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Gimme your best and gimme your worst!


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#21
KaineParker

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Best
It's pretty, except for hair
Multiclassing is cool
Background skills for conversations is cool
Camping supplies are gone and replaced with something better
Proficiency is a better idea than a talent with 4-5 weapons(implementation is lacking though)
A wait option

Worst
Balance is a mess
Combat is too slow between long recovery and cast times
There's quite a lot of unintuitive stuff, particularly with stacking
Lack of talents is disappointing and sucks for characters who'd want weapon focus
No "none" option for voice

Edited by KaineParker, 16 February 2018 - 06:09 AM.

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#22
DexGames

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Disclaimer : This might turn out as a Salty post, but I want to assure everyone at Obsidian that my passion for the Game is still there, my support for you will certainely never fade out & I'm going to enjoy the Story & Everything Deadfire's has to offer, despite the flaws it may have. I absolutely do not intend to harm or hurt devs with the following.

 

Good :

 

+ Character Creation.

+ Visual Upgrade, the Game looks great.

+ Multiclass/Subclass in general.

+ Exploration feels awesome.

+ Empower is a great concept & a good idea on paper, I love it. However, because combat feels bad, it is bad. I'll developp a bit more below.

... Well, in fact, I'll go for the Bad now, but you can consider everything that isn't mentionned below, as "Good". Like, Story, Dungeons, Etc.

I mean, the Whole Pillars II Experience will be great, I'm sure, but there's what follows :

 

Bad

 

- Spellcasting as everyone said.

- Combat / Power Source & Abilties.

  • There's not enough things to do ! The Power-Source is limiting as f**k, I can launch 1, 2 or max 3 Abilities/Spells.
  • Either a Fight is finished before I could cast any Spell, either all my Abilities are drained by the AI in 10sec, leaving me with nothing to do but Auto-Attacking. 
  • Yes, I could Empower myself to cast One or two more Spells, but then ? I'm done.
  • I used to think before using a Spells, now I just spam, Fights after Fights.
  • Remember "Consecrated Ground" from Durance ? That thing was so valuable & rare, that I had to think twice before using it. Should I use it in this small fight ? Or keep it if a bigger one happens until I rest ? Now it's just there, I can use it in every random fight against random Rats & that's ok. Well no, it's not ok.
  • In fact the whole new Source stuff, Per-Encounter.... Hell, everything about the combat in POE II, feels inferior than POE I. Except the Empowering Mechanic, which could have been great ! Pillars' 1 Combat today feels better than Deadfire's. That leads me to the "What The Hell Happened Section".
  • EDIT : Also yeah, the Proficiency System : I expected Ranks, with Accuracy Bonus or whatever, like many have said already. I agree with them.

What The Hell Happened ?

 

Most of it has been covered in another post of mine, here : https://forums.obsid...sers/?p=1978593 [Please take a look]

  • It all revolves around one thing : What happenned to the Improvements made over Two-Years, to reach the Quality of 3.0 ?
  • Seems like all the hard work that you've done to reach the Quality of Combat in Pillars I, completely disappeared with the new Combat System.

Basically said, when Combat in Pillars Of Eternity 1, FINALLY felt Right, Balanced, Fun, Tactical, Diversified, Engaging, Challenging, Rewarding, Etc, when 3.0

came out... Is now kinda F*cked up, & you have to rebalance Everything from the start all over again, like 3.0 never existed.

  • Half the Spells from the First Game has been cut : Because someone poped up & said : "Huh, sometimes I can't remember which spells does what & Blablabla"...
  • To that person : "Use your f*cking right-click & read the f*cking description, then you'll know what the f*cking spell is about."
  • [Pro Tip] : If you can't Right-Click for whatever reason, today is your lucky day : You can Mouseover things & get all the informations you need, it's awesome.
  • The so-called "Might Issue" is complete Bull****.  :lol: , it should have never been changed because some people can't read a freaking Description, again, for what "Might" is & does, both Spiritually & Physically.

Final Note : The Whole Pillars II Experience + 3.0 Combat System + The Empower Mechanic, is what Deadfire should be in the end for me.

Everything else looks f*cking great guys, it's just the overall Combat Experience, that feels like a thousand steps-back from what it was.


Edited by DexGames, 16 February 2018 - 07:09 AM.

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#23
Archaven

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Reading the feedback from veterans of the first game has me *really* worried. It seems that the designer has 0 idea what they were doing? I was quite fortunate that i waited more than a year after first PoE released and only to enjoy in it's optimized and balanced state. Seems like i will have to repeat the same for Deadfire. I'm not sure if there's any simplee fix can change the state of the game? As the release date is quite near now. I'm not sure when they send the disc for golden.. remember the game will have simultaneous release for consoles as well?


