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Gimme your best and gimme your worst!


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#41
demeisen

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​​

Particularly since whatever tactical decisions they enable evaporate on a replay, or after reloading.
​Well, I don't think it's a good choice to orient a system around save-spam style gaming.  Sure, some people will play that way, but I don't find it very fun myself, so I don't.  And I disagree about replays.  I played POE1 in a very resource constrained way on both my replays, even more than on my first run.  I didn't remember the minutia of what I would encounter next, so there wasn't too much metagaming at work (a little is inevitable), but I got to play through whole areas without rest, which led to a lot of pretty fun situations where I had to dig deep to scrape by, using abilities I'd never use normally.  I had to play carefully, even on the small fights.  That made them fun, in a way they weren't if I had unlimited resources to expend.
​I don't think per-rest is an ideal system, so I'll agree with you that far.  But I think the DF system throws the baby out with the bathwater, and negates a lot of the satisfaction people get from managing a party of characters over a dungeon.


#42
lunattic

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Hey everyone,

 

I'm one of the high end backers and a long term fan of obsidian and Pillars of Eternity 1. I didn't really post anything before this to withhold judgment and give the team more time to polish. Given that it's specifically asked now by a QA member I felt I might as well add my few cents. A lot of what I'll add below here has already been covered but I do feel these things can't be stressed enough. I should also add that I haven't played the last 5 or so days so if I missed an update that fixed one of the below, apologies for that. Finally, the goal of this post is to point out the weaknesses of the current build in an effort to make the final game better, not to 'bash' the beta or the developers. If any of those are reading this, know you have my faith; you made an awesome game once and can do it again, so I'm holding onto hope that you'll find a way to make it work in the end. 

 

The good:

-The atmosphere.

-Visual improvements.

-The ability to multiclass and the addition of subclasses. 

-Supposedly the ability to select different classes for your companions. 

 

The bad:

-Extremely limited set of selectable AND usable abilities for all classes.

For a non-caster it almost feels as if I have no choice, as there are usually 1 or 2 good abilities in any given tier with the rest being extremely situational or actively bad/outclassed by other abilities of the same class. In example, the fighter dps cooldown (disciplined strikes especially with the crit upgrade) virtually obsoletes the passive fighter ability of turning misses to grazes. Sure, that saves me a power point but 50% crit rate just outweighs everything else. What further adds to this problem is that characters have extremely limited pools of resources to actively use abilities. This means that all active abilities compete with eachother for resoources and thus push me further towards the few good passive talents the class has available. If I have one good spender ability, why would I waste points in getting another? Especially since I can only use two or so abilities each fight  before running out of power points to use!

 

>Proposed fix: Change system of active abilities back to pillars 1 in which every active ability can be used a set X times per fight or per day. This would make selecting active abilities much more attractive compared to passive ones and both fixes the problem with no options in combat and running out of abilities instantly. Having empower as a seperate mechanic is enough of a mechanical upgrade to me. 

 

For casters this problem is even worse (I've played chanters, wizards and clerics in the beta): since they have no innate spells, have to buy every spell seperately, have no selectable options other than their spells and are now also bound of per encounter spellcasting, caster classes just feel extremely 'empty' to me. They have no passives or meaningful choices at all, it's just selecting the best spells and their upgrades if any and just using those same spells over and over. As someone who enjoys building characters, i'm legitimately sad to say that this is probably the most boring iteration of caster character creation I have ever seen in RPG's. I have a strong preference for how casters were in pillars 1, with their spells being limited per day but also much varied and useable than what they currently are. Plus, I had the ability to actually build the character with additional utility the way I wanted them, which is impossible now. 

 

> Proposed fix: return at least a basic set of innate spells for all casters and fill their talent tree with meaningful talents. 

