Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Can Single Class Compete Under Current Sytem


  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#41
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2396 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

It is my understanding that multiple class use of character does indeed limit your characters as much as gives them freedom. A double edged sword and 2 sides of a nickel.

Some beta streamers have recommended that new players do not multi because of it.

 

Apart from making character creation more complicated there really isn't any reason to go single- rather than multi-class. It really isn't a double edged sword right now: multi-class is significantly better than single class.

 

Not sure who these beta streamers are, but I think they're paying too much attention to Obsidian's "new players are recommended to go single class" warning and not enough attention to the actual game balance.



#42
SonicMage117

SonicMage117

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1295 posts
  • Location:Texas, United States
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
This is the one I am referring to:


#43
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2396 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Yeah a lot of what he is saying is either wrong or supposition. He mentions power levels but clearly hasn't looked in depth into how they actually affect various abilities and ends up over valuing them. He also talks about the powerful high tier abilities despite the fact that in PoE these were often lacklustre and highly effective builds could easily be made that didn't use them.

 

Also: "it can make early parts of the game harder until you're all geared up" - I think, if anything, multiclass characters will have an easier time in the early game as many of the basic abilities of a class are very powerful. I'll take having both Sneak Attack and Soul Whip over access to power level 2 and 3 abilities earlier any day.


  • KDubya, Boeroer and SonicMage117 like this

#44
Gromnir

Gromnir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7277 posts
  • Location:Sleeping in my office.
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Yeah a lot of what he is saying is either wrong or supposition. He mentions power levels but clearly hasn't looked in depth into how they actually affect various abilities and ends up over valuing them. He also talks about the powerful high tier abilities despite the fact that in PoE these were often lacklustre and highly effective builds could easily be made that didn't use them.

 

Also: "it can make early parts of the game harder until you're all geared up" - I think, if anything, multiclass characters will have an easier time in the early game as many of the basic abilities of a class are very powerful. I'll take having both Sneak Attack and Soul Whip over access to power level 2 and 3 abilities earlier any day.

 

beta testers have difficulty recalling what deadfire were like the first time they loaded up the beta.  am recalling voiced consternation from any number o' players.  with a couple o' months and possible dozens o' hours playing, deadfire doesn't play for a seasoned beta tester and hardcore poe fan the way it is gonna play for most folks.  the video appears to be a "most folks" intro.

 

am recalling boeroer describing early struggles with deadfire until he understood the penetration mechanic.  game became easy for him once he saw the numerous penetration exploits available, but first play weren't matching expectations based 'pon reading descriptions and listening to developer feedback.  boeroer, last november, would be starting deadfire considerable ahead on the learning curve than the ordinary new player o' poe, but even he were confused by changes... and multiclassing offers more pitfalls than does penetration.  build a bad multiclass is easy and if you is new player making reasonable assumptions based on reading ability descriptions to guide your choices, you could end up suffering for it.

 

the video is from november 20 2017, near two months ago, and is likely a better representation o' what new players will face as 'posed to beta tester feedback being offered here and elsewhere.  sure, beta folks know how powerful is a few mc combinations.  beta folks know which class synergies is effective and potent.  *chuckle* now go back a couple months and recall all the wailing and hand ringing from some 'cause a paladin couldn't get sword and shield style w/o taking fighter... as if a barbarian/paladin needs sword and shield to be powerful in defense.

 

am not agreeing with all in the linked video, but the fact the video is from earliest beta is noteworthy. 

 

HA! Good Fun!


  • ShakotanSolari likes this

#45
MountainTiger

MountainTiger

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 77 posts

Am I right in the understanding that the beta is level capped below the release cap? The progression chart seems to suggest that the idea is for single classes to pull further ahead in their speciality as the game goes on, so only having access to the lower parts of the level curve could distort perceptions. Consider the way 2e multiclassing worked in the IE games: multiclasses barely lag behind a pure class in both classes until the experience curve levels out in the low teens. In BG1 multiclasses are fairly absurd because it sits on the early part of the curve, while in BG2 the better single and dual classes pull far enough ahead in levels to shine in their niches (though non-caster single classes still tend to be pretty sad in comparison to multiclasses).