Edited by Archaven, 16 February 2018 - 07:06 AM.


#24
Night Stalker

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remember the game will have simultaneous release for consoles as well?


The console versions of the game is set to be released some time in Q4 of this year, and the port will be outsourced to Red Cerberus.

Edited by Night Stalker, 17 February 2018 - 11:25 AM.

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#25
CottonWolf

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Reading the feedback from veterans of the first game has me *really* worried. It seems that the designer has 0 idea what they were doing? I was quite fortunate that i waited more than a year after first PoE released and only to enjoy in it's optimized and balanced state. Seems like i will have to repeat the same for Deadfire. I'm not sure if there's any simplee fix can change the state of the game? As the release date is quite near now. I'm not sure when they send the disc for golden.. remember the game will have simultaneous release for consoles as well?

 

The console release isn't till winter and Obsidian aren't doing it. They can bugfix up until and past release with no worries about discs being pressed. (Though there are, of course, physical PC releases coming.)



#26
AndreaColombo

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Best
It's pretty, except for hair

 

and beards.

Seriously, beards as they are now look like placeholders. Only a teenager's growing for the first time would look that patchy and irregular.



#27
JFutral

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I have nothing to really add. Some of it is hard to judge since the beta is such a deliberately limited experience. But in terms of mechanics and what is currently known about the game with the beta, I agree with most of what everyone has already written.

 

I actually dug the Might vs Strength thing in PoE I. I liked that Might didn't HAVE to mean physical strength. But, okay. The change isn't a deal breaker.

 

I would like an 18 stat to actually have a stronger effect. Where I think diminishing returns should start to set in is as one get's higher than 18. A nice "hockey stick" curve of benefits as you get to 18 and an inverted hockey stick as you go past 18. [eta: I mean it's not like I can keep rolling until I get all 18s anyway. You have balanced that out by giving a limited number of points available with limited chances to add more depending on race. After that it is a dependent on gear and inns]

 

I don't want to see imposed level caps. But if you really don't want people to advance beyond a certain level before expansions, then just don't offer as many experience points. Or make certain choice paths exclusive. I admit to my problem of being a "completionist". I've tried seeking help for it, but it is a hard monkey to get off my back.

 

I hope the performance of the finished game is better than the beta. If how the beta performs on my computer now is indicative of how the release will perform, I'm pretty screwed.

 

I am looking forward to the release of the full game.

 

Joe


Edited by JFutral, 16 February 2018 - 09:12 AM.


#28
KaineParker

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Best
It's pretty, except for hair

 
and beards.

Seriously, beards as they are now look like placeholders. Only a teenager's growing for the first time would look that patchy and irregular.
I could grow a full beard as a teenager, don't insult my high school beard by comparing it to Deadfire beta beards.
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#29
Cdiaz

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Thanks a lot everyone! We definitely appreciate the feedback and if you had to repeat yourselves here from other posts I thank you for taking the time to get your thoughts out again! Please keep them coming :)

 

As far as things I will try to do, I did notice the worry for posts on other sites as opposed to here. I will definitely try to ensure we are updated on our forums with information that can be gathered from other sites as Josh and other travel around and get interviewed :) I apologize for letting you guys down thus far! I will do my best to step it up. If you do see something somewhere else that isn't here, shoot me a line.

 

You all the best and you know it,

 

-Caleb


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#30
demeisen

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+ The artwork, the world building, the writing, it's astonishingly lovely.  Pillars is a top tier RPG world, and I think Obsidian are masters of that craft, second to no other studio.  Whoever is doing all that stuff... I'm a little bit in awe.

 

- What others have said about caster problems, loss of long term resources, etc.  E.g:

 


Casters in dnd-style games are usually resource-management types of characters, and that's what makes them so damn fun to play - rationing the gadgets you have in your toolbelt, gauging encounters, saving your resources and going all-out in a boss fight...the per-rest spells make "easy" encounters mentally engaging when you try to figure out the most efficient use of your spells

 

Oh wow do I ever agree with LampStaple.  I feel like that core aspect of the RPG experience is being eroded to appease the "action RPG" crowd.  And as DexGames said:

 

I used to think before using a Spells, now I just spam, Fights after Fights.
 
