Beta Speed Mod

[Boeroer]

Like so:

[img=http://www.thisisnotreal.com/example.gif]

[dunehunter]

 

From what I understand, this is also overkill isn't it?

If you make 4 swings with DW_FAST it's overkill by 20 dmg.

If you make 3 swings with DW_FAST it's underkill by 10 dmg.

 

But the point is 2H weapon cause overkill more easily than fast weapon.

It may feel so. But the whole thing depends on: is enemy hp divisible by your weapon damage.

And I don't know yet how to mathematically compute this possible discrepancy.

 

 

Overkill/Underkill seems to be the two side of same case. But let's use an extreme case.

 

Weapon A does 50 damage in 50 second. Another weapon B does 1 damage per second. It's obvious that weapon A will overkill/underkill more easily than B. So I'd say 2H weapon cause overkill/underkill more easily than DW fast weapon.

[Boeroer]

But only because your second example has a granularity of 1.

[MaxQuest]

Overkill/Underkill seems to be the two side of same case. But let's use an extreme case.

 

Weapon A does 50 damage in 50 second. Another weapon B does 1 damage per second. It's obvious that weapon A will overkill/underkill more easily than B. So I'd say 2H weapon cause overkill/underkill more easily than DW fast weapon.

Valid point. The selected granularity difference is much bigger than between 2H and 1H_FAST weapons, but your example helped me understand how to compute the average dps loss from overkill. It's actually simple :

 

avg_overkill = avg_dmg / 2

avg_overkill_dps_loss = 100% * avg_overkill / enemy_hp

 

And concrete examples:

v1: hp = 141 (grubs)

2H: 18-23 -> avg = 20.5 -> avg_overkill = 10.25 -> avg_overkill_dps_loss = 7.2%

1H_FAST: 8-9 -> avg = 8.5 -> avg_overkill = 4.25 -> avg_overkill_dps_loss = 3.0%

 

v2: hp = 638 (titan)

2H: 18-23 -> avg = 20.5 -> avg_overkill = 10.25 -> avg_overkill_dps_loss = 1.6%

1H_FAST: 8-9 -> avg = 8.5 -> avg_overkill = 4.25 -> avg_overkill_dps_loss = 0.066%

 

Conclusion: 2H weapons lose on average ~4% more dps due to overkill than 1H_FAST weapons.

Edited February 20, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

I really hope the guys at Obsidian are still following this.

 

What you can't really compute is how over- and underkill affects the encounter. If you manage to one-shot an enemy with an overkill at least he's no threat anymore - while he could theoretically do something really nasty while you recovery from your first (underkill) strike.

 

It's not that easy. I think you can't just put additional 4% damamge on two handers and then it's all perfectly balanced. What do you think?

 

Also I hate that Full Attacks favor hard hitting one handers. But that's another thing...

Edited February 20, 2018 by Boeroer

[theBalthazar]

This topic is crazy ! : )

 

Good work !

Edited February 20, 2018 by theBalthazar

[FreeKaner]

It seems after these changes, which are very good, enemies on the whole would need a bit of HP increase to compensate. The combat seems to end too fast. Even in the base game I think encounters could use a bit more HP.

Edited February 20, 2018 by FreeKaner

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I think the best scheme for optimal dps would be something like DW_Fast > SW_Slow > 1H_Fast > 2H = 1H > Shield_Fast > Shield_Slow.

 

I strongly disagree.

 

For me 2H MUST be the best DPS.

 

2H > 1H Slow > 1H Fast > DW Slow > DW_Fast > > > Shield_Fast > Shield_Slow

 

Speed add 'secret values' of DPS... at equal DPS...

 

Ideally :

 

2H = 4s, with best DPS

1H = 3s

1H Fast = 2s

 

It is logical, if your weapon is heavier, you attack slightly slower. Equal DPS = I choose Dual wielding because fast attack add an additionnal invisible DPS. (bottleneck effect = 50 000 damages on 30s recovery with an ennemy with 1 HP left... Loss of 49 999 damage, and I have to wait 30s)

 

+ Double effect of two weapons > One effect to one weapon. (Unique, Soulbound)

 

I'm taking into account speed, namely that DW will hit more frequently than 1H_Slow or 2H which (rightfully) have the same speed in Deadfire. Giving DW the highest DPS and giving 1H and 2H lower DPS but situational advantages(high defense enemies and high armor enemies respectively) is inline with PoE's tradeoffs and doesn't further increase issues of underkill as MaxQuest calculated.

