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Resolved to fix Resolve!


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So far, the idea I liked the most was for Resolve to interact with inspirations and afflictions.  For example, 11-20 Resolve would either increase the benefit and/or duration of inspirations, whereas 1-9 Resolve would increase the penalty and/or duration of afflictions. 

 

I believe such a change would accomplish three objectives.  First, resolve would become useful for both caster and martial classes, because the benefits and penalties would cut across all classes.  Second, it would better tie together the inspiration/affliction system with attributes in my opinion.  Currently, I do not believe new players have much of an introduction to inspirations and afflictions, and how that mechanic interacts with their choice of attributes.  With such a change, the description for Resolve would give advanced warning on afflictions to new players.  Third, I think such a change would allow players to experiment with more attribute set-ups.  For example, someone could mitigate the consequences of low Strength or  Intellect via Resolve.  

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Had Josh said manual empowers will be weakened too?

He mentioned that Empower would be reduced from +10 power_level to +5 power_level. And that there would be a chance when random empower would proc when you empower, and that they would add up.
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So far, the idea I liked the most was for Resolve to interact with inspirations and afflictions.  For example, 11-20 Resolve would either increase the benefit and/or duration of inspirations, whereas 1-9 Resolve would increase the penalty and/or duration of afflictions. 

 

I believe such a change would accomplish three objectives.  First, resolve would become useful for both caster and martial classes, because the benefits and penalties would cut across all classes.  Second, it would better tie together the inspiration/affliction system with attributes in my opinion.  Currently, I do not believe new players have much of an introduction to inspirations and afflictions, and how that mechanic interacts with their choice of attributes.  With such a change, the description for Resolve would give advanced warning on afflictions to new players.  Third, I think such a change would allow players to experiment with more attribute set-ups.  For example, someone could mitigate the consequences of low Strength or  Intellect via Resolve.  

I like this in theory as it seems the most fitting for Resolve in a RPing sense, but I'm not sure it would work out in the end. Practically speaking affecting the bonus/malus of Inspirations/Afflictions appears problematic. How do you scale an Attribute to effect a +/-5 in X Attribute effect with an single point increment that scales from 3-20? You can't scale it one to one and while you could scale every other or more points that would make in between points in Resolve feel wasted, even if it also affected duration.

 

Affecting the duration is easy and seems most practical/reasonable, but the issue there is Intelligence already provides a +5% bonus to Duration. So that just leaves decreasing Affliction duration, which isn't all that bad, but is it enough. Unless you take away the Duration bonus from Intelligence and apply it Resolve, but would that then leave Intelligence wanting and possibly lead to some classes being spread thin across too many Attributes.

 

I'm still in favor tying Resolve to Injuries and altering that system to be more frequent and varied, as to me it is currently lacking the proper depth or nuance needed to actually be an interesting mechanic in the game and having Resolve influence that would be a benefit to all classes and shouldn't spread any one thin or rob other Attributes of value. 

 

Edit: Nevermind, looks like Decreasing Affliction Duration is a pain in the ass too, per Josh:

 

No, I didn’t miss or misunderstand it.  I think it has more problems than people are considering.  It’s overlapping into the space governed by defenses themselves and doesn’t scale well due to it being a percentage reduction that needs 30 points of “growth” on the positive (i.e. above 10) scale.  
 
Intellect can continue to scale its duration bonus up in 5% chunks because even after it hits 30 (20 points over 10, +100%) it can always increase more.  If Resolve were a percentage reduction, it would need to increment by 3% per point to avoid topping out before 40.  At 5% per point, you would hit 100% reduction at 30 and you’ve run out of runway.
 
5% per point is potent, but almost everything connected to attributes in Pillars is symmetrical, so what works on party members would also work on enemies.  Would you want to fight enemies who spike a basic tier 1 Resolve Inspiration and chop (an additional) 25% off all incoming effect durations?  If the enemy started with a 15 Resolve, it would cut all incoming effect durations in half.  Worse, if the enemy started with a 20 Resolve, the easily-attainable 25 would cut them by 75%.  A 10s Paralyze becomes a 2.5s Paralyze.
 