 

In general, it seems OK to me if the best builds are multiclass as long as single classes are basically viable (especially if they're being recommended to new players). If balance is going to tilt towards one or the other, give me the one with more space to explore.



#46
CottonWolf

CottonWolf

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 156 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Am I right in the understanding that the beta is level capped below the release cap? The progression chart seems to suggest that the idea is for single classes to pull further ahead in their speciality as the game goes on, so only having access to the lower parts of the level curve could distort perceptions. Consider the way 2e multiclassing worked in the IE games: multiclasses barely lag behind a pure class in both classes until the experience curve levels out in the low teens. In BG1 multiclasses are fairly absurd because it sits on the early part of the curve, while in BG2 the better single and dual classes pull far enough ahead in levels to shine in their niches (though non-caster single classes still tend to be pretty sad in comparison to multiclasses).

 

In general, it seems OK to me if the best builds are multiclass as long as single classes are basically viable (especially if they're being recommended to new players). If balance is going to tilt towards one or the other, give me the one with more space to explore.

 

Yep. It's nowhere near the whole progression. Up to level 20 in the full game. So, yeah, we can't be sure what the balance look like in the endgame, but it's also true that the majority of the game isn't the endgame.



#47
MountainTiger

MountainTiger

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 77 posts

 

Am I right in the understanding that the beta is level capped below the release cap? The progression chart seems to suggest that the idea is for single classes to pull further ahead in their speciality as the game goes on, so only having access to the lower parts of the level curve could distort perceptions. Consider the way 2e multiclassing worked in the IE games: multiclasses barely lag behind a pure class in both classes until the experience curve levels out in the low teens. In BG1 multiclasses are fairly absurd because it sits on the early part of the curve, while in BG2 the better single and dual classes pull far enough ahead in levels to shine in their niches (though non-caster single classes still tend to be pretty sad in comparison to multiclasses).

 

In general, it seems OK to me if the best builds are multiclass as long as single classes are basically viable (especially if they're being recommended to new players). If balance is going to tilt towards one or the other, give me the one with more space to explore.

 

Yep. It's nowhere near the whole progression. Up to level 20 in the full game. So, yeah, we can't be sure what the balance look like in the endgame, but it's also true that the majority of the game isn't the endgame.

 

 

Yeah, even if the scaling works higher up the curve, it could be a problem for a lot of the game. And my impression from people in the beta is that higher power levels don't give a significant boost (at least at the levels in the beta), so it sounds like the prospects for the main advantage of single classes balancing out in the end are not great.



#48
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2396 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

And my impression from people in the beta is that higher power levels don't give a significant boost (at least at the levels in the beta), so it sounds like the prospects for the main advantage of single classes balancing out in the end are not great.

 

It varies between spells and abilities. For summoned weapons their near useless whereas for multiple projectile spells like Minoletta's various Missiles they can be quite powerful. One of the few single class characters that looks like it could have potential (once casting times are tweaked to not be awful) is a Nature Godlike Evoker using these spells (nature Godlike for easy access to +2 power levels).

 

However even when power levels do benefit an ability a lot they're a little wonky due to having cutoff points. There will be times when activating my Nature Godlike's racial wouldn't be worth it since the +2 power levels won't be enough to add anything to my spells. Then I level up once and suddenly it becomes worht doing again. This is, in my opinion, bad design.


  • tinysalamander, MountainTiger and ShakotanSolari like this

#49
SonicMage117

SonicMage117

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1295 posts
  • Location:Texas, United States
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Yeah a lot of what he is saying is either wrong or supposition. He mentions power levels but clearly hasn't looked in depth into how they actually affect various abilities and ends up over valuing them. He also talks about the powerful high tier abilities despite the fact that in PoE these were often lacklustre and highly effective builds could easily be made that didn't use them.

Also: "it can make early parts of the game harder until you're all geared up" - I think, if anything, multiclass characters will have an easier time in the early game as many of the basic abilities of a class are very powerful. I'll take having both Sneak Attack and Soul Whip over access to power level 2 and 3 abilities earlier any day.

It's kinda an example that goes with my Deadfire post. Thank you for sharing this info, because it proves that (as Gromnir said) there are beta testers who are making videos and who don't know the difference and just don't know period.

