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Wormerine

Ship to ship combat

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They should have released the ship combat earlier because I think it's too late to give a lot of feedback now. Two months is not enough time to make a lot of advancement to the ship combat.  I guess it's a good idea for them to just make an instant board option to appease the people who don't like the combat.

 

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They should have released the ship combat earlier because I think it's too late to give a lot of feedback now. Two months is not enough time to make a lot of advancement to the ship combat.  I guess it's a good idea for them to just make an instant board option to appease the people who don't like the combat.

 

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+1


I see the dreams so marvelously sad

 

The creeks of land so solid and encrusted

 

Where wave and tide against the shore is busted

 

While chanting by the moonlit twilight's bed

 

trees (of Twin Elms) could use more of Magran's touch © Durance

 

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Unless they design a totally differnt game, I don't see how this can be super exciting in a scripted interaction way. Just to be clear, though: I'm with Obsidian in this; I don't expect/demand of them to create a seperate complicated minigame to please Pirates! fans.

I don’t think this element of a game needs much more work - it received much more dedicated UI and systems than I ever dreamed of. I don’t think he combat needs more systems, but to give existing ones a tiny bit of depth.

 

I think the idea is to have a bit of a chess match with your enemy - try to be outside range when enemy shoots/do a full sail for better evasion and attack him when he is vonourable. Seems legit. However here are problem and suggestions:

 

1) Right now, things like wind or finer degrees of movement for straining, would just add to teidiousness, rather than fun. I could see an addition of wind as a “advantage” solver. Right now “advantage” seems random, or based on your captain level. How about random wind direction in every round, and if you end up adjusting to it (having it blowing from behind - it know it’s not how it works), you get advantage bonus for the next round.

 

2) Right now it doesn’t matter what direction your ship is facing an enemy - chances to get hit are the same. That makes facing your enemy with bow/stern side completely useless unless you flee or charge your enemy.

 

3) doing a Jibe (180D turn) has not penelties and always works. With 1 turn reload, ship2ship combat comes down to hold (for accuracy), shoot, jibe, hold, shoot, jibe, hold etc. Anything else is a waste of time as you can’t avoid enemy ship, and evasion is minimal making super aggressive play the only way to go,

 

4) full and half sail don’t work properly. The tooltip says you get -50% for low deckhand crew, but tooltips seem also broken. Whatever the problem is: full sail and half sail are currently the same thing. They give you same evasion, they move you the same distance. I assume that’s a bug. Right now using “sail” is only useful when fleeing combat and again, it comes down to: halfsail, halfsail, stop and repeat.

 

5) there is no way to sail around an enemy (change his position regarding to yours). That’s a big problem - he is about to ready to fire - nothing you can do. Movement evasion bonus are minimal, no difference in how you are positioned. Full sail should allow you to move away from an enemy line of fire.

 

6) I don’t think we need different types of ammo - different cannon types will do - but we need more sidegrades than linear upgrades. Linear upgrades are ok, but more variety of guns is needed - differing in range, damage, reload time, possibly requires crew to operate.

 

EDIT. That somewhat might be a case already. While currently implimented round ammo cannons seem to be atraight upgrades (bigger damage, bigger range), their minimum range also gets bigger (with min, 400m for the “best” cannon) making them useless in close range - a weapon equipped fully with “weaker” cannons could either move closer and use accuriacy bonus, or charge enemy without much fear of being hit. A mix of cannons might a good choice for versatile ranges, or dancing around preferred range for advantage - however, long range fight also makes it easier for enemy to escape.

 

7) automated commands for boarding and fleeing estimating your chances based on your damage and speed for quick battle resolution.

 

I don’t think those are massive additions. Giving different evasion properties to different sides and making jibe emergency use only, should give some depth to positioning. Being able to once per round sail around enemy would give and option to get away from firing range and take a shot at harder to hit side, or opposite - you could fullsail into enemy broad side with evasion bonus and shot at him next round. Different cannons would be useful in different ranges, encouraging moving around in distance depending on your enemy equipment. I really think that would do it. Oh and I do like adding wind for “advantage” bonus resolver - it might encourage taking risky position for a better next round. If both ships are facing than its 50-50.

Edited by Wormerine
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They should have released the ship combat earlier because I think it's too late to give a lot of feedback now. Two months is not enough time to make a lot of advancement to the ship combat.  I guess it's a good idea for them to just make an instant board option to appease the people who don't like the combat.