Is 3% reduction per point enough?  At 15 you’d have 15% reduction.  At 20, 30% reduction.  At 30, 60% reduction.  Maxed out at 40, 90% reduction.  On the lower end, a 5 Resolve would increase hostile durations by 15%.
 
Is 2% reduction per point enough?  At 15, 10%.  At 20, 20%.  At 30, 40%.  At 40, 60%.  A 5 Resolve would increase hostile durations by 10%.
 
Whatever the scale is, it would naturally place a heavier emphasis on Intellect (because you are inherently countering additional reduction) and require balancing base hostile durations (only) around the reality that hostile effect durations (only) are adjusted both by the attack result and by Resolve. 
Edited by Enduin
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What I disagree with is the notion that just because our PCs have this that the enemies will, by default, have this as well. I think the only argument that _could_ be made for is other kith, but doesn't _have_to. I'd like to think my hero is special in at least SOME way, not just like any other kith who happened to find some shiny gear along the way.

 

Joe

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Yeah I'll give the new proposal a go if it gets implemented but my preferred system would be that Resolve gives you a chance to earn new empower points that you can then use as you choose during the fight. You'd have to change the way empowers refresh your spells but that'd be doable.

This is a really good idea. There could be a charge mechanic where you need to build up enough charge to earn a free empower during the fight. I like this idea a lot!

It allows for a nice linear progression where every point of resolve gives X% additional charge build up. Also it solves another problem. Which is all classes except monk, cipher and chanter being sort of top heavy where you use up all of your spells and abilities early and are left with just auto attack in longer fights.

Edited by OlleDenStore
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What I disagree with is the notion that just because our PCs have this that the enemies will, by default, have this as well. I think the only argument that _could_ be made for is other kith, but doesn't _have_to. I'd like to think my hero is special in at least SOME way, not just like any other kith who happened to find some shiny gear along the way.

 

Joe

Strongly disagree. There is a ruleset. game should follow its own rules.

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Did empower really need a nerf like that? 

am not sure 'bout "need," but when you recognize dragons and ogre matrons and similar foes is gonna now be getting empowers too, am willing to consider the desirability o' such a nerf.  our helwalker builds, in particular, is gonna be facing any number o' potential insta death moments when fighting dragons who happen to get lucky with multiple empowers at +5 power levels, much less +10.  

 

as an aside, am more favoring enoch suggestion o' a random refund o' empower as such avoids the possibility o' ineffectual empowers, particular for builds which rely heavily on spells or abilities which marginalize the impact o' empowers. am knowing some folks horde empowers as they did potions and food in poe, but am personal getting much use from empowers.  more we play deadfire beta, the more am using empowers free.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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So far, the idea I liked the most was for Resolve to interact with inspirations and afflictions.  For example, 11-20 Resolve would either increase the benefit and/or duration of inspirations, whereas 1-9 Resolve would increase the penalty and/or duration of afflictions. 

 

I believe such a change would accomplish three objectives.  First, resolve would become useful for both caster and martial classes, because the benefits and penalties would cut across all classes.  Second, it would better tie together the inspiration/affliction system with attributes in my opinion.  Currently, I do not believe new players have much of an introduction to inspirations and afflictions, and how that mechanic interacts with their choice of attributes.  With such a change, the description for Resolve would give advanced warning on afflictions to new players.  Third, I think such a change would allow players to experiment with more attribute set-ups.  For example, someone could mitigate the consequences of low Strength or  Intellect via Resolve.  

I like this in theory as it seems the most fitting for Resolve in a RPing sense, but I'm not sure it would work out in the end. Practically speaking affecting the bonus/malus of Inspirations/Afflictions appears problematic. How do you scale an Attribute to effect a +/-5 in X Attribute effect with an single point increment that scales from 3-20? You can't scale it one to one and while you could scale every other or more points that would make in between points in Resolve feel wasted, even if it also affected duration.

 

Affecting the duration is easy and seems most practical/reasonable, but the issue there is Intelligence already provides a +5% bonus to Duration. So that just leaves decreasing Affliction duration, which isn't all that bad, but is it enough. Unless you take away the Duration bonus from Intelligence and apply it Resolve, but would that then leave Intelligence wanting and possibly lead to some classes being spread thin across too many Attributes.