 

-Combat in general:

Combat feels extremely slow paced to me. In addition, armor penetration as a mechanic is way too powerful (30% damage if you fail to meet the armor, 100% if you do? What? That's a 333% damage increase depending sorely on penetration? Way too much of a difference, and any party not having this is severely screwed). Wizards and clerics also seem particularly weak in fights since they have gigantic casting times and are way too open to being interrupted by ranged enemies. I'd say casters are too reliant on having their concentration buff from somewhere the same way melee are too reliant on having a penetration mechanic from somewhere. 

 

>Proposed fix: severely tone down penetration by reducing the damage penalty for not meeting it. 30% is way too much, 60 or 70 % damage is much more reasonable. Reduce casting time for casters. Actually, heck, return the combat to what it was in Pillars 1. I'm currently replaying this to get the last few achievements and it's shocking to me how much better that combat feels than what is currently in the pillars 2 beta. I wish I didn't have to feel that way :(

 

-Lack of clear information on the workings of spells and mechanics. 

One of my largest gripes with the beta. Others have already spoken of this, but to give one example the effect of empower on the abilities are too unclear. 

 

-Ship combat.

The current iteration again suffers from lack of clarity and information. In addition, it is really hurt by the lack of an ability to either flee or reload the game. If you are losing a fight, you have no option but to wait for the enemy to very slowly kill you.  I should also add here that the amount of resources used by the crew feels much too high for me. 

 

-The 'Might' change to strength:

This seems to go against your own design goal of having every stat being important for every character. This is what I liked about the stats in pillars, they actually were all important to the different builds, except perhaps resolve, which was still unique but underpowered. With might now being strength and only applying to weapons, it is now virtually useless for any caster. 

 

>Proposed fix: If resolve is the problem, and required you to give half of might's old benefit to fix it, I would either remove constitution and add that effect to resolve (to characterize a character's internal drive and ability to fight on despite injury - has an additional benefit of not having to rewrite resolve dialogue options and in pillars 1 the constituation ones were extremely rare anyway) or remove resolve alltogether and add the deflection bonus to constitution (let's be honest, constitution is also fairly weak since it's a stat that doesn't actively make you either better at dealing damage or better at reducing damage taken, which is why it's the second most dumped stat next to resolve).

Removing either resolve or constitution and buffing the other with the removed effect would leave you with 5 stats, but they would all be useful to all builds and unique. Every conversation option for removing resolve can easily be added to either intelligence or might since it always comes down to knowing exactly what to say or intimidating someone into cooperating.

 

Well, that's everything from the top of my hat. I hope the team can still fix a few of the issues before launch, since I want this game to be as awesome as it can be!


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#43
Lamppost in Winter

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The good:

  • Multiclassing and subclasses are cool (most of them anyway)
  • The expanded skills are really good for RP
  • New scripted interaction system seems very strong; cool that you can do stuff like select any ability with the "Fire" tag to burn something, for example
  • Stealth system is fun
  • Much prefer the resource-based system to the X per-encounter abilities
  • Companion help for stat checks
  • The Afflictions/Inspirations system is neat, especially the countering between them
  • I like Armor/Pen as it is now and think it'll work better at higher levels than DR did, though the people who care to dive deeper into the numbers may have their concerns.

The mixed:

  • World map exploration is pretty good right now but can feel tedious, especially when it can take 12 in-game hours to reach some small alcove that gives you 5 berries (understand that Josh said this is being worked on). Taking the time to explore an island that just gives you some generic items with no other interactions or story to it also feels bad.
  • It's cool that my casters can actually cast every fight now,, but it can make fights feel really repetitive.
  • Ship duels can be exciting, once I watched some videos on how you're supposed to do it, but managing ship resources seems like it could get pretty tedious in the actual game.
  • Affliction nerfs: it's fine for hard CC to not be gamebreaking, but it feels like there should be some more effect to them. I feel like somewhere between -10 to -20 to, say, Deflection and Reflex for Paralyze/Stun is pretty reasonable, for example. Having some of the non-CC Afflictions reduce defenses as well would also help I think
  • The NPC schedules seem pretty limited right now, though I guess that might be beta roughness.
  • I like the idea of schools of magic, but it seems hard to make a specific character type with some the Wizard subclasses
  • Perception for detecting traps/secrets is good, though I feel having high Mechanics should still contribute to that