Those two posters (and others too) identified the root cause of some of the problems, IMO.  That's not a balance tweak, it's a core change to the nature of the classes.  Casters were always my fav to play in RPGs for the reasons LampStaple and DexGames get to: they were about planning, rationing, efficiency, breaking out the most powerful toys only when things got dire.  Being forced to improvise when your fav spells are gone, and you are left with a few weirder ones in a tough situation.  See what LampStaple said above about even the "easy" encounters being mentally engaging.  While that's not 100% gone in DF, the game has moved the wrong way.  As several up-thread have said also... it's just not as much fun now.  Balance tweaks might help a little there, but it's not the core of the problem.
 
RPGs for me are about journeys, not one-off fights.  I don't want the game to woosh my health bars right back up (even if there's a bolted on injury system).  I don't want it to give me all my spells back so I can spam them again in the next room.
 
I will still play the game, because of how astonishingly immersive and beautiful the Pillars world is.  But it'll be bittersweet, I admit.  It absolutely nails one thing I want (an immersive world), while abandoning another.  My hope lies in a future community mod to restore long term dynamics, and rebalance accordingly.

Edited by demeisen, 16 February 2018 - 11:10 AM.

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#31
IndiraLightfoot

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Another bad:

 

Alright, I haven't seen this mentioned by anyone, so this may come out a bit leftfield:

I have a bit of a hard time finding and using the talents of each character in my party that I select. :unsure:

 

What I'd love to see is some quickbar á la NWN2, where I can place any talents or skills or whatever I use often.

Then I always have the most frequently used stuff at my finger tips as I select a specific character.


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#32
Wormerine

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Another bad:

 

Alright, I haven't seen this mentioned by anyone, so this may come out a bit leftfield:

I have a bit of a hard time finding and using the talents of each character in my party that I select. :unsure:

 

What I'd love to see is some quickbar á la NWN2, where I can place any talents or skills or whatever I use often.

Then I always have the most frequently used stuff at my finger tips as I select a specific character.

key shortcuts are still in (hover over desired skill and press shortcut like "Q"). They will shop up right above the main bar.



#33
theBalthazar

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I don't want it to give me all my spells back so I can spam them again in the next room.

 

 

You have already a limit (class ressources). Contrary to Tyranny for exemple.

 

But now, it is more strategic because you can use all your spells for each battle, each new situation.

 

Problem is more full list of spells for casters (druid/priest) which has been removed. This limits possibilities.


Edited by theBalthazar, 16 February 2018 - 11:36 AM.


#34
DexGames

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I don't want it to give me all my spells back so I can spam them again in the next room.

 

 

You have already a limit (class ressources). Contrary to Tyranny for exemple.

 

But now, it is more strategic because you can use all your spells for each battle, each new situation.

 

Problem is more full list of spells for casters (druid/priest) which has been removed. This limits possibilities.

 

 

:blink:, Maybe I'm misreading this but these lines seem full of Contradictions.

  • How can it be more strategic to spam every spells in every fights, versus, having to think twice before using one that you may need in the next fight ? You know, that One very specific Spell, you wish you didn't use, because you really need it this time ?

I'm sorry but "spamming every spell you have, like no brain, just because you can"... Cause they will all be available in the next fight anyway, is less Strategic than having to think twice before taking any Action you might regret afterward. 

  • How a Full List of Spells can be more limiting, versus having 2, [Max 3] Spells only to use ? I mean, it's literraly written : 2-3 Spells Max are more limiting than a Full List of Spells, no ?  :ermm:

It's like you're mixing everything up, and then taking all of it upside down. Or I really don't understand you're way of thinking.

I mean no offense of course.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Demeisen & LampStaple's approach is the correct one for me here. And to be honest, I could not describe it better than what they did here.


Edited by DexGames, 16 February 2018 - 12:54 PM.

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#35
anfoglia

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Best

 

+ Improved reactivity: even in this relatively small area of the game, there are a wide range of dialogue options based on race, origin, class, and skills. This is tremendously encouraging.

 

+ AI scripting: I admit that this was not a priority for me during the crowdfunding campaign, but it's a very cool feature, and I've enjoyed my experiments with it. I can't wait for someone to send me improvements on my garbage scripts.

 

+ Subclasses: these are fun, and I appreciate Obsidian giving multiple options for every class.

 

Worst

 

- Rules communication: Taking a step back, the team deserves credit for how much information it does communicate in a clear and visually attractive fashion. But the biggest thing nagging me through my beta playthroughs (from the character creation menu on through ship encounters) is missing information about what certain choices will do. For example, and we've had a few threads on this, the proficiency screen doesn't allow you to see any of the weapons' parameters (speed, base damage, damage type, etc.). The level-up screen isn't clear about which abilities will stack. Naval combat has this whole "advantage" mechanic without explaining how it works.