 

I'm still in favor tying Resolve to Injuries and altering that system to be more frequent and varied, as to me it is currently lacking the proper depth or nuance needed to actually be an interesting mechanic in the game and having Resolve influence that would be a benefit to all classes and shouldn't spread any one thin or rob other Attributes of value. 

 

Edit: Nevermind, looks like Decreasing Affliction Duration is a pain in the ass too, per Josh:

 

No, I didn’t miss or misunderstand it.  I think it has more problems than people are considering.  It’s overlapping into the space governed by defenses themselves and doesn’t scale well due to it being a percentage reduction that needs 30 points of “growth” on the positive (i.e. above 10) scale.  
 
Intellect can continue to scale its duration bonus up in 5% chunks because even after it hits 30 (20 points over 10, +100%) it can always increase more.  If Resolve were a percentage reduction, it would need to increment by 3% per point to avoid topping out before 40.  At 5% per point, you would hit 100% reduction at 30 and you’ve run out of runway.
 
5% per point is potent, but almost everything connected to attributes in Pillars is symmetrical, so what works on party members would also work on enemies.  Would you want to fight enemies who spike a basic tier 1 Resolve Inspiration and chop (an additional) 25% off all incoming effect durations?  If the enemy started with a 15 Resolve, it would cut all incoming effect durations in half.  Worse, if the enemy started with a 20 Resolve, the easily-attainable 25 would cut them by 75%.  A 10s Paralyze becomes a 2.5s Paralyze.
 
Is 3% reduction per point enough?  At 15 you’d have 15% reduction.  At 20, 30% reduction.  At 30, 60% reduction.  Maxed out at 40, 90% reduction.  On the lower end, a 5 Resolve would increase hostile durations by 15%.
 
Is 2% reduction per point enough?  At 15, 10%.  At 20, 20%.  At 30, 40%.  At 40, 60%.  A 5 Resolve would increase hostile durations by 10%.
 
Whatever the scale is, it would naturally place a heavier emphasis on Intellect (because you are inherently countering additional reduction) and require balancing base hostile durations (only) around the reality that hostile effect durations (only) are adjusted both by the attack result and by Resolve. 

 

You bring up great points, but I still believe it is a better solution than random empower.  For the point in bold, that sounds like a good reason to bring debuffers to the group.  Similar to the AR/Pen system, enemies already have means to reduce your damage dramatically.  Also, I think empower would face the same issue with scaling or lack thereof.  Specifically, how do you scale the frequency or strength of empower and depower?  Either it occurs often enough to be significant, or it doesn't in my mind.  

 

Ultimately, I just dislike the RNG empower/depower solution.  

Edited by Nixl
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Have finally came up with a suggestion I am satisfied with, both thematically and mechanically.

 

Am am thinking of separating it in two variants:

- v1. Heavy - requires more changes

- v2. Light - requires less changes

 

PUnCJKc.png

 

Resolve has an association for me with being able to strive for longer periods, and at the same time of occasionally making a short but very intensive effort. Empower actually fits nicely in this as it gives us the possibility to regain resources and continue fighting, or make that last battle-deciding push. And it's not something random, it's a willpower effort resultant from inner preparation/build-up overtime.

 

With this system we would be able to build low-res characters that may have great damage/speed but they burn up quickly (run out of resources); and also build high-res characters that will be able to empower more than once per combat, and continue fighting over and over.

 

Resolve is now useful and for ranged casters. And it has attractiveness for both slow-spell-damage oriented ones, and for cc-focused ones as they will be able to empower their crowd-control for greater accuracy and for bypass of enemy inspiration (of same attribute, if any) from the get-go.

 

P.S. The reason behind "-1 outcoming graze threshold" for perception is:

- to buff the dps component of this stat by a tiiny fraction

- and especially to increase the reliability of our per-based-casters (namely debilitators) closer to that of PoE1 levels

Edited by MaxQuest
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You bring up great points, but I still believe it is a better solution than random empower.  For the point in bold, that sounds like a good reason to bring debuffers to the group.  Similar to the AR/Pen system, enemies already have means to reduce your damage dramatically.  Also, I think empower would face the same issue with scaling or lack thereof.  Specifically, how do you scale the frequency or strength of empower and depower?  Either it occurs often enough to be significant, or it doesn't in my mind.  
 

