactment over Spiritual Successor but if you don't mind indulging me, I would like to kick a couple corpses before we all go our separate ways.

 

It is supposed to be vague, Wormerine was exactly right. It's a concept like the Spirit of the Law, wherein the vital element is elusive and conveyed through language without being constrained by it. It is nebulous because what you are describing isn't specific, it is a feeling. PoE isn't Baldur's Gate, or Icewind Dales, or Neverwinter Nights or Arcanum or (early) Fallout, but it feels related. Not just superficially, but fundamentally. Just in the way that Axis and Allies is the spiritual successor of Risk. Despite their differences they are not two entirely different games. What they are is two variations on a theme, one being an elaboration of the other. To debate which is better is ridiculous because taste is subjective. One cannot objectify the subjective anymore than one may generalize the specific. Just enjoy whichever suits you (unless it is Risk, in which case you're wrong).

 

It's not derivative, it is not pastiche, and it goes well beyond merely homage. It is not unreasonable to call the combat in PoE a spiritual successor to those earlier titles as it is a well intentioned if not always particularly well executed effort, and I imagine that if we didn't all respect that effort we wouldn't be here.

 

And they are still working on it. That in and of itself is an admission they don't feel as though they have it where they want it quite yet. So this wasn't some callous cash grab exploiting nostalgic pangs. It's a passion project, and it may take a couple titles before they get it right. I can't speak for the rest of you, but while there was much to recommend the BG series I find the first NwN far superior. So whether you find this a true spiritual successor or not, and there is some room for discussion, is there any dispute as to whether or not it is trying to be?

 

I think that question, at least, is settled.

[George_Truman]

So how do we smarten up the game? I think they should add difficult math questions and maybe some quicktime events.

[injurai]

You guys are really amusing sometimes. I love the intricacies and irregularities of the English language, I think it is a beautiful mess. Like how Germanic animals suddenly become French when you cook them. /cows becomes beef, sheep become mutton, pigs become pork et cetera et al/ but usually I just stick to debating the finer points of etymology on reddit with other *ssholes equally committed to such silly skirmishes. I am a bit late to this Westside Story reinactment over Spiritual Successor but if you don't mind indulging me, I would like to kick a couple corpses before we all go our separate ways.

 

It is supposed to be vague, Wormerine was exactly right. It's a concept like the Spirit of the Law, wherein the vital element is elusive and conveyed through language without being constrained by it. It is nebulous because what you are describing isn't specific, it is a feeling. PoE isn't Baldur's Gate, or Icewind Dales, or Neverwinter Nights or Arcanum or (early) Fallout, but it feels related. Not just superficially, but fundamentally. Just in the way that Axis and Allies is the spiritual successor of Risk. Despite their differences they are not two entirely different games. What they are is two variations on a theme, one being an elaboration of the other. To debate which is better is ridiculous because taste is subjective. One cannot objectify the subjective anymore than one may generalize the specific. Just enjoy whichever suits you (unless it is Risk, in which case you're wrong).

 

It's not derivative, it is not pastiche, and it goes well beyond merely homage. It is not unreasonable to call the combat in PoE a spiritual successor to those earlier titles as it is a well intentioned if not always particularly well executed effort, and I imagine that if we didn't all respect that effort we wouldn't be here.

 

And they are still working on it. That in and of itself is an admission they don't feel as though they have it where they want it quite yet. So this wasn't some callous cash grab exploiting nostalgic pangs. It's a passion project, and it may take a couple titles before they get it right. I can't speak for the rest of you, but while there was much to recommend the BG series I find the first NwN far superior. So whether you find this a true spiritual successor or not, and there is some room for discussion, is there any dispute as to whether or not it is trying to be?

 

I think that question, at least, is settled.

 

This is the type of poster I'd immigrate to this forum in droves.

[SonicMage117]

You guys are really amusing sometimes. I love the intricacies and irregularities of the English language, I think it is a beautiful mess. Like how Germanic animals suddenly become French when you cook them. /cows becomes beef, sheep become mutton, pigs become pork et cetera et al/ but usually I just stick to debating the finer points of etymology on reddit with other *ssholes equally committed to such silly skirmishes. I am a bit late to this Westside Story reinactment over Spiritual Successor but if you don't mind indulging me, I would like to kick a couple corpses before we all go our separate ways.It is supposed to be vague, Wormerine was exactly right. It's a concept like the Spirit of the Law, wherein the vital element is elusive and conveyed through language without being constrained by it. It is nebulous because what you are describing isn't specific, it is a feeling. PoE isn't Baldur's Gate, or Icewind Dales, or Neverwinter Nights or Arcanum or (early) Fallout, but it feels related. Not just superficially, but fundamentally. Just in the way that Axis and Allies is the spiritual successor of Risk. Despite their differences they are not two entirely different games. What they are is two variations on a theme, one being an elaboration of the other. To debate which is better is ridiculous because taste is subjective. One cannot objectify the subjective anymore than one may generalize the specific. Just enjoy whichever suits you (unless it is Risk, in which case you're wrong).It's not derivative, it is not pastiche, and it goes well beyond merely homage. It is not unreasonable to call the combat in PoE a spiritual successor to those earlier titles as it is a well intentioned if not always particularly well executed effort, and I imagine that if we didn't all respect that effort we wouldn't be here.And they are still working on it. That in and of itself is an admission they don't feel as though they have it where they want it quite yet. So this wasn't some callous cash grab exploiting nostalgic pangs. It's a passion project, and it may take a couple titles before they get it right. I can't speak for the rest of you, but while there was much to recommend the BG series I find the first NwN far superior. So whether you find this a true spiritual successor or not, and there is some room for discussion, is there any dispute as to whether or not it is trying to be?I think that question, at least, is settled.