 

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Yeah. I believe if they just had the board option as the only for ship to ship combat, most would be happy enough. Hopefully they'd give the option to insta-board.

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Yes 2 month is too short for deep modifications...

 

In this case, it is better to abandon regular battle in sea, and marginalize it to a few interresting phases.

 

Actually, don't 'work' for me (pleasure / Fun is not here), honestly.

 

At worse, Obsidian can use an already known sure value :

 

https://youtu.be/piobJmZY8To?t=22s

(troll)

 

SPLUSH !! SPLUSH !! BOOM !!

Edited by theBalthazar

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Uh, can't say I'm a fan of this ship combat system. It's a boring repetitive slog. There should be an option to auto resolve these battles. And I don't like being penalized for taking my time and wanting to explore every nook and cranny in an rpg - ship's supplies and maintenance is way too big of a money sink, especially considering that later we'll be able to buy new ships and ship upgrades which will cost a ton too I presume. 

 

P.S. I hated spirit eater mechanic in NWN2:MotB too, too much pressure.

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Majora's Mask / NWN 2 Mask of the betrayer. AKA loss of something, overtime.

 

Pressure system have a charm, but often, more on the second playthrough.

 

The first you are totally pressurized. Strong emotion, but risk of to scar a part of public.

 

Honestly, Pillars is already a niche game. So, perhaps avoid that, indeed : p

Edited by theBalthazar

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Uh, can't say I'm a fan of this ship combat system. It's a boring repetitive slog. There should be an option to auto resolve these battles. And I don't like being penalized for taking my time and wanting to explore every nook and cranny in an rpg - ship's supplies and maintenance is way too big of a money sink, especially considering that later we'll be able to buy new ships and ship upgrades which will cost a ton too I presume. 

 

P.S. I hated spirit eater mechanic in NWN2:MotB too, too much pressure.

 

How do you know it is too much of a money sink? If there is one thing the beta can't simulate then it is a realistic economic situation. We don't know how much money the player really has. Considering all crpgs I played I was swimming in money half way through, I don't assume that suddenly doing side content and exploring will cost you more money than you'll find.

 

If anything tying exploring and traveling to your funds makes exploration much more natural, as the ideal way is going from port to port. I expect restrictions loosen up naturally when you get more money, better ships and crew in later stages of the game.

 

If it wasn't for a system like this people would just start in the top left corner and like a lawn mower farm up the entire world's content. Developers need tools to keep players somewhat on track during the more story driven parts of the game 

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It's an original mechanic so I'm all for it even if it becomes a bit tedious later on. A ship fighting a ship is/was often a predetermined matter depending only on speed and cannons, there is no sneaking up/spells/abilities (although, maybe unique ship items?) on an enemy. Best way for the player to win against a superior enemy seems to get into boarding where you can use all those things you'll probably stand out for with a better equipped team. If the enemy is vastly superior he should be able to sink you with ease and rightly so. But I seriously hope there will be some room to wiggle with tactical choices where you can make an impossible fight into a only nearly deadly one (also the other way around: easy fight but with already damaged ship into a very hard one)

 

The only thing I would seriously recommend is a flee button for at least some (random encounter) fights.

 

I seriously hope they don't water it down, especially the ship demands that does so much for immersion (maybe make it easier on lower difficulty levels? or even better yet, two difficulty sliders: one for regular fights and one for naval realism)

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Have you understood what is "report to" doing?

Overall the system looks a bit simplified, still I guess Obs can make certain scripts for different ships, so it will be not similar.


Done this with Moon Godlike Wizard

q22yrpP.png

Perebor steam

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2) Right now it doesn’t matter what direction your ship is facing an enemy - chances to get hit are the same. That makes facing your enemy with bow/stern side completely useless unless you flee or charge your enemy.

 

 

I don't think this is the case; if you shoot a perpendicular enemy you sometimes get "raking" hits which seem to do more damage.

 

You're right that they can get it release-ready with a few tweaks. I'd still like more depth to the minigame -- there's a lot of potential there that's just being left on the table -- but they could tackle things like wind and ammo in a later patch. Hell, I wouldn't really mind an expanded ship combat DLC if they really got in depth with it. 