Ultimately, I just dislike the RNG empower/depower solution.  

 

 

Wholeheartedly agree on that.

 

 

I think ultimately it becomes of an issue of implementation for a lot of these suggested mechanics, as the implications they introduce can be complicated and far reaching, which ultimately makes them unrealistic. RES influencing Inspiration/Affliction could work, sounds good, but the time do get it right might be more than they have at the moment and/or the lift to do it right might mean changing up too many other systems which is no good.

 

I think that's the biggest hurdle for my pet approach of expanding the Injury system and linking RES to that. I think it would work, but how much time would it take to actually implement it and balance. Plus there's always the inherent risk of it simply not being fun. I think it would provide a reasonable challenge and require players to think intelligently about how many injuries they'll let accumulate before resting and managing their food/buffs, but does that actually translate into making the game more fun, or are you simply adding extra work for the player.

 

In that respect more passive applications like affecting Inspiration/Affliction or the suggestion to have RES provide a chance for Empower to not drain a usage are less intrusive and don't disturb or change the overall feel of the game too much and can theoretically be implemented more easily.

 

Have finally came up with a suggestion I am satisfied with, both thematically and mechanically.

 

Am am thinking of separating it in two variants:

- v1. Heavy - requires more changes

- v2. Light - requires less changes

 

PUnCJKc.png

 

Resolve has an association for me with being to strive for longer periods, and at the same time of occasionally making a short but very intensive effort. Empower actually fits nicely in this as it gives us the possibility to regain resources and continue fighting, or make that last battle-deciding push. And it's not something random, it's a willpower effort resultant from inner preparation/build-up overtime.

 

With this system we would be able to build low-res characters that may heve great damage/speed but they burn up quickly (run out of resources); and also build high-res characters that will be able to empower more than once per combat, and continue fighting over and over.

 

Resolve is now useful and for ranged casters. And it has attractiveness and for slow-spell-damage oriented ones, and for cc-focused ones as they will be able to empower their crowd-control for greater accuracy and for bypass of enemy inspiration (of same attribute, if any) from the get-go.

 

P.S. The reason behind "-1 outcoming graze threshold" for perception is:

- to buff the dps component of this stat by a tiiny fraction

- and especially to increase the reliability of our per-based-casters (namely debilitators) closer to that of PoE1 levels

I would be perfectly happy with this. Makes Empower more viable and feel like a product of Combat and your character's determination to persevere and continue the fight. Works mechanically and thematically as you say. 

 

Great work, as always.

Edited by Enduin
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Thanks)

Btw, before the edit, you have mentioned expanding the injury system and linking RES to that.

I've been thinking and about this too) But mostly as an extra effect.

 

The fact that PER already helps detecting traps which are partially linked to the resultant injuries, brought an idea that actually every single attribute can help vs them, but each in different ways. Here are a few quick sketches:

 

KF91GWQ.png

 

P.S. And since this is minor, it doesn't face same time constraints as it can be added later, if something like that is needed and the idea catches up.

Edited by MaxQuest
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With that suggestion, do you think there should be per rest empowers, as there currently are, as well? I feel like rest spamming might negate the effectiveness of resolve if there were.

 

I like the idea under the condition that the ai (enemies and programmable companion ai) would learn to use empowers too. Without ai implementation debuffing enemy resolve wouldn't have any effect and people who like to rely on companion ai wouldn't get the bonus.

In general resolve would be a "good player's" attribute, as you need to use empowers and know how to use them best. All the other attributes affect primarily passive mechanics.

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Thanks)

Btw, before the edit, you have mentioned expanding the injury system and linking RES to that.

I've been thinking and about this too) But mostly as an extra effect.

 

The fact that PER already helps detecting traps which are partially linked to the resultant injuries, brought an idea that actually every single attribute can help vs them, but each in different ways. Here are a few quick sketches:

 

KF91GWQ.png

 

P.S. And since this is minor, it doesn't face same time constraints as it can be added later, if something like that is needed and the idea catches up.