 

And I would count the double effect as a weakness as well as an advantage for DW, because they've got to find another weapon with an on-hit effect or enchant one while 2H and 1H only need one weapon to find or enchant. Assuming Deadfire is like PoE, Unique and Soulbound will be very limited and outfitting a DW will be more resource costly than outfitting a 2H or 1H, unless we're swimming in Helwax Molds or whatever resources are required to get top tier enchantments.

[dunehunter]

 

 

I think the best scheme for optimal dps would be something like DW_Fast > SW_Slow > 1H_Fast > 2H = 1H > Shield_Fast > Shield_Slow.

I strongly disagree.

 

For me 2H MUST be the best DPS.

 

2H > 1H Slow > 1H Fast > DW Slow > DW_Fast > > > Shield_Fast > Shield_Slow

 

Speed add 'secret values' of DPS... at equal DPS...

 

Ideally :

 

2H = 4s, with best DPS

1H = 3s

1H Fast = 2s

 

It is logical, if your weapon is heavier, you attack slightly slower. Equal DPS = I choose Dual wielding because fast attack add an additionnal invisible DPS. (bottleneck effect = 50 000 damages on 30s recovery with an ennemy with 1 HP left... Loss of 49 999 damage, and I have to wait 30s)

 

+ Double effect of two weapons > One effect to one weapon. (Unique, Soulbound)

I'm taking into account speed, namely that DW will hit more frequently than 1H_Slow or 2H which (rightfully) have the same speed in Deadfire. Giving DW the highest DPS and giving 1H and 2H lower DPS but situational advantages(high defense enemies and high armor enemies respectively) is inline with PoE's tradeoffs and doesn't further increase issues of underkill as MaxQuest calculated.

 

And I would count the double effect as a weakness as well as an advantage for DW, because they've got to find another weapon with an on-hit effect or enchant one while 2H and 1H only need one weapon to find or enchant. Assuming Deadfire is like PoE, Unique and Soulbound will be very limited and outfitting a DW will be more resource costly than outfitting a 2H or 1H, unless we're swimming in Helwax Molds or whatever resources are required to get top tier enchantments.

But the material cost of enchantment is doubled for 2H weapon isn’t it? I don’t see why 2H weapon has advantages here unless they change it in DF.

 

Talking about weapon bonus. If it remains that all weapon has same enhancement maximum limit of 14 point. You get double stats bonus when dual wielding. So if you wield a sword with +2 Con, DW gives u +4 Con. So can u find a 2H that gives +4 Con? At least in PoE1 it’s not possible.

Edited February 20, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

Well there's a two hander in PoE that gives you +4 MIG while the only other one hander that gives you MIG only does give you +1 MIG.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

I think the best scheme for optimal dps would be something like DW_Fast > SW_Slow > 1H_Fast > 2H = 1H > Shield_Fast > Shield_Slow.

I strongly disagree.

 

For me 2H MUST be the best DPS.

 

2H > 1H Slow > 1H Fast > DW Slow > DW_Fast > > > Shield_Fast > Shield_Slow

 

Speed add 'secret values' of DPS... at equal DPS...

 

Ideally :

 

2H = 4s, with best DPS

1H = 3s

1H Fast = 2s

 

It is logical, if your weapon is heavier, you attack slightly slower. Equal DPS = I choose Dual wielding because fast attack add an additionnal invisible DPS. (bottleneck effect = 50 000 damages on 30s recovery with an ennemy with 1 HP left... Loss of 49 999 damage, and I have to wait 30s)

 

+ Double effect of two weapons > One effect to one weapon. (Unique, Soulbound)

 

I'm taking into account speed, namely that DW will hit more frequently than 1H_Slow or 2H which (rightfully) have the same speed in Deadfire. Giving DW the highest DPS and giving 1H and 2H lower DPS but situational advantages(high defense enemies and high armor enemies respectively) is inline with PoE's tradeoffs and doesn't further increase issues of underkill as MaxQuest calculated.