 

Double barrelled "chain shot" cannons really bug me though. They're an immersion breaker. That may be a me problem not an everyone else problem though.

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Have you understood what is "report to" doing?

"Report to stations!" 

 

You can move crew members around - of someone get wounded you need to move them to be treated (bottom right corner) and replace them with someone from reserve (the same bottom right corner). You also need to use it to assign people to fix "events" like fire, loose cargo etc. which can happen upon being hit.

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I think you're all pretty harsh on this...

It does need improvements for sure, but you're almost asking for a Game in the Game.

 

What I'd do like to see is that :

  • Ship to Ship doesn't necessarily involves combat. I think they should see this in a more scenarized way. Like it's the case with the Derelect Ship.
  • Ghost Ship that needs Investigations : Using Players Skill to unfold the Scripted Interactions in Various ways, [i hope there's more of that].
  • Merchant Ship : [itinerant Commerce], the Ship Captain's is a d*ck, you have to convice him to sell you some valuable goods. [Diplomacy, Bluff, Etc]
  • Vailian Armada doing a Blocus, Convince them to let you pass.

So on & so forth, I just hope there's more than :

  • 76 Ship to Ship "Combat Only" & 5 Derelict Ship "Sink or Leave".
  • Just a little more background situations & story involved in it.

If there's that, I'm okay with this System & to do, from time to time, the current Ship to Ship Combat.

it only needs to not be overly present at every corner you come accross.

 

All I'm saying is that some Ship to Ship Combat, as it is now, is Ok to deal with & cool, [with some improvements], if there's more uniqueness to each one of them,

[Text, Scenarii & Outcome].

 

Finding Enemy Survivors at sea after the fight, floating in a barrel. Choose what to do with them.

[The Ennemy Captain is a "Wanted Man", either you kill him, let him drown, enprison him, send him back to a faction or another for a Reward, Etc]

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

EDIT : Ok I say "Improvements" everywhere but don't give any insights to what I mean.

So to me, the First thing to be addressed is "Visualization" & more "Scripted Style Drawings" on the right panel :

  • I think it needs 5 or 7 more Drawings, to visually represent what's hapenning between "My Ship" in relation to the "Ennemy Ship".

For Instance, you see that Wallpaper where you see Edèr smoking is pipe at the bow of the boat with Neketaka on the Horizon?

Change Edèr with another Character, say a Crew Member or even a drawing representation of the Watcher.

  • Do 4 POV Drawings, from the Bow, Port, Starboard & Front side of the Boat, where I can see visually the "Point of View" in which I'm seeing the "Ennemy Ship".
  • Use the Same Drawings & Play with the "Zoom", to convey the sense of Distance as I'm getting closer & closer. [it's already the case but needs more of it]

When it is behind my Boat :

  • The Right Panel should show me a Drawing Representation of the Watcher, [Or Whoever that'd be], at the back of his Ship looking the "Ennemy Ship". [Let say you could see the Helm for Exemple]
  • Depict the "V Shape" of the Front of the Boat to show me that I'm actually watching the Ennemy Ship from the Tip of the Boat.
  • It's tricky for Left & Right, as it could be the same but, I know you can come up with something !

Another thing, when I was talking about Scenarii, Outcomes & Stuff :

  • Don't rely so much on Dice Rolls, Let me developp :
  • "You Fire all your Cannons at once, & by pure hazard, one of the Boulder decapitate the Ennemy Captain, fear starts growing within the ranks of their Crew, prevated from their Captain, they decide to Surrender. What will you do with their life ?

Well, Remember the Stronghold where we'd send our Companions on Random Adventures ? That's the same :

  • I'm gonna make them work for me, & tell them to wander around the seas looking for Goods, they can keep all the money, but Every Single piece of Equipment they find remains to me. That's the Deal to let them stay alive. [Don't make us do this manually, or maybe you can but, I'd rather want some "Periodical Messages" :
  • "The Crew from the 'Destiny' just reports they've gathered Rare Equipements for you to check on, Rendez-vous in Neketaka's Port District to collect them".
  • Then, they're go back on Duty for me, automatically.

That's "One Exemple", I insist that there can't be 26 Ships I can decide to hire. Sometimes the outcome should not be what I've expected.

I guess it all comes back to "Uniqueness".