The bad:

  • I liked the Accuracy buff/Defense debuff juggle of PoE combat, and I feel like that's less present in Deadfire. Fewer accuracy buffs (which I'm aware is intentional), and you seem to have to use a spell that specifically reduces Defense rather than an Affliction to do it, related to what I just said about Afflictions.
  • Lack of passives/general talents, though I know this is being worked on
  • Empower doesn't feel like a good replacement for per-rest abilities; feels very video-gamey, though using it in combat can still be interesting
  • The Black Jacket subclass just seems pretty bad
  • Still prefer Health to Injuries

Edited by Lamppost in Winter, 16 February 2018 - 07:09 PM.

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#44
Boeroer

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When I look at the title of the thread, who opened it and remember what the intention was then I suddenly feel the urge to discuss per-encounter vs. per-rest elsewhere.
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#45
ShadySands

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Good - No more Vancian casting

 

Bad - No pen no pen no pen



#46
Archaven

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When I look at the title of the thread, who opened it and remember what the intention was then I suddenly feel the urge to discuss per-encounter vs. per-rest elsewhere.

 

I personally prefer the change as per-encounter. It was a big tedium for me that they use campfire as the resource. Could it be per-encounter was badly implemented in DF?. Maybe you should create a separate thread and it be interesting to read through your thoughts about it. Sorry for deviating the thread. And i would like to thank Obsidian team, at least they read through these feedback and concerns and are aware of it.



#47
dunehunter

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Bad:

1. benefit over penetration is too low, punishment for no pen is too harsh. It feels too binary and shall be changed to be more linear. And critical attack feels not rewarding enough because over penetration bonus is an additive.

2. Recovery time too long, I’m fine with 3-5sec cast time, but at least reduce recovery time so we don’t idle there watch each other.

3. No generic talents.

4. Might split to Str and Res.

On the phone so can’t text a lot.

Edited by dunehunter, 16 February 2018 - 09:28 PM.


#48
draego

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Bad:

 

Weapon proficiencies models. They would be better done away with and some re-purposed as general talent models that arent so punishing and can be used by any weapon types you choose for your run. Its feels wonky trying to remember to turn on and off after all arent models meant to stay on for a while. I also would rather think about picking weapon types for my playthrough without thinking if the ability synergyses with my class and if it doesnt then feeling bad for wanting but ultimately moving on to some other weapon types.

 

I think when people complained about not having weapon proficiencies in POE1, they were thinking more in terms of points to spend to get better over time in weapons. Obsidian explicitly went away from this in POE 1 and now it feels like split the baby situation. They dont want to bring back d&d proficiencies but want to appease the complaints so we get this stuff


Edited by draego, 16 February 2018 - 09:58 PM.


#49
Boeroer

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When I look at the title of the thread, who opened it and remember what the intention was then I suddenly feel the urge to discuss per-encounter vs. per-rest elsewhere.

 

I personally prefer the change as per-encounter. It was a big tedium for me that they use campfire as the resource. Could it be per-encounter was badly implemented in DF?. Maybe you should create a separate thread and it be interesting to read through your thoughts about it. Sorry for deviating the thread. And i would like to thank Obsidian team, at least they read through these feedback and concerns and are aware of it.

 

Erm, the emphasis was on "elsewhere" rather than "I feel the urge to discuss". Ach, another ironic post gone wrong on the internt. ;)



#50
theBalthazar

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How can it be more strategic to spam every spells in every fights, versus, having to think twice before using one that you may need in the next fight ? You know, that One very specific Spell, you wish you didn't use, because you really need it this time ?

 

 

Yes you misreading. You have always all your possibilities. You think a strategic man do something with less possibilities ? He play with all his cards. Here, in each battle, you have all your cards.

 

Example : When you are at a boss battle, you don't want 4 spells by level of spell ? You rest, end of the problem in POE1.