It's not that simple as some people tend to want to think, just because some people want to believe it, doesn't make it real. Without results, there is nothing.

 

More importantly, just because a developer promises something and delivers it, doesn't mean they were right about what they meant or the term and how they used it. There's always the easy excuse of "Who cares? They accomplished what they said so why does anything else matters?" And yes, the game devs usually do deliver in their promises but that's not the argument here. We're talking about how developers see and use the word Spiritual Successor. It's actually more important that the majority of gamers believe.

 

For me, I may have missed something, you see, I'm not too sure why people are trying to argue that artists have the right to make up a definition for a term which existed long before the industry of their field did. If we're being 100% transparent and honest here, there's no such thing as an artist or game dev being "right" about changing a definition based on their project. It doesn't make sense, even if we like/enjoy those devs or their project more than others.

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm.... Let's see just how much damage I can do here.

 

 

 

In csse anyone is interested, here is what Spiritual

 

- The term "Spiritual Successor" actually means - for future reference:

spiritual successor, sometimes called a spiritual sequel, is a successor to a work of fiction which does not build upon the storyline established by a previous work as do most traditional prequels or sequels, yet features many of the same elements, themes, and styles as its source material, thereby resulting in it being related or similar "in spirit" to its predecessor.

 

 

- One example of a spiritual sequel resulting from legal issues is Dark Souls by From Software, inspired by Demon's Souls by the same studio. The rights for Demon's Souls, an exclusive title for the PlayStation 3, was held by Sony Computer Entertainment, preventing From Software from making a successor on other platforms, leading them to create a new property with similar gameplay mechanics for the Xbox 360 and other platforms.[ Another example is Perfect Dark, developed by Rare as a spiritual sequel to their licensed title GoldenEye 007. Rare had planned to develop a sequel to GoldenEye but lost the license as they were outbid by Electronic Arts. The developers still wanted to complete another spy-based title and developed Perfect Dark with a new story but with similar mechanics to GoldenEye. BioShock is one such example as a spiritual successor to System Shock 2. System Shock 2 was the first title developed by Irrational Games, a studio founded by Ken Levine, and while the game was met with critical acclaim, it was considered a commercial failure. Levine attempted to pitch a sequel to System Shock 2 but their publisher Electronic Arts declined due to poor sales of System Shock 2. After several years and other projects at Irrational, as well as being acquired by a new publisher 2K Games, Levine wanted to develop a game with the free-form narrative of System Shock 2, which ultimately became the game BioShock.

 

-Shadow of the Colossus was considered a spiritual successor to Ico by the lead director of both games Fumito Ueda; Ueda did not want to necessarily make the connection between the games one of a canonical narrative, but that both had similar narrative themes and elements that he wanted players to interpret on their own.

 

-A more recent example of a video game spiritual successor is the 2017 game Yooka-Laylee, which is considered a spiritual successor to the Banjo-Kazooie series. Yooka-Laylee was developed by Playtonic Games, which consists of former employees of Rare; the company that developed the games in the Banjo-Kazooie series.

 

From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_successor

 

 

From a definition standpoint, I feel that Pillars 1 was a spiritual successor to IR/IE games but I can see how some people wouldn't have (they already listed some valid points throughout the thread). Me thinks it's a ridiculous argument but then, I'm here so. Yes, now we are complete. Let freedom ring...

 

As always, this is just ny opinion. Take it as a dot of saltiness and not a cup of hot boiling pepper. My opinion is to be trusted as it's clearly borrowed some mess of text from Wikipedia (whom is written by various forum uses so it's always right).

[Gairnulf]

I just recently replayed the BG series and PoE and I think the combat gameplay is practically identical. You use the same control scheme, pausing at intervals to issue orders, casts spells, and drink potions. The biggest changes are engagement and the spell templates showing before you cast, but neither of those fundamentally change how you're playing combat.

I do not know what it is you have been smoking, but I hope it is legal wherever you are. Cheers!