Deathblows, Sneak Attack and Backstab don't stack

[Jojobobo]

EDIT: MaxQuest cleared this up here, so it's not a bug. I had no idea Rogues were so disappointingly weak however, as I mention in that thread Wizards do comparable damage to everyone in a group with Torrent of Flames, making reasonable single target damage a little redundant.

 

My damage range 28-40:

 

 

My Sneak Attack + Deathblows damage:

 

 

My Sneak Attack + Deathblows + Backstab damage:

 

 

These damage values before DR is taken into account seem to reflect only the largest multiplier working only (x2 for Deathblows in the first instance, x2.5 for Backstab in the second instance), as they are both below the value expected if all the damage bonuses were additive on a minimal damage roll of 28, and the Backstab example is also below the value of what you would expect if the damage was multiplicative again on a minimal damage roll of 28.

 

Is this how they're supposed to work, i.e. the biggest damage boosted suppressing the others? People seem to report this isn't the case (see topic here), and even if this is intentional I'd say it make Rogues even more niche and unviable compared to pretty much every class. One of the Monk builds on the forum can manage 200 damage in a single round of various stacked Retaliation effects (i.e. by doing nothing), and I'd say Wizard's aren't far off doing similar in an AoE with decent Might using their spells. With how these damage multipliers work a Rogue, 200 damage would be probably around the maximum you could possibly do. Seems to me that this makes the claim of Rogue's doing "the highest single target damage" stated by Sawyer and other devs simply not true.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Jojobobo

[Boeroer]

I always said that rogues are not the top notch single target damage dealers that they are advertised as. They get easily trumped by druids (spiritshift boar or cat with Avenging Storm) and also by monks. I'd also argue that a ranger can do more single target damage via bow over the course of an encounter while his dps "on paper" is a little lower - just because he doesn't have to move around that much and he auto-stunlocks.

 

A wizard skilled for Spirit Lance does so much melee damage - he doesn't even need offensive spells to put the rogue into a corner when it comes to dps (not single target here of course, but still great single target damage while every foe around dies as well). Even a druid with Rot Skulls or an Arcane Archer (Wizard skilled for the Blackbow) deal better weapon damage than a high lvl rogue. The thing that rogues do very well though is to quickly rush in and kill prioritiy targets. If  he manages that then he's very useful and it doesn't matter that much if he drops down afterwards.

 

And of course a stealth based rogue is great fun in a solo run.

 

Sometimes I think OBS designers don't really know how their combat mechanics work.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Boeroer

[Jojobobo]

From the other thread I made about this (in General Discussion):

 

Using a Legendary Hours of St. Rumbalt, and a Might 35 (the top of what you can get going solo with a Rogue), then by my calcs for Sneak Attack Deathblows you get:

 

[14-20] * (1 + 0.55 + 0.2 + 0.15 + 0.75 + 0.5 + 1.0) = [14-20] * 4.15 ~= [58-83] damage on normal hit

 

What I was going to go for in terms of attack speed was DAoM (one from Angio's Gambesom, one from Quick Switch Twin Sting), Gauntlets of Swift Action and Durgan-Refinement, using Durgan-Reinforced Angio's Gambeson, for:

 

[1 + 0.05] - ((1.5 * 1.15 * 1.15) - 1) ~= 7% recovery

 

On a crit (without Rabbit Fur Gauntlets, to take Gauntlets of Swift Action), with the aforementioned Annihilation, Durgan-Refinement, Dungeon Delver and the Merciless Hand, the on crit range is (I forgot to factor in the +0.5 base crit damage above):

 

[58-82] * (1.5 + 0.5 + 0.3 + 0.1 + 0.3) = [58-83] * (2.7) ~= 157-224

 

With a 25% lash, before DR this is:

 

196-280

 

And your hit to crit can be made to 65% (Dirty Fighting +10%, Vicious Fighting +10%, Durgan-Refinement +20%, Gravestep +25%). If you use Withering Strike, Fearsome Strike and Sever the Soul, you can heavily debuff Fortitude, so your Prone from Overbearing (Hours of St. Rumbalt) that should be common from the 65% Deathblows should have 5ish seconds duration with 20ish Intellect.

 

So I guess stacking that altogether:

 

- 65% Hit to Crit, (which with Rogue accuracy being what it is, a sizeable there should be a sizeable hit window for that to occur in)

- 7% Recovery

- Constant Deathblows (more or less)

- 196 - 280 crit Deathblows damage range

 

Against even Turisulfus, worse case scenario so long as you can crit Deathblows him, with a Freezing lash and his 972 Endurance it would be:

 

[157 - 34 slash DR] + [39 - (17 * 0.25) freeze DR] = 123 + 35 = 158.

 

972 / 158 = 7 hits (rounded up from 6.15, given that the you'll need the first hit to try and set up Deathblows). Probably maximum 20 hits, with his trolly Deflection and Fortitude, but you're hitting fast. Not too bad at all.

 

I guess I've just talked myself back into the build not being so bad, I'll stick with it and hopefully it'll stay competitive with some of the more damaging builds (though not out-pacing them as you say).

 

So I think when you put it in those terms, they're not so bad. Still they are a bit weedy and hard to keep alive, currently in Act II my build is doing fine with Veteran's Recovery and Shod-in-Faith but I'm not sure how long that will last (I'm going to be able to Quick Switch to Tidefall soon, but apparently the healing of that doesn't scale with any healing modifiers, so it may not help so much).

 

I think in terms of this "bug", they should really have updated the tooltip for all the Rogue damage abilities - if it says "+X% damage", you really expect that to apply to overall damage listed, and not base damage.

 

However, I suppose if it had been multiplicative, it would start to be 400 damage or so, which maybe is over the top. It's hard to say really.