 

And in this situation, you have a full list, like per encounter (like now). You are just prepared for that. It is a tiny difference we do not feel.

 

Also avoid the "I did not rest and it's a surprise fight, I'm without anything".

 

What has changed is the rest.

 

Simple.

 

So those who rest often give the illusion that it is by encounter. There is almost no difference between Encounter / Rest in this case. Eventually is a mental difference, no more.

 

And since we are talking mental/illusions, for me, per rest are problemetic like "I do not know when to use / I don't use them for now". I do not use them enough (as Josh found that too few people use empower = the same phenomenon). The feeling of loss is a mental effect.

 

The only difference in fact, it is for trash mob, you do not have to come back to town every time when you have nothing left. It is an improvement.

 

I'm sorry but "spamming every spell you have, like no brain, just because you can"... Cause they will all be available in the next fight anyway, is less Strategic than having to think twice before taking any Action you might regret afterward. 

 

 

False. In POE1, I spam Devotion of the faithful, it is no less no brain.

 

How a Full List of Spells can be more limiting, versus having 2, [Max 3] Spells only to use ? I mean, it's literraly written : 2-3 Spells Max are more limiting than a Full List of Spells, no ?   :ermm:

 

 

You don't read what I say exacly. I tell you Full list of spells AND per encounter/per rest are two differents problems. I am for a full list because it is more strategic.


Edited by theBalthazar, 17 February 2018 - 12:49 AM.


#51
vanyel54

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Something to add on my wrong list: the new inventory upper arrow icon is really disturbing.
And as i have say before, remove the global stash from inventory screen. Or remove personnal inventory and introduce a team stash and a more global ship stash.

Edited by vanyel54, 17 February 2018 - 01:18 AM.


#52
DexGames

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You do not have to come back to town every time when you have nothing left. It is an improvement.

Less Ressource Management isn't an Improvement, it's the opposite, but that's my opinion.

 

False. In POE1, I spam Devotion of the faithful, it is no less no brain.

You mean this one ?

 1518859647-devotion.png

 

I am for a full list because it is more strategic.

Ok, we both have an agreement then. 

 

So those who rest often give the illusion that it is by encounter. There is almost no difference between Encounter / Rest in this case. Eventually is a mental difference, no more.

Well, of course, if you play on Relaxed Difficulty & have 99 Resting Supplies there's no problem.  :lol:

 

When you have only two Camping Supplies for an entire dungeon, suddenly things you mention becomes less Mental & more Practical.

That's where you have to manage your ressources & stop spamming brainlessly.

 

In fact that was the whole point of why they introduced limited Camping Supplies, to avoid the "Rest Spamming" from previous Games.

That, was an Improvement.


Edited by DexGames, 17 February 2018 - 02:14 AM.

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#53
Silvaren

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GOOD
1. Visuals, game looks gorgeous
- detailed character's model
- option to turn on and off helmets, cloaks, pets, draw and hide weapons at the inventory screen
- dynmaic lights & shadows
- clouds
- wheater effects
- spell effects (and fading out during the pause)
- animated foliage and water look super cool
- birds, birds, BIRDS, BIRDS!!!
- idle animations
2. Sounds, so far much imrpoved
- spell effects
- weapon sounds
- music (only few tracks but I already uploaded them on youtubbe, so I could listen music during work until OST will be released)
3. Multiclass system
- player can fulfill fantasy by making character's cooncept which works mechanically in the game
4. polished gameplay
- characters are better at finding clear path to the target and can spread out near the enemy to make room for brothers in arms
- AI customisation on the same level as in Dragon Age II (or even better), while I don't need such system in the game which doesn't have cooldows, it's nice tool for people who don't like too much micromanagement
- new stealth mechanic works really well
- new skills like Sleight of hand and specialisation in different kind of lore
- option to copy-paste items in quick slots, like shield it's great, it's literally the only one missing thing that prevents me from changing weapons set in first PoE, because I didn't want to lose benefits from certain shield or off-hand weapon
- new map which allows player to quickly embark on a journey
- huge amount of unique dialogs depeneding on class, race, background etc
- C&C are great from moral standpoint, each choice has consequences so the outcome won't be 100% perfect, bad choices should be consider as valid