Edit: Actually, I wish this convo was part of the thread I created because it proves that some fans/beta testers maybe do not necessarily know what us the best feedback to give and what the rest of the community needs. The guy on the video unintentionally misleading people is good enough evidence I suppose.

Edited by SonicMage117, 16 January 2018 - 08:01 PM.


#50
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2396 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

It's kinda an example that goes with my Deadfire post. Thank you for sharing this info, because it proves that (as Gromnir said) there are beta testers who are making videos and who don't know the difference and just don't know period.

 

Well you have to bear in mind that the YouTuber you linked is, if not a professional YouTuber, certainly isn't one who's simply posting videos for fun. He wants traffic and you don't get traffic by appearing uncertain. Hence his title "Definitive Guide to Multiclassing - Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire" (no idea how it could be definitive given the game is still in beta).

 

Notice also that this video was released a few days after the beta was live. Not enough time to do detailed testing but just in time to ride the release hype wave and maximise views.

 

So when it comes to understanding the game well, these sorts of YouTubers aren't worth much. Watch them to see what the game looks like by all means, but they'll never come close to people like MaxQuest here.



#51
vanyel54

vanyel54

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 59 posts
  • Location:Paris France
  • Deadfire Silver Backer

"Definitive" and "Beta" in the same sentence should be a sufficient warning i think :w00t:


  • Heijoushin, JerekKruger, dukeisaac and 2 others like this

#52
darkling.lithely

darkling.lithely

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 37 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I still think that multiclassing subclasses would be great. A Streetfighter/Assassin could be fun.

 

It doubt that it solves the power balance problem between single- and multi-class characters, but maybe if all characters had to choose two classes it would. Purist could choose Rogue/Rogue or whatever.


  • CottonWolf likes this

#53
Ancelor

Ancelor

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 35 posts
Maybe instead of subclasses from the get go we should have them enabled after a certain level for single class characters only adding more benefits that drawbacks of course.
Something that rewards single class progression.

#54
Amigo345

Amigo345

    (0) Nub

  • Initiates
  • 3 posts
interesting discussion. Never tried multiclassing in BG since I thought it was overly complicated for me. Nowadays Id definately play a mixed type of character and Im looking forward to multiclasiing in Poe 2. Like I played rogue/archer/mage in Tyranny. That was really kewl.

I guess they have to maje thise high tier abilities really badass to make singlecladding wirth it.

#55
Wormerine

Wormerine

    (7) Enchanter

  • Members
  • 929 posts
  • Location:Poznan
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Maybe instead of subclasses from the get go we should have them enabled after a certain level for single class characters only adding more benefits that drawbacks of course.Something that rewards single class progression.


It could work, but that would mean changing subclasses into specialisations. Not a terrible idea, but would take whole lot of redesign work. I do like the idea of subclasses, and I am all for negative effects of a subclass - they just need some more love.

#56
CottonWolf

CottonWolf

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 156 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I still think the solution is to get rid of single class characters entirely. They're vestigial at this point. Just have full advancement in two classes. There are enough pure martial classes that you could build a roughly "non-magical" fighter (Fighter/Rogue) if you wanted to, and everything else is covered.


Edited by CottonWolf, Today, 05:36 AM.


#57
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7891 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Eh? Why that? Actually having single classes adds choice and does not remove it. Even if they happen to be less powerful than several multiclass combos they are still viable choices. The choice is basically "faster ability progression and more powerful endgame abilites vs. powerful synergies and two resource pools". Removing them does nothing good for anybody. If you think they are bad - just don't play them in your game.

If you would only allow multiclass chars then it would be wiser to remove classes alltogether and design a classless system (like Josh - and me - like them best anyways).

At the moment it's just a matter of balancing. And in my opinion the problem can be easily solved with a) shorter casting times (for our poor single class casters) and b) proper design and implementation of Power Level and how it influences ALL abilites in a meaningful way. That should do the trick.

Edited by Boeroer, Today, 07:43 AM.

  • morhilane, rjshae, bonarbill and 1 other like this

#58
rjshae

rjshae

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4688 posts
  • Location:Seattle, WA
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Yep. Based upon the PoE record, PoE2 will be tweaked and rebalanced several times to correct for factors such as particularly favorable multi-class synergies. It'll all work itself out over time.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users