Weapon balance and comparision after 2/2/18 patch

[KDubya]

UPDATED FOR LATEST BETA PATCH

 

 

With the new changes to weapons how do they compare?

 

Two handed

 

• 0.7 attack and 3.0 second recovery ​4.0 second recovery

 

• Tier one damage 22 - 27, avg = 24.5 ​SAME AS BEFORE
  • Great Swords - dual damage
  • Pikes - increased reach
• Tier two damage 20 - 25, avg = 22.5 (8.1% less than tier one) SAME AS BEFORE
  • Quarterstaffs - increased reach and +5 accuracy
• Tier three damage 15 - 22, avg = 18.5 (24.5% less damage than tier one) ​SAME AS BEFORE
  • Poleax - dual damage and +2 penetration
  • Morningstar - dual damage and +2 penetration
  • Estoc - +2 penetration and +2 penetration (+4 total)

- Observation is that the tier three damage class weapons should actually be in the tier two class as they all have two extra abilities. 

 

​One handed slow 

 

• 0.7 attack, 3.0 second recovery​  4.0 second recovery

 

• Tier one damage 15 - 20, avg = 17.5  SAME AS BEFORE
  • Sword - dual damage 
  • Battle Axe - +20% critical damage
• Tier two damage 14 - 19, avg = 16.5 (5.7% less than tier one) SAME AS BEFORE
  • Sabre - +20% damage
• Tier three damage 14 - 18, avg =16 (8.6% less than tier one) SAME AS BEFORE
  • Spear - +5 accuracy
• Tier four damage 10 -14, avg = 12 (31.4% less than tier one) SAME AS BEFORE
  • mace -  +2 penetration
  • Warhammer - dual damage and +2 penetration

​- Observation is that Sabre, Spear, Sword and Mace should all do the same damage as they all have one ability. Warhammers should do one tier less due to having two abilities.

 

​One handed fast

 

• 0.5 attack and 2.0 second recovery   ​3.0 second recovery

 

• Tier one damage 11 - 15, avg = 13  SAME AS BEFORE
  • Clubs - +5 accuracy
  • Daggers - +5 accuracy
  • Rapier - +5 accuracy
  • Hatchet - +3 deflection
• Tier two damage 10 - 13, avg = 11.5 (11.5% less than tier one) SAME AS BEFORE
  • flail - 10% graze > hit
• Tier three damage 9 - 13, avg = 11 (15.4% less than tier one) SAME AS BEFORE
  • stiletto +2 penetration

​Observation - flails should be in tier one damage class, and 10% graze>hit is like an extra 1.25% damage so its pitiful. Stilettos should also be in tier one damage as they only have one ability.

 

​Damage per Second

• ​​Two handed tier one does 6.62 dps  ​5.21 dps and 5.27 dps Quarterstaffs
• One handed w/shield tier one does 4.73 dps ( 4.76 spear)  ​3.72 dps and 3.74 dps Spears
• Sabres w/shield do 5.35 dps ​4.21 dps
• One handed fast w/shield tier one does 5.2 dps (5.72 accurate) ​3.71 dps and 3.86 dps accurate
• dualwielding slow tier one does 7.95 dps (8.0 spear)​ 5.0 dps and 5.02 spears
• dualwielding Sabres do 9 dps   ​5.66 dps
• dualwielding fast tier one does 8.67 dps (9.54 accurate)   ​5.00 dps and 5.50 dps accurate
• Single weapon slow tier one does 5.86 dps (5.79 spear) ​4.62 dps and 4.56 Spears
• Single weapon fast tier one does 6.45 dps (6.97 accurate) ​ ​4.61 dps and 4.98 dps accurate
• Single weapon Sabre does 6.63 dps  ​5.22 dps
•  

*Single weapon style based on +12 accuracy with acc=deflection, 25% graze and 50% hit. So it effectively trades 12 misses for 12 crits at 125% damage for +24% average damage.