MIXED
1. ship management
- it's cool concept to own the ship as stronghold and use it to explore Deadfire Archipelago
- ship combat seems to be confusing and repetetive, but it can be more interesting in final version with all the choices about crew members, upgrades and types of ship
- I would like an option to confront enemy ship instantly through abordage at the begining of sea encounter, I coudn't get close enough in the beta so far
- I would like an option to resolve sea encounters through quick combat (like in Hearoes of Might and Magic series)
- resource management is interesting concept but it shouldn't force player to be constantly worrying about supplies, while it can put some reasonable limits to exploration and ship's operational range it seems that it will consume too much money. I know that in PoE money at some point wasn't a problem and some kind of "gold sink" mechanic is required for Deadfire. I guess the ship will be introduce after a while, some kind of prologue.
2. Magic system
- I prefer old system because of habits from p&p RPG and Iinfinity Engine games
- 2 spells of every power level per fight seems to make caster less flexible and limited in terms of tactical choices, I understand that it add another usage for Empower to regain spells and on higher levels characters will have greater repertoire to pick from
- if currrent system stays I would like to have an option to cast lower level spells by using higher level spell's limit (without any benefits, just to have option for another cast of certain lower level spells, like in D&D 3 wizard could remember for example additional 1st level Magic Missile using second level spell's slot - or even much higher level slot - please, do not confuse it with metamagic feats)

BAD
1. No general talents
- I'm replaying PoE right now and it still feel fresh and deep in terms of character's build, there is so much to try, in Deadfire I have to multiclass my characters to make similar builds to those from the first game
- wizards and priests without passive abilities are lacking in terms of customisation, domains and grimoires aren't sufficient to make them as much appealing as other classes
- sequel should imrpove, provide evolution not revolution, right now it's imposible to mechanically recreate every Watcher from the first game (for example Blast Wizard)
2. Casting time
- it's too damn long, yes, it makes Dextirity more important but it shoudn't punish players who aren't min-maxing attributes because in PoE every attribute can be important for character
- in first beta build when spells didn't graze wizards were far behind other classes, too long to cast spells, too little damage or no debuffing effects8
- long casting times are easier to interrupt, long activation and recovery put them far behind martial classes
3. Confusing mechanics
- there are no indicators how Empower boosts every abiliy
- there is no clear info how much abilities gain from higher power level
- outdated tooltips (for example Penetration displayes rules from first beta build, pen mechanic was changed - wasn't?)
- even if player knows how certain formula are calculated it's hard to imagine how it will work without testing (action speed and recovery) and calcuation are complex, there is no clarity about stackings

EDIT
Few things I forgot to mention.

TERRIBLE
1. Weapons modals
- they are tradeoffs but in many cases penalties are much higher than benefits
- all classes can use all weapons without hurting themselves so in analogy to D&D, all classes are proficient with all weapons, and modals doesn't seem to require more training (aka "proficiency") while using specific weapon, most of those tradeoffs seem natural and I don't think that they need special training to perform, it's not consistent with Weapon Focus talent (grants +6 accuracy - yeah, this is true weapon proficiency)
- maybe it will be better if character could choose lesser number of modals, but designed not as harsh tradeoffs but as something like mastery in using certain weapon, purely benefit from proficient weapon in use (for example one proficiency at the strat of the game and second on higher level) it could impact Black Jacket subclass to be more interesting as master in different weapons rather than person who can basically quick draw pistols like some kind of cowboy (Black Jacke choosing more proficient weapons than other classes)
2. Wizard's subclasses (and little about priest's domain)
- too much tradeoffs in all sublclasses, it should be restricted in terms of avaliable school of magic, but I'm not sure if +1 power level compensate it enough (what it does for all spells?). And the longer recovery for spells from different school is atrocious, isn't casting and recovery long enough already for casters?
- I prefer sorcerer or general wizard in D&D, the only one specialized mage I could play in D&D was the Red Wizard from Thay. In D&D specialized mage was losing acces to few schools of magic but gained ONE ADDITIONAL SPELL per day. Something like that would be cool in Deadfire. Like now it's 2 spells from every level per encounter. Why specialized wizard can't get +1 additional spell per level (of chosen school) to use in every fight, a spell determined through leveling proces (like in first PoE one bonus spell per encounter), It could be similar for priest's domain - one additional spell over those 2 per level during the fight (just like in D&D spells from cleric's domain have different pool).
- right now I would pick general wizard, subclasses aren't appealing for me in terms of unique ability. At the beginning of the beta I liked Evoker, but when proc for second cast dropped from 30% to 15% in latest update and scepter's modal Destructive Channeling won't grant additional 20% damge for spell anymore, there is no point in giving up other school of magic and take penalties in recovery time for rest of themm.
- too long casting, it shoudn't be designed with Deleterious Alacrity of Motion in mind