 

- Penetration: changes since the beta's release have brought this to a more comfortable place, where I at least can do something other than stack penetration. But I don't think the system is either clearer or more fun than the one it replaced.

 

Spell selection: I actually don't mind the longer casting times (particularly if you all are going to be refunding canceled spells), but right now wizards aren't much fun for me because their spell selection feels constrained. I'm also not wild about the new grimoire mechanic, which adds clutter and busywork to the wizard's life for a pretty limited return. I think I'd prefer a system where a wizard could still copy spells, but either her power level or the grimoire itself influenced the total "weight" of spells she could keep in her grimoire at once, with higher-tier spells costing more than lower-tier ones. 

 

Weapon proficiency: I don't really understand what this system is accomplishing. The modals are either boring or bad, so the only time I feel good about getting a new proficiency is when I've got a separate ability (like the fighter's) that gives bonuses with proficient weapons. It's just not a choice that feels interesting on the merits or as a statement of character identity.

 

EDIT: It looks like Josh just discussed some of the system's goals on tumblr: https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/

 

One goal, according to Josh, was to allow players to associate skill with a particular weapon type with their character(s). I don't think this is working all that well at the moment. Most characters get so many proficient weapons, with so little effect, that it doesn't feel to me like, "yeah, this cipher's trained with a flail and can do better than most with a flail." Increasing the rate of proficiency gain (from 1/4 levels to 1/3 levels) is only going to make this problem worse.

 

A second goal was to "move most/all of the weapon-based talent modals to proficiencies, with the focus on the modals being situational rather than "turn on and leave on." I'm afraid the first part is more a description of what the system does than an explanation of why the designers would want to do it.

 

A third goal was to avoid discouraging players from using non-proficient weapons. This is naturally in tension with goal number one. Obsidian has attempted to resolve the tension by making proficiency bonuses situational, but right now the system seems to be in a place where the bonuses aren't interesting enough for to feel like a meaningful character choice but the mere existence of the proficiency mechanic is still driving people to stick with proficient weapons. Question: if you're going to be handing out tons of weapon proficiencies, then why is it so important that players not feel discouraged from using non-proficient weapons?

 

- Dialogue icons: Sorry to be annoying on this point (last time I'll bring it up, promise!), but I don't like the tiny icons replacing bracketed text (e.g., [rational] or [benevolent]) to indicate a particular reputation, skill, or background is associated with a dialogue option. Several of the icons are not obvious. Is a dove diplomacy or benevolence? Is a human head insight or intelligence? The tooltips resolve any initial confusion, and I guess over time players will just learn the icons. But is the extra text space that valuable?

 

Otherwise

 

Multiclassing is pretty fun at the moment, even if I prefer a more class-less direction. I'm neutral so far on the Might change.


Edited by anfoglia, 17 February 2018 - 06:46 AM.

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#36
Wormerine

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Casters in dnd-style games are usually resource-management types of characters, and that's what makes them so damn fun to play - rationing the gadgets you have in your toolbelt, gauging encounters, saving your resources and going all-out in a boss fight...the per-rest spells make "easy" encounters mentally engaging when you try to figure out the most efficient use of your spells

 

I used to think before using a Spells, now I just spam, Fights after Fights.

 

Really. Old casters made easy encounters mentally engaging. By spamming autoattack? In IE and PoE there was one, and only one decision to make: "can I win current fight without using spells" - and in most cases the answer was "yes". PoE already improved over IE as casters didn't just stand around missing sling shots, but: "mentally engaging"? pffff.

 

Resources could be recovered with no trouble (I don't think I ever had to abandon dungeon to get supplies) so there was no resource management. It is hardly a resource management if you can regain all spent resources by pressing a button. The only real resource management was happening thoughout single engagements only - curiously the same as it is now. It is as if Obs looked at game mechanics PoE actually had, and fleshed them out more, instead of keeping a pretence of bigger economy. How one can claim that new system is less "mentally engaging" because you are encouraged to use tools at your disposal instead of spamming autoattack is beyond my understanding. 

Current system has just as much resource management as previous games had, except it is happening in every encounter, instead of every 10 encounters. It's not about "do I cast a spell" but "what spells do I cast". While previously you would go ham during one fight, now you have to select spells which will help your situation best. 