 

** accurate weapons effectively add 5 misses>crits at 125% damage so effectively +10% damage

 

DPS in ranked order

1. Dualwielding accurate fast weapons 9.54 dps
2. Dualwielding Sabres 9 dps
3. Dualwielding fast weapons 8.67 dps
4. Dualwielding spears 8.0 dps
5. Dualwielding slow 7.95 dps
6. Single wielding fast accurate 6.97 dps
7. Single wielding Sabre 6.63 dps
8. Two handed weapons 6.62 dps
9. Single wielding fast 6.45 dps
10. Single wielding slow 5.86 dps
11. Single wielding spear 5.79 dps
12. Fast accurate with shield 5.72 dps
13. Sabre with shield 5.35 dps
14. Fast with shield 5.2 dps
15. Spear with shield 4.76 dps
16. Slow with shield 4.73 dps

 

DPS in Ranked Order After latest Beta Patch 2/2/18

 

1. Dualwielding Sabres 5.66 DPS
2. Dualwielding Fast Accurate (Daggers, Clubs, Rapiers) 5.50 DPS
3. Quarterstaffs 5.27 DPS
4. Single wield Sabre 5.22 DPS
5. Two Handed Sword/Pike 5.22 DPS
6. Dualwielding Spears 5.02 DPS
7. Dualwielding Swords/Battle Ax 5.0 DPS
8. Dualwield Hatchets 5.0 DPS
9. Single wield accurate (clubs, daggers, rapiers) 4.98 dps
10. Single wield sword/battle ax 4.62 dps
11. Single wield hatchet 4.61 dps
12. Single wield spear 4.56 dps
13. Sabre with shield 4.21 dps
14. One hand fast accurate (club, dagger, rapier) with shield 3.86 dps
15. Spear with shield 3.74 dps
16.  sword/battleax with shield 3.72 dps
17. hatchet with shield 3.71 dps
18.  

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusion - 

• Two handed weapons still lag behind everything else unless you are getting close to zero recovery
• Fast accurate weapons are the damage kings for autoattacking
• Sabres are still the best choice if you also need primary or especially full attacks
• Two handed weapons are much better now
• ​Sabres are damage kings
• Dualwielding still tops but much closer to two handed
• ​Shield cost you between 25-35% damage output
• Warhammers and maces are bad damage choices, better to use stillettos with the same penetration
• Flails are another really bad damage output

 

[AndreaColombo]

Ah, even slower recovery times with less bonus to recovery from DW. I anticipate I'll enjoy this beta build a lot.

 

Estocs are still terribad, too.

[Madscientist]

good news: Different weapons are more balanced now. Its not like dual wielding anything is much better than any other option any more.

 

bad news: All recovery increased by 1 second. An extra slow mode in combat is not needed anymore, we have it all the time .

 

Are the different combat style talents ( dual, 2h, single) equally good or is one much better than the others?

[KDubya]

good news: Different weapons are more balanced now. Its not like dual wielding anything is much better than any other option any more.

 

bad news: All recovery increased by 1 second. An extra slow mode in combat is not needed anymore, we have it all the time .

 

Are the different combat style talents ( dual, 2h, single) equally good or is one much better than the others?

 

I'd agree that balance wise everything is pretty close, dual wielding is still best but not by the huge margin it had before. Choosing dual wield, two handed or single wield will all give roughly comparable damage outputs.

 

Fighter ability wise two weapon fighting is still good at +20% attack speed, and two handed style gets you +15% damage. The weapon and shield still gets you the +6 deflection and the big boost to reflex. Single weapon style is still a joke of a trap pick as converting a 20% of misses to grazes ends up adding 2.5% damage on average which is a bad joke.

[morhilane]

A new patch!

 

Looks like balance is better this time around. I do agree that single weapons looks a bit meh. Does the math to get those numbers account for the bonus accuracy tied to only holding one weapon (+12 acc)?

 

 

On paper, I like the slower weapon recovery. I will have to see what it does in game though.

[theBalthazar]

30 % of speed with dual wielding. (was 50 %)

 

30 % hit to crit for berserker. (was 50 %)

 

33 % of damage in area of effect (barbarian) (Was 5-9 raw damages)

 

30 % Bonus damage in lightning with monk. (Was 50 %)

 

30 % Bonus damage with Flame of devotion. (was 50 %)

 

25 % bonus damage for mule kick.

[dunehunter]

30 % of speed with dual wielding. (was 50 %)

 

30 % hit to crit for berserker. (was 50 %)

 

33 % of damage in area of effect (barbarian) (Was 5-9 raw damages)

 

30 % Bonus damage in lightning with monk. (Was 50 %)

 

30 % Bonus damage with Flame of devotion. (was 50 %)

 

25 % bonus damage for mule kick.

 

Wow so Carnage now do 33% of the damage you inflict on the main target?