Edited by Silvaren, 17 February 2018 - 04:24 AM.

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#54
Christliar

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A lot of good observations here which I won't repeat, but I will mention what I think is causing all this confusion and some of my thoughts. All of these are from the perspective of PotD, I don't think the system makes sense on lower difficulties, just like in PoE1.

1. First and foremost, PoE 3.0 isn't some kind of pinnacle of combat design like the popular narrative here seems to suggest, quite the contrary. While it is much better than 1.0, there are some fundamental issues holding it back. It's too fast due to the ridiculous microsecond recovery times, which means too many things are happening too fast and it creates an unstructured and chaotic battlefield, necessitating mobs frontloading everything and spamming stuns in a futile attempt to control how many actions you perform in any given time frame. The action time shouldn't be able to be changed by anything, it needs to be consistent across the board and throughout the game. Without this, it creates all kinds of issues with encounter and class design, the almost mandatory nature of the Priest, the Cipher's focus being outside of all the other mechanics and many such things.

However, this might be a controversial opinion, and I hope it is, but I think Deadfire's system has much more potential than the jumbled mess of P1. The recovery time is much more reasonable and the limited casts per encounter create a situation where you can't spell spam your way through encounters. Which leads me to the Empower mechanic.

2. I think it's far too late to hope that resting is not a vestigial element that is trying and failing to appeal to grognards, not being restricted in any way means that I'll talk with the assumption that everyone will rest after every encounter, just like Josh Sawyer said people are doing and forcing his hand to remove per-rest abilities in the first place. The most obvious problem with the Empower mechanic is that it's only truly useful for spellcasters and the only thing that makes their spells land with some certainty and damage. This creates 4 scenarios, none of which are good -
 

  • Casters can only keep up with martial classes if they use their Empower every battle. Why have Empower in this case? It's an unnecessary and automatic button to press, just buff spells to compensate and be done with it.
  • Casters can keep up with martials if they don't use Empower. This obviously makes spellcasters overpowered when they do use it, inverting the current situation.
  • If resting is somehow limited, which it won't be, and spellcasters can keep up with melee, spellcasters are still a bit more overpowered than melee in certain, few situations.
  • If resting is somehow limited and casters can't keep up with melee without Empowering, then there would be no point to taking casters at all. Lugging baggage around that can only hope to match melee twice in a dungeon is not very lucrative.

 

The Empower mechanic itself is not very well thought-out and it doesn't affect melee in the same drastic way, if at all, making it impossible to balance casters and melee while it exists. Since it's far too late to remove it, I suggest finding some way for it to affect melee in the same radical manner that it does casters.