 

And I would count the double effect as a weakness as well as an advantage for DW, because they've got to find another weapon with an on-hit effect or enchant one while 2H and 1H only need one weapon to find or enchant. Assuming Deadfire is like PoE, Unique and Soulbound will be very limited and outfitting a DW will be more resource costly than outfitting a 2H or 1H, unless we're swimming in Helwax Molds or whatever resources are required to get top tier enchantments.

 

But the cost of enchantment is doubled for 2H weapon isn’t it? I don’t see why 2H weapon has advantages here unless they change it in DF.

 

I can't remember and it shouldn't be imo. But given how enchanting in deadfire will work, you will need to find a unique that already has a lash or on hit ability to enchant it further.

 

You get double stats bonus when dual wielding. So if you wield a sword with +2 Con, DW gives u +4 Con. So can u find a 2H that gives +4 Con? At least in PoE1 it’s not possible.

Stat bonuses from weapons don't stack, so the additional +2 Con would be suppressed. Edited February 20, 2018 by KaineParker

[dunehunter]

Well there's a two hander in PoE that gives you +4 MIG while the only other one hander that gives you MIG only does give you +1 MIG.

I wouldn’t compare a soul bound weapon to a normal weapon tho. And if you take the enhancement cost into account, most of soulvound weapon has much more than 14 point they should have.

Edited February 20, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

@KaineParker:

In Deadfire? Because in PoE they do. Stat bonuses on weapons and shield stack with *everything* in PoE.

 

@dunehunter: just an example. And yes, in PoE two handed weapons had double enchantment costs when it comes to ingredients.

Despite them having multiple weird and maybe costly enchantments they are considered to be the worse option in most cases because: no lash.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

@MaxQuest: I know you once spoke about the Transmuter's/Ogre's hide armor and that it has +100% recovery with 6AR (superbadass) - while plate has 55% and Spiritshift armor has 0%.

 

Do you have plans to fix this as well? Or maybe you already did and I missed it?

Edited February 20, 2018 by Boeroer

[theBalthazar]

Stat bonuses from weapons don't stack, so the additional +2 Con would be suppressed. 

 

 

Afflictions (consecutives) + Pure bonus (https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Godansthunyr) stack

 

. Stat bonuses on weapons and shield stack with *everything* in PoE. 

 

 

Quick. Too bad for me : p

Edited February 20, 2018 by theBalthazar

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

@KaineParker:

In Deadfire? Because in PoE they do. Stat bonuses on weapons and shield stack with *everything* in PoE.

Huh, I just assumed that since because armor or other items didn't stack weapons didn't either. Guess it's another case of weird stacking rules.

 

@dunehunter: just an example. And yes, in PoE two handed weapons had double enchantment costs when it comes to ingredients.

Despite them having multiple weird and maybe costly enchantments they are considered to be the worse option in mode cases because: no lash.

Which is bad design imo. Regardless if enchantment in deadfire rolls out how explained so far, whatever weapon you wish to enchant will require the existence of a similar enchantment. As such the point of having to find two decent 1H weapons as opposed to one decent 1H or 2H still stands.

[dunehunter]

Despite them having multiple weird and maybe costly enchantments they are considered to be the worse option in mode cases because: no lash.

Yeah and they fix it by not allowing normal weapon without lash to be enchanted with lash

[theBalthazar]

Guess it's another case of weird stacking rules.

 

 

Yes ! Frankly, All could be simple if everything stacked. Fairer.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Guess it's another case of weird stacking rules.

 

Yes ! Frankly, All could be simple if everything stacked. Fairer.

 

I agree, but at the very least it should be consistent. That gauntlets and a belt don't stack but gauntlets and a hammer do is completely unintuitive.

[IndiraLightfoot]

For the gazillionth time, most of us learn something new about PoE1. It's the lack of in-game info and feedback again. Let's hope this doesn't repeat itself in Deadfire. 

We can't all be Boeroer and MaxQuest rolled into one (sadly).

[Boeroer]

I wonder how the private life of that hybrid would look like.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I wonder how the private life of that hybrid would look like.

I assume being a thrall of housepets.

[MaxQuest]

Thrall? The King of the pack! 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Thrall?

[MaxQuest]

if it's HS, not WoW reference
 
^ His hero power is too random. Count me down as druid - preserver of balance ^^

But we are aberrating)