Maybe creating genuine resource management using old system would be better received by many long time players - maybe having to complete dungeons in one go, or something like that. Than I again, I feel that if players actually had to conserve spells with potential consequences I am willing to bet that there would be a push back as well.


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#37
mrmonocle

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best:

1. visuals
2. multiclassing and subclassing
3. skill and ability trees revamp.

worst:
1. portraits - should be replaced with 3d models since they are a lot better than in PoE1.
2. wizard school restrictions - too taxing since wizard can't learn all spells as in PoE1.
3. weapon modals - penalties are too heavy.

In general get rid of the penalty driven approach! It only frustrates since it's super hard to evaluate how strong the penalty is and you end up discarding the modals even if they are not as bad.

#38
demeisen

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Resources could be recovered with no trouble (I don't think I ever had to abandon dungeon to get supplies) so there was no resource management.

 

It is hardly a Maybe creating genuine resource management using old system would be better received by many long time players - maybe having to complete dungeons in one go, or something like that. Than I again, I feel that if players actually had to conserve spells with potential consequences I am willing to bet that there would be a push back as well.

 

 

True, but thing is, POE1 could be easily played in the spirit of resource constraints by treating its soft constraints as hard ones.  Then it is more strategic to think about how to handle an extended series of encounters, than just a single one, like a whole chess game is more strategic than just the opening few moves.

 

The DF system doesn't really allow for that.  It forces spells and health back after every fight, so it can't easily be played in a resource constrained style the way POE1 could by treating soft caps as hard ones.  The unit of tactical consideration has simply shrunk and is now (aside from minor factors) a single fight.  I think that's the objection, and why we don't find the DF system as fun.  There is less long term thinking.  You are insulated from the future consequences of your choices by all the resource regen the game heaps upon you, wanted or not.  Thing is, we liked planning for a whole outing, to survive a trip into a dangerous dungeon and back with nothing more than what we started out with.  When you keep giving us new resources, that satisfaction evaporates.

 

I'd certainly like the solution you propose in your second paragraph I quoted above.  POE1:WM had that in a few places, and they were (IMO) the most fun parts of the game to play through, because they forced you to try to play well, even on the fights you were certain to win.  The small fights were were part of a larger picture.  It's that larger picture which is greatly reduced now, in a way I can't do much about with my own local "house rules".

 

I'm still hoping Obsidian would consider a new-game switch to switch off per-fight regeneration, and enable the former style of casters and per-rest melee resources.  Certainly many people do like being given things back each and every fight, so it's more balance work, but both camps could have their preferred style.



#39
acbatchelor

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I highly support the new per-encounter spell system. Something that I always hated with IE games or POE was the per-rest spells. I would end up using auto-attack instead of using spells in nearly every battle. It made wizards not very fun. I've always believed that if you made spells and abilities per-encounter and had regenerating health, that you could balanced the game around each encounter rather than a whole map or dungeon. Then you wouldn't have trash mobs everywhere.

 

If you do decide to change this system, then I would do a method similar to ciphers. Have a resource pool (like maybe mana?) and have the resource regenerate over time. This would still allow casting spells without worrying about running out of casts later while limiting how much you can cast now.

 

Also, I agree with theBalthazar on weapon proficiency. I like to specialize in just 1 or 2 (maybe 3) weapons per character. The proficiencies should have multiple levels or ranks per weapon. Additional ranks in each proficiency can increase the bonus and lower the penalty. 


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#40
MortyTheGobbo

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The "larger picture" of per-rest spells mostly consisted of trying to win an encounter without spells, reloading if it failed and trying it again with spells. If you knew what you were doing, spellcasters had plenty of ways to contribute without casting spells... while also having the option to nuke an encounter by dropping them.

 

I can get behind the desire for more long-term attrition of resources, but per-rest spells are just a terrible way of doing that. Particularly since whatever tactical decisions they enable evaporate on a replay, or after reloading. An inexperienced player will agonize over how to ration their spells and an experienced one will know exactly when to drop them and which ones, trivializing many encounters. There's a reason Pillars had a very sudden shift from "I struggle with each encounter" to "I'm a destroyer of worlds". So once again, per-rest spells just introduce extremes.

 

Then there's the way powerful per-rest spells make enemy spellcasters by far the most dangerous enemies, seeing as they can drop all those powerful spells on our heads without worrying about later fights. And, of course, how it made tactics revolve around spellcasters in general. Not to the degree D&D-based games have it, obviously, but uncomfortably close.


Edited by MortyTheGobbo, 16 February 2018 - 04:40 PM.

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