 

3. The lack of spellcaster sustainability compared to melee. I have read Sawyer's post where he thinks spellcasters are face-meltingly awesome and their damage is fine. This might be true on difficulties below PotD, the problem there being that the fight is over before any spells can go off. On PotD, however, the issue is different - the very limited damage potential casters have performs proportionally worse due to the higher HP of enemies, even if they Empower a spell. Melee can go on damaging forever, casters can't. And you can still make an optimized melee-heavy party where the fights will be over before spells can go off. This requires a lot of tweaking of numbers and casting times across the board to fix, but I think it's the most realistic thing to hope for for now. I don't think that the spells should cast much faster, however, and I'd like to see them make it work with the slower casting. The casting times of some spells should be faster, though, like single-target debuffs and summoned weapons

Some general things I agree with and I'd like to mention - too limited spell selection, forcing you to always choose the best spells each time; ship combat being repetitive and dull, but I don't think it will be changed significantly, what I hope for is that it isn't mandatory and that it doesn't gate powerful items, islands, encounters, talents and whatever else it shouldn't gate; too limited talent selection and the skewed advantage of passive talents compared to active ones, which compete with themselves for limited resources; Penetration needs to be extensively looked at, as it stands now it will either create a necessity to stack it in builds and rote automatic tactics that will see spellcasters always unloading their Pen buffs at the start of combat OR it will be a non-issue and pointless if they lower the enemies' AR across the board.

That's it for now.


Edited by Christliar, 17 February 2018 - 04:18 AM.

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#55
Madscientist

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As good thing I have forgotten to mention the AI menu.

It is great that you can define the behaviour of your chars, so that some buffs can be used automatically and easier fights can be done on "auto pilot" while chars act in a way that makes sense.

It would be nice to add the option "auto attacks only". At the moment you cannot unselect an AI setting.

 

Another good thing (but not only related to PoE2) is the bug forum.

It is good that there is a thread for every bug and we often get an answer like: "We have confirmed this bug and it will be fixed in the next update." (my favourite answer), "We could not reproduce it, please send us a file with the bug." or "This is not a bug. We talked about it and we decided it is intended that way."

I really like this kind of feedback. Keep up the good work.

 

regarding combat speed:

I do not think the game is too slow at the moment. I pause the game a lot and over a whole battle the time where I have paused the game is longer than the real time part. OK, I am somebody who plays lots of turn based games ( Trails of cold Steel at the moment ) and I am bad in action games.

If you add a speed slider in the future, this "problem" will be solved.

 

Regarding the the whole balance/casting stuff: I do not think that casters are too weak, I think that multi classed dual wielders are too strong.

Any system without per rest limits and restricted resting will lead to fights where chars use the same strongest attacks every fight.

If you call the changes from the IE games to PoE2 "dumping down" or "making it more friendly to new players" is up to you.

 

regarding posting info everywhere but not here:

I can understand that devs post info in all kinds of media so that new people learn about the game. This forum is only used by people who already know the game and of course the devs want to adress as many people as possible. They can post as much as they want on twitter, facebook,  . . . whatever as they want.

But it would be great if all relevant information are posted here too, so you have one place to see the importent stuff.

With importent stuff I mean things like:

- feature x will be added to the next update of the game

- we are aware that x is a problem/unbalanced/buggy and we are working on it

- the interview video from Josh with the other guy where they did ship combat was very interesting, but I knew this only because another user was posting it.



#56
CottonWolf

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Oh, and while I think of it, one more worst in the system that I otherwise really like:

 

Some subclasses are terrible - Specifically Mage Slayer and all the wizard subclasses but Evoker. The negatives all massively outweight the benefits. I'm sure there are other subclasses that suffer the same issue, but they're the only one's I've specifically touched. They either need a reduction in malus or a dramatic increase in bonus.


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#57
Infinitron

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Penetration needs to be extensively looked at, as it stands now it will either create a necessity to stack it in builds and rote automatic tactics that will see spellcasters always unloading their Pen buffs at the start of combat OR it will be a non-issue and pointless if they lower the enemies' AR across the board.

 

 

This is like saying that in PoE1 you had to "stack damage in builds". Damage was how you penetrated armor in PoE1, now it's something else. What's the difference? It's part of what you need to deal with to play the game well.