 

The amount of work already done is absolutely incredible, though. You should all at least give Credits to that, I do now so Good F**king Job Obsidianites for making it this far, I believe you're on the right path to make it awesome.

 

With some smart decisions & design, it could happen that you can make it even more better just by "Narrative Approach". Rather than saying

"It Sucks" & remaking everything you've made so far, so keep developping it from what you do best, "The Narrative", which will not involve additionnal Months/Years of developpement & ressources to "Rework" it all from the ground up. Keep thinking !

Edited by DexGames
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@DexGames It seems like they are developing minigame combat system to me. I was expecting "sea combat" to me more of a scripted scenario before boarding. 

I am not sure what takes more work at this stage - improving relatively simple combat system or handcrafting bunch of unique encounters. We will see.

Derelict ship SI was really cool.

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I think you're all pretty harsh on this...

It does need improvements for sure, but you're almost asking for a Game in the Game.

 

 

OK.

Time to be honnest.

 

Frankly, there is few elements interresting. 'Repport!' section give me the impression to have a.... potential. All the maneuvers, if they are better brought in, too.

 

The main problem for me is the lack of dynamism.

 

Lack of interrection between eventual STATS of crew, diversity of action each turn. The tension.

 

The first time will be amusing, but quickly will be boring.

 

What is missing is... a fun chalenge with a real strategy.

 

A card system like gwent would be cool. Each member of the crew = stats + Special ability. You play one card each turn. Etc.

 

You gain card via rewards of few quest etc.

 

Create an empathic bond with your ship. RPG = Evolution. Customize your approach with more strategies (for exemple start deck etc.)

Edited by theBalthazar

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I think you're all pretty harsh on this...

It does need improvements for sure, but you're almost asking for a Game in the Game.

 

I wasn't. I wasn't expecting anything this detailed. But I just think it's fallen in a really unfortunate position. They've put too much work into it to want it to be really minor and rare, but not enough that it isn't repetative and rote. I really liked the derelict ship thingy, but the actual combat doesn't feel deep enough to not drag. Maybe the addition of outside factors like ship customisation and purchasing different weaponry will offset that, but we can't do that yet, so I don't know. As it is, I want to be able to do more things that actually feel like they have an effect on the combat. Basically, I'm here:

 

 

 

They should have released the ship combat earlier because I think it's too late to give a lot of feedback now. Two months is not enough time to make a lot of advancement to the ship combat.  I guess it's a good idea for them to just make an instant board option to appease the people who don't like the combat.

 

I'd like to be wrong though!

Edited by CottonWolf
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I've only tried it a couple of times but I enjoyed it, it's very different to what I expected. I do think it goes on a bit long though I suppose if you get in a good position your cannons are more likely to hit and do more damage but the wind didn't have a pattern I could see. I also agree that there should be more options besides combat as well as after combat as others have said but there may well be. 

 

It does seem a bit costly but then so was the stronghold in the first game and that ended up being easily managed anyway. At least this is a lot better than getting a notification about being attacked and having to go back to the keep for the fight and or pay for the damage and lost hirelings. 

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They've put too much work into it to want it to be really minor and rare, but not enough that it isn't repetative and rote

 

 

Never give the impression your mini-game isn't sufficient in himself. To see it as little as possible is not a sign of success...

 

I prefer a good mini-game that I am going to look for myself, because he is good.

 

Deadfire archipelago.

 

Sea.

 

Ships.

 

Central to the game sadly : p

Edited by theBalthazar

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That's so unrealistic Bhaltazar, man you can't say :

  • "Just make a Witcher 3 Card Game ! It's simple ! I mean, it's only... Cards right ?"

You're talking about a ~$81M Game VS a ~$5 to $6M Budget for Deadfire.

The Witcher 3 had a Production Time of three & a half years, a team of 1500 People of which 240 In-House Developpers at CDProject Red !

 

Lol, Obsidian probably only had ~75 Persons working on Deadfire : https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91197-so-who-is-working-on-the-game/

If you think it's easy & that CDProject made the Gwent as awesome as it is "Just like that", because it's only "A Mini-Game", I sincerely think you're mistaken or should revise your position.

Edited by DexGames
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Sadly, what makes gwent's salt is not graphics, far from it.

 

It is his awsome concept. it's within the reach of Obsidian. You create 'concept cards' interractions betweens them, each turn. Hype +100. No need to spend 1 million dollars to this. Only a good feeling of mini-game.