 

I think thematically this makes a lot of sense, my only concern would be is this too complicated. I think you can reach a certain point where Attributes have too many effects, and while quite complimentary, it might become overwhelming both when selecting them and when trying to evaluate their impact for players to juggle the pros and cons in their minds. I think this definitely toes the line between intuitive and too much. That's partly why I've only focused on RES in relation to expanding the Injuries.

 

But I would certainly like to see it in practice to tell for sure. How the UI and info is presented contextually would also be very important, as it is with all things really. But man combining that with expanding the frequency and types of Injuries could make it a far more compelling and interesting system, which would have ripple effects all over the place influencing player behavior when in combat, how they manage resources and so forth. 

Edited by Enduin
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Have finally came up with a suggestion I am satisfied with, both thematically and mechanically.

 

Am am thinking of separating it in two variants:

- v1. Heavy - requires more changes

- v2. Light - requires less changes

 

PUnCJKc.png

 

Resolve has an association for me with being to strive for longer periods, and at the same time of occasionally making a short but very intensive effort. Empower actually fits nicely in this as it gives us the possibility to regain resources and continue fighting, or make that last battle-deciding push. And it's not something random, it's a willpower effort resultant from inner preparation/build-up overtime.

 

With this system we would be able to build low-res characters that may heve great damage/speed but they burn up quickly (run out of resources); and also build high-res characters that will be able to empower more than once per combat, and continue fighting over and over.

 

Resolve is now useful and for ranged casters. And it has attractiveness and for slow-spell-damage oriented ones, and for cc-focused ones as they will be able to empower their crowd-control for greater accuracy and for bypass of enemy inspiration (of same attribute, if any) from the get-go.

 

P.S. The reason behind "-1 outcoming graze threshold" for perception is:

- to buff the dps component of this stat by a tiiny fraction

- and especially to increase the reliability of our per-based-casters (namely debilitators) closer to that of PoE1 levels

Interesting idea, although if empower charges passively regenerate, I imagine there would be even less reason to rest.  

 

I also think it would hinge on how long the average fight would last on normal.

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I like the idea under the condition that the ai (enemies and programmable companion ai) would learn to use empowers too. Without ai implementation debuffing enemy resolve wouldn't have any effect and people who like to rely on companion ai wouldn't get the bonus.

Yeap, enemies should have this empower generation too. Everything related to attributes is a double edged sword and should affect both enemies and the players.

 

In general resolve would be a "good player's" attribute, as you need to use empowers and know how to use them best. All the other attributes affect primarily passive mechanics.

Not neccessary.

While it's true that a "good player" could make a build/party around maximizing the empower charges gain and steamroll with it, he also could drop RES, and attempt to finish combat by the time another player would be getting his his first bonus empower charge.

I loved how in PoE1 you could make high-dps/hard-cc or sturdy/killing-over-time party and both being ~equally effective. So was keeping that in mind.

 

Btw I was a bit surprised how many new players went for high/max-RES, even on ciphers, and saying: but it helps in conversations) Obviously for such players combat time would take longer. Aaand they would be able to make more of empower generation. I think it's nice that they would be able to regain resources and not be stuck auto-attacking)

 

With that suggestion, do you think there should be per rest empowers, as there currently are, as well? I feel like rest spamming might negate the effectiveness of resolve if there were.

I was thinking that both approaches would do:

- Keep it, and players would be able to start combat already with 1 charge (provided that they are at least lvl 2). But they would have to rest, if they would want to start the next combat with empower too. And that's untill level 6, when they get another charge. On lvl 10, they would be able to start combat with empower, 3 combats in a row; on lvl 14 - 4 combats in a row, and so on. Here's the progression from update #40: image

- Or discard it and thus also nerf the stealth-opening with empowered-fireballs and alike

 

To choose the first, the second, or the compromise is up to Josh. And depends on encounter design, average enemy hp values versus player's openers, power level bonus on empower and so on.

Edited by MaxQuest
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Interesting idea, although if empower charges passively regenerate, I imagine there would be even less reason to rest.  