 

As for rote automatic tactics, there's a third option you didn't mention. The most obvious solution is removing or otherwise limiting the Pen buffs. Just like you would do with a rote damage buff in PoE1.


Edited by Infinitron, 17 February 2018 - 04:53 AM.

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#58
AndreaColombo

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Is there a need to remove pen buffs in Deadfire? There are very few already, to the point that it feels like we’re pitted against a system without the means to compete. Under-penetrating by at least 1 point is almost standard and there isn’t much you can do about it, so you’re basically being punished gratuitously for a good 25% of your damage output. That’s fun because...?
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#59
Christliar

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This is like saying that in PoE1 you had to "stack damage in builds". Damage was how you penetrated armor in PoE1, now it's something else. What's the difference? It's part of what you need to deal with to play the game well.

 

As for rote automatic tactics, there's a third option you didn't mention. The most obvious solution is removing or otherwise limiting the Pen buffs. Just like you would do with a rote damage buff in PoE1.

 

The difference is that there isn't a very specific damage threshold that you have to reach or else it will make your characters useless. Unless you slippery slope it and say "the damage threshold is downing the mobs to 0 HP" which is lol. Dealing damage is also not as limited as Pen buffs. Penetration forces every build that wants to do damage to stack Penetration as high as the highest AR enemy in the game, making every build the same in this regard and leaving very few opportunities to deviate, and automatically shooting subclasses with free access to Pen (like Devoted) up. There is no such thing with dealing damage. It also uses up the very few spells per encounter casters have on buffing Pen or debuffing armor. If there is some spell or mechanic that you have to automatically use in every encounter, it should be removed or baked into the spells/abilities.


Edited by Christliar, 17 February 2018 - 05:26 AM.


#60
IndiraLightfoot

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The bad:

-Extremely limited set of selectable AND usable abilities for all classes.

For a non-caster it almost feels as if I have no choice, as there are usually 1 or 2 good abilities in any given tier with the rest being extremely situational or actively bad/outclassed by other abilities of the same class. In example, the fighter dps cooldown (disciplined strikes especially with the crit upgrade) virtually obsoletes the passive fighter ability of turning misses to grazes. Sure, that saves me a power point but 50% crit rate just outweighs everything else. What further adds to this problem is that characters have extremely limited pools of resources to actively use abilities. This means that all active abilities compete with eachother for resoources and thus push me further towards the few good passive talents the class has available. If I have one good spender ability, why would I waste points in getting another? Especially since I can only use two or so abilities each fight  before running out of power points to use!

 

 

For casters this problem is even worse (I've played chanters, wizards and clerics in the beta): since they have no innate spells, have to buy every spell seperately, have no selectable options other than their spells and are now also bound of per encounter spellcasting, caster classes just feel extremely 'empty' to me. They have no passives or meaningful choices at all, it's just selecting the best spells and their upgrades if any and just using those same spells over and over. As someone who enjoys building characters, i'm legitimately sad to say that this is probably the most boring iteration of caster character creation I have ever seen in RPG's. I have a strong preference for how casters were in pillars 1, with their spells being limited per day but also much varied and useable than what they currently are. Plus, I had the ability to actually build the character with additional utility the way I wanted them, which is impossible now. 

 

 

-Combat in general:

Armor penetration as a mechanic is way too powerful (30% damage if you fail to meet the armor, 100% if you do? What? That's a 333% damage increase depending sorely on penetration? Way too much of a difference, and any party not having this is severely screwed). Wizards and clerics also seem particularly weak in fights since they have gigantic casting times and are way too open to being interrupted by ranged enemies. I'd say casters are too reliant on having their concentration buff from somewhere the same way melee are too reliant on having a penetration mechanic from somewhere. 

 

 

-Lack of clear information on the workings of spells and mechanics. 

One of my largest gripes with the beta. Others have already spoken of this, but to give one example the effect of empower on the abilities are too unclear. 

 

 

 

 

These bad points, I agree with heaps and heaps!


Edited by IndiraLightfoot, 17 February 2018 - 05:18 AM.





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