 

Almost surface skin without 3D models... If you cannot create an assassin creed 4 with beautiful 3d models, card game is a cheap and interresting approach when you aren't triple A.

 

It does not need much more for it to be a little more complex (in the good sense of the word).

 

If not, you will create this.... : p

 

Textual action + no decision. Zero interrest. Zero.

Edited by theBalthazar

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Card Game >>> Graphics ?

Did I mentionned Graphics ? Far from it.

:lol:

 

People, Time & Ressources is what is required to make what you want happen.

Just cut CDProject's Productions Ressources, Time & People, to something similar as Deadfire, then your Gwent would be :

  • Find & Collect Cards all over the World !  :thumbsup:

No Mini-Game, just Collectibles, as you said : Zero Interest.

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2) Since you can move once and turn twice, have the first turn be a "tack port / tack starboard" every round that moves you forward half-distance and half-rotates you port/starboard (i.e., 45 degrees); if you pick "turn port/starboard" again you do a full 90 degree turn. Note that tack, turn, fire would then take a full round. Note also that you would be able to tack towards a ship directly upwind of you. 

You can move once (full sail) or twice (half sail) and you have different number of actions depending on (I guess) captain rank.

 

4) full and half sail don’t work properly. The tooltip says you get -50% for low deckhand crew, but tooltips seem also broken. Whatever the problem is: full sail and half sail are currently the same thing. They have you same evasion, they move you the same distance. I assume that’s a bug. Right now using “sail” is only useful when fleeing combat and again, it comes down to: halfsail, halfsail, stop and repeat.

 The tooltip is correct, with more experienced crew you can move 100 or 120 m.

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Card Game >>> Graphics ?

 

 

 

I never tell that.

 

I said. IF you havn't much dollars, card game is a cheap and interresting way TO REPRESENT and dress a confrontation.

 

Card or a sign or simply an item with characteristics if you prefer.

 

Like passive abilities if you prefer. No 3D model, no animation etc. Just a well organized technical game.

 

People, Time & Ressources is what is required to make what you want happen.

 

 

Obviously. But I speak of ideal solution. If we are less than that. OK. I can't do anything. I just give my opinion. If everybody love this mini-game, I'm happy. But for me it lacks complexity, finishing.

 

 

Just cut CDProject's Productions Ressources, Time & People, to something similar as Deadfire, then your Gwent would be :

  • Find & Collect Cards all over the World !   :thumbsup:

No Mini-Game, just Collectibles, as you said : Zero Interest.

 

 

No. You put a table, some inserts, even if it's less finished/detailled than the gwent of the witcher 3, there's way to make it more interesting than the mini-game of the actual beta. Easy.

No need of extrems means. The current visual is sufficient for exemple !...

 

It's the dynamics of the thing that is wrong, no means or dollars.

 

I view POTENTIAL in members of the crew for exemple.  The idea is there, just use it. With numbers. With more effects (+4 blabla, +1 one turn Suppress bad effect etc) ... There is potential ...

Edited by theBalthazar

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I like the PnP feel the combat has and I am glad they went with this style of scripted interaction with turns and didn't go instead for Sid Meier's pirates style real time combat which is a real drag. The artstyle and sound design is also very satisfying. It could use some increased strategic and tactical depth however in terms of equipment, movement, wind, angles and so on. 

Edited by FreeKaner
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You don't need a card-based system to improve on the knife-throwing game (ship combat is already better than knife throwing and still has plenty of room for improvement within the text-based approach). And I don't think cards would be on theme for how Deadfire handles physical events involving your characters.

 

It's really hard to judge Obsidian's concept for naval combat without seeing how it fits into the full game. If it's a neat extra thing you can do (or not do), then I think they're reasonably close to a good system. If, however, encounters are a regular part of exploring or you need to sink a lot of ships to get cool items and sidequests, then adding more tactical options (e.g., sidegrades to cannons/ammo; different sailing options that increase/decrease your odds of getting a wind advantage; hulls that ride higher/lower bringing weather/geography into play) becomes essential.

 

In any case, I'm not going to expect something as as robust as Gwent or other minigames people like as well as the game proper. There's obviously a lot of potential in naval combat (like Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, my mind drifts toward Patrick O'Brian novels), but I don't think Obsidian promised all that much here.

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