[IndiraLightfoot]

Let's ask my barrage witch about that:

 

"Does it?"

"Peace, love and melting!!" *Said with wide pupils*

[theBalthazar]

Wow so Carnage now do 33% of the damage you inflict on the main target?

 

 

Yes, seemingly.

 

A good news. It is Far of 66 % of POE1, but I think it is better than 5-9 raw damages.

 

For 30 % fire damage of the Paladin, I think it is a good thing for multiclass (was crazy before), but a loss for solo.

 

Problem is : if you add speed with you paladin = win (multiclass). But Single classes doesn't have this possibility, so 50 % fire damage wasn't crazy for them.

 

I remember in POE1, 1.06 boost flame of devotion for this reason.

Edited February 2, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Nail]

So one handed sabre is a thing, crit based character should shred everything.

[theBalthazar]

Question : With additional boost (exceptinonal, unic items etc.) Sabre stay the most interresting ?

[dunehunter]

I tested it a bit, and no it doesn't inflict 33% of the damage u does to main target, it's 33% of the base weapon damage, so lash is not calculated, and the accuracy bonus doesn't include weapon enchant bonus.

[theBalthazar]

I tested it a bit, and no it doesn't inflict 33% of the damage u does to main target, it's 33% of the base weapon damage, so lash is not calculated, and the accuracy bonus doesn't include weapon enchant bonus.

 

 

 

Argh... Ok so it is perhaps even less interesting than before...

Edited February 2, 2018 by theBalthazar

[KDubya]

A new patch!

 

Looks like balance is better this time around. I do agree that single weapons looks a bit meh. Does the math to get those numbers account for the bonus accuracy tied to only holding one weapon (+12 acc)?

 

 

On paper, I like the slower weapon recovery. I will have to see what it does in game though.

 

Yes, the +5 accuracy is converted to +10% damage and the +12 accuracy is converted to +24% damage.

 

Its not a perfect system but it'll get you a rough comparison. With lots of additional damage adders from Strength and weapon quality and such the Sabre will drop a bit and the extra accuracy will get better, especially when you consider that the hard enemies will be the ones where more accuracy will be important.

[dunehunter]

The new recover time remind me of Bg1, where everybody is in low level and attack very slowly, even fighter will attack 2 times a round which is 6 second, and other classes attacks 1 times per 6 second, extremely slow!

 

I think I'm gonna make a Paladin/Ranger who abuses his pet, picking Vengeful Bonding and Behold the Martyr, so everytime the pet is knocked out, he can cast Behold the Martyr on the pet and get double speed bonus from Vengeful and Behold

Edited February 2, 2018 by dunehunter

[hilfazer]

Single weapon style is still a joke of a trap pick as converting a 20% of misses to grazes ends up adding 2.5% damage on average which is a bad joke.

My math gives me different result.

13% chance to miss * 20% = 2.6% of all attacks are misses converted to grazes.

Graze does 50% damage so 2.6% * 50% = 1.3% more damage.

 

 

It's not like 1H style is UP, it's badly designed. It has to be a bug because it was badly designed in vanilla PoE as well and Obs eventually replaced this bad design with a better one: hit to crit. Obsidian designers are too good to intentionally replace good design with a horrible one.

 

 

Of course Obs had to decrease attack speed of DW, not, for example, damage. Let's make thing closer to each other! Why diversify, it can be bad for balance! If everything becomes identical perfect balance will be achieved! Let's go in that direction!

[AndreaColombo]

Of course Obs had to decrease attack speed of DW, not, for example, damage. Let's make thing closer to each other! Why diversify, it can be bad for balance! If everything becomes identical perfect balance will be achieved! Let's go in that direction!

 

It's all part of the boredom masterplan. Let's take the most boring part of combat (i.e. watching your men sit through recovery time), make it longer, and ensure it can't be skipped by preventing 0-recovery builds. Now everybody must sit through the slow drag—with an attack speed system where a single penalty weighs more than your stacked bonuses to boot! Since you can't go melee with no armor... there you have it.

[KDubya]

For better penetration you have stillettos, estoc and warhammers.