 

I also think it would hinge on how long the average fight would last on normal.

 

Well, combined with expanding the Injury system so that Minor Injuries could be acquired relatively frequently through normal combat via Crits would certainly provide ample reason to rest, while also hopefully making it so that resting is seen more as a more strategic action rather than a reflexive one when an Injury is acquired as it kind of is right now. 

 

Personally I'd also be in favor of no inherent Empower charges, just built up when in combat. At most I'd say give one every 10 levels. So at level 20 players would have 3 inherently, recouped by resting. Then have the normal Empower charge rate be dictated primarily by your Power Level with then Resolve, per MaxQuest's suggestion, amplify that. This would also give single class characters another small edge over multiclass characters give them an inherently faster Empower charge rate. 

Edited by Enduin
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I like the thinking, though reasonable minds could deviate on the actual bonuses for each attribute. Focusing specifically on RES as everything stands (and assuming the return of MIG), I'd like to address a couple memes.

1) Gromnir's point about alpha strikers. Is it really that bad if you can't alpha strike with empower? I don't think so.

2) Josh's point about Empower being too strong and maybe deserving of a nerf.

3) Empower being the sole remnant of a per rest system. I like per rest all right, but not for only empower. May as well kill it off.

 

With all of that in mind, I recommend as time passes, empower power level grows for each character at a rate dependent upon their respective RES, to a maximum of RES power levels. When a character is at max empower, the icon can flash or something to let the player know there is a character at max. The character can empower a power with only half of the total power levels at a time (because 20 RES getting +20 Power Levels seems OP). You cannot use empower to recover power points as now, but if you empower an ability you cannot trigger due to lack of discipline (or whatever), you can increase the power level cost of the empowerment by 1 per point. So if you have Empower 1, you could empower an ability that normally requires one discipline at its base power level when you are out of discipline.

 

I don't like random empowerment in general, at least not with RES, but if you start a combat with ? empower, that might be fun. The ? could be replaced with an actual number when combat starts, but when you are doing the alpha strike, you don't really know how empowered it is going to be. (It could even be zero.)

Edited by wahmann1
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Instead of the RNG empower, or a buildup to an empower, I would like to see a more deterministic way of "empowering" abilities and spells to RES.

 

My proposal would be to tie this to the interrupt/concentration mechanic by adding +1 power level for each layer of concentration that your character has active.  Roleplay-wise, this would reflect the idea that characters with high resolve are more focused and hit harder without spiking the character's damage output.  It also incentivizes stacking concentration, which could be challenging to do in a fight given that you have other tactical considerations.

 

Then give a bonus to concentration generation for pumping RES in the ways described itt.

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if a simple % chance for empower refund ain't deemed sexy enough, along sorta similar lines suggested by wahmann1, am thinking resolve would become much more vital to all classes if there were an encounter delay on empower use which could effective be modified by resolve, though am not immediately seeing a simple and easily understood way to implement.  reason why we hated chanters in poe so much were the largely uncontrollable delay 'tween invocations. is one reason we like the skald so much-- is a way to force a quicker inspiration opportunity. have a countdown clock for empower would be admitted maddening, but would discourage us from dumping resolve. have a built-in delay for empower would help avoid the alpha strike empower extremes as well as making resolve more desirable.  such a scheme would also be less likely to require an alteration to enemy empowers than other resolve suggestions.  

 

if the standard delay for empower use were X seconds following start o' combat, with resolve affecting the rate o' the countdown clock, am seeing how resolve dumpers would be discouraged. sub ten resolve would actual slow the countdown and high resolve would quicken?  folks seem to think casters is current getting the fuzzy end o' the lollipop, so such a scheme would have a tendency to favor casters in the current strength-based deadfire beta as 'posed to weapon users. 

 

resolve empower countdown + refund chance?  dunno if both is necessary. and again, am not certain how to make such a resolve modified countdown work so math is easily understood by players.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I am interested in the idea of characters building up empower during combat, with Resolve affecting the rate of growth. If you start at zero, then you limit the potential for alpha strike problems and get off per-rest, which is a bit of an awkward fit for a game that has broadly embraced a per encounter design.

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