 

Stillettos 11 average damage, 0.5 attack and 3 second recovery for 3.14 dps with shield, 3.89 dps single wield and 4.23 dps dual wielded. All with 7 penetration and piercing

 

Warhammers 12 average damage, 0.7 attack and 4 second recovery for 2.55 dps with shield, 2.81 dps single wield and 3.43 dps dual wielded. All with 7 penetration and crush/pierce

 

Estocs,morningstars and polax, 18.5 average damage, 0.7 attack and 4 second recovery for 3.93 dps with estocs at 9 penetration and pierce or Morningstar/polax at 7 penetration and crush/pierce or slash/crush.

 

Damage ranked is:

1. dual wield stillettos 4.23 dps
2. Estoc/Morningstar/polax 3.93 dps
3. stiletto single wield 3.89 dps
4. dual wield Warhammer 3.43 dps
5. stiletto with shield 3.14 dps
6. Warhammer single wield  2.81 dps
7. Warhammer with shield 2.55 dps

Conclusion:

• Warhammers are bad, maces are even worse as they hit just as badly as a Warhammer but only one damage type

[Boeroer]

I think Single Handed Style is still a ramnant of the first beta where we had no grazes but only misses - and the designers might have thought that 20% miss to graze is a good thing.

[KDubya]

 

Single weapon style is still a joke of a trap pick as converting a 20% of misses to grazes ends up adding 2.5% damage on average which is a bad joke.

My math gives me different result.

13% chance to miss * 20% = 2.6% of all attacks are misses converted to grazes.

Graze does 50% damage so 2.6% * 50% = 1.3% more damage.

 

 

It's not like 1H style is UP, it's badly designed. It has to be a bug because it was badly designed in vanilla PoE as well and Obs eventually replaced this bad design with a better one: hit to crit. Obsidian designers are too good to intentionally replace good design with a horrible one.

 

 

Of course Obs had to decrease attack speed of DW, not, for example, damage. Let's make thing closer to each other! Why diversify, it can be bad for balance! If everything becomes identical perfect balance will be achieved! Let's go in that direction!

 

 

So one handed style is even worse of a choice.

 

They had to do something about dualwielding. Before it was near 45% (9.54 vs 6.62) better dps wise compared to a two handed weapon. It made choosing dual wielding to be the easiest choice ever.

 

If they had jacked up the damage to two handers to bring them close to dualwielding then you'd still have the huge disparity between spell damage and melee. 

 

I'd like it if they made two handers better for high strength by doubling the strength bonus or something like that to have a clearer distinction between the weapons but we'll have to see what they do in the end.

[hilfazer]

If they had jacked up the damage to two handers to bring them close to dualwielding then you'd still have the huge disparity between spell damage and melee.

There won't be that disparity if DW is tuned down to other weapons styles by adding damage malus.

And if casters stop sucking but that's a different problem.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'd like it if they made two handers better for high strength by doubling the strength bonus or something like that to have a clearer distinction between the weapons but we'll have to see what they do in the end.

I think giving all 2 handers 2 more base penetration would be a better move, and it would be consistent with PoE where the appeal of 2 handers was they were better against high armor foes. I'd even lower base Pen for fast weapons by 1 for the sake of consistency and balance. I'd also go ahead and go back to one special ability per weapon with no separate tiers as well.

[hilfazer]

 

I'd like it if they made two handers better for high strength by doubling the strength bonus or something like that to have a clearer distinction between the weapons but we'll have to see what they do in the end.

I think giving all 2 handers 2 more base penetration would be a better move, and it would be consistent with PoE where the appeal of 2 handers was they were better against high armor foes. I'd even lower base Pen for fast weapons by 1 for the sake of consistency and balance. I'd also go ahead and go back to one special ability per weapon with no separate tiers as well.

 

I'd just go ahead and go back to DR

With improvements like % armor penetration.

[theBalthazar]

It is me or foes in the beta have much more HP ? It is an illusion or ?

 

Double crit at 70 = don't die : p

Edited February 2, 2018 by theBalthazar

[morhilane]

It is me or foes in the beta have much more HP ? It is an illusion or ?

 

Double crit at 70 = don't die : p

 

I don't think they have more hp than in POE1 (well not what I checked in beta 1), most enemies outside of level 1-2 critters have over 100 hp in the first game (a level 4 dank spore has ~210 hp).

 

Saying that, the latest recovery increase means everything takes longer to kill (including the party) in term of time. You need the same amount of hits as before, but you hit more slowly.

 

I personally like the change (to recovery, spell casting still need a pass though), but I do think enemies (especially when there are a lots of them) have too much hp (as they did in POE1).