Analysis of Meta-Game [Abilities/Spells]

[Boeroer]

The initial attack still uses STR I presume, it's only the AoE cone that uses RES. Still not very plausible - but that's the case with all AoE damage effects which are not derived from weapon damage (like carnage, Deadfire's new Blast and Deadfire's new Spirit Lance). Like Rooting Pain and any other spell-like AoE damaging effect.

[dunehunter]

So many red in Rogue But I think the +20 penetration of cripple strike is a bug, so one more red plz

 

Arterial Strike and Gouging Strike are good if you are a spellblade that dump Str pump Res, as the raw damage is unrelated to the initial damage.

 

And I hope Rogue can have an ability to reduce enemy armor too, I don't ask much, just single target ability that reduce AR by 2 is fine to me...

Edited January 10, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

Arterial Strike only causes damage when the enemy moves. Did you take that into account? As long as the enemy doesn't move it does 0 raw damage.

 

However, if you combine things like Binding Web + Arterial Strike with Blast things get interesting: enemies will try to move but are stuck, and Arterial Strike will already cause damage if you try to move (if you issue the command), even if you can't because you are stuck.

 

However, I think it's a pretty good ability but not too powerful as long as you don't play "attack and run away" all the time. 

[dunehunter]

 

If torment reach is a full attack like it is in PoE 1, a Monk can just dump Dex and spam full attack like they do in PoE1. I think that’s the reason devs nerf it to primary attack. Even tho the updated version is really powerful. 

 

 

Yes but you must have 3 wounds ? You must not wait for the enemy touch the monk ?

 

(In POE1 I wasn't a big fan of monk, so I do not know any of his secrets)

 

 

It is super easy to get 3 wounds honestly, specially Shattered Pillar, every torment reach you use will give u at least 2-3 wounds.

 

Helwalker gets 3 wounds from the beginning of combat, and for the Drug monk eating drug gives wounds... So I think 3 wound cost is fine.

Edited January 10, 2018 by dunehunter

[dunehunter]

I think an overall suggestion is to rework all ability cost to Power level / 2 + 1, so ability from power level 1st, 2rd layer cost 1 point, from 3th, 4th layer cost 2 and etc.

Edited January 10, 2018 by dunehunter

[AndreaColombo]

The initial attack still uses STR I presume, it's only the AoE cone that uses RES. Still not very plausible - but that's the case with all AoE damage effects which are not derived from weapon damage (like carnage, Deadfire's new Blast and Deadfire's new Spirit Lance). Like Rooting Pain and any other spell-like AoE damaging effect.

 

I'm actually fairly sure the initial attack is still RES-based, but I didn't take a screenshot and my play time is over for the day. I'll run more ... experiments, tomorrow.

[dunehunter]

 

The initial attack still uses STR I presume, it's only the AoE cone that uses RES. Still not very plausible - but that's the case with all AoE damage effects which are not derived from weapon damage (like carnage, Deadfire's new Blast and Deadfire's new Spirit Lance). Like Rooting Pain and any other spell-like AoE damaging effect.

 

I'm actually fairly sure the initial attack is still RES-based, but I didn't take a screenshot and my play time is over for the day. I'll run more ... experiments, tomorrow.

 

 

Actually it is both Str and Res based on initial target. You will do a primary attack to the initial target which is Str based. Then it triggers the AOE effect, the AOE effect not only does damage to target behind, but also the initial target. So it is Str + Res on first target.

 

Not sure if it is a bug or not! Same as the cipher lvl spell Mind wave, I remember sometimes it does crush damage to first target too..

Edited January 10, 2018 by dunehunter

[JFutral]

If every class is going to have essentially the some form of metaphysical power pool to draw from, all this "guile/bond/rage/etc" stuff has to go. Just go with some generic "Mana-esque" thing. When it was just Monks with wounds or Chanters with phrases, it seemed more deliberate and appropriate. Now it just sounds trite and forced. IMHO.

 

Rogues. I still want a Trap subclass either here or under Ranger, maybe part of a hunter or bounty hunter type. Otherwise just ditch the whole thing. Make traps important or just get rid of them. One trap per character. Whatever.

 

I mostly agree with the Rogue critique, but an Empowered Final Blow has been quite the boon!

 

Rogue is still my favourite. Some of his offense does seem a bit nerfed now. The guile thing. Whatever.

 

One skill point to divvy between stealth or mechanics? WTF?

 

Joe

[dunehunter]

Anyone think the Cleave stance of Fighter is OK or overpowered? In D&D cleave will only trigger one attack, and greater cleave triggers when u killed a 2nd enemy. But in Deadfire each time you killed a target, it triggers a 'Heart of Fury'...

 

I rolled a Berserker/Devoted and I find that every cleave attack that kills enemy seems triggers another cleave attack. So if you killed the initial target, you trigger an AOE cleave, then your cleave killed another enemy, it triggers another cleave... I saw my berserker instantly killed all zombies in the dungeon and I goes WTF ?!

Edited January 10, 2018 by dunehunter

[theBalthazar]

You talk about the mob stance ?

 

In fact, I think if there a lot of people, mob stance is widely better. If not conquerer stance is really good.

 

To be frank, I used until now 90 % of the time conquerer stance. But maybe I'm wrong to not used mob stance...

[dunehunter]

 

Same link but incase it is not displayed: http://youtu.be/qtQAXe_5p7U

 

I activated Disciplined Barrage and Swift flurry tho, but you got the idea!

 

1. Cleave attacks are full attacks.

 

2. Kill enemy trigger AOE cleave, AOE cleave triggers more Swift flurry attacks, and if any enemy is killed -> More AOE cleaves...

 

I think this combo is more abusive than Citizal Spirit Lance + Swift Flurry because you generate more attacks through Cleaves. And any extra kill generate more Cleaves.

Edited January 10, 2018 by dunehunter

[AndreaColombo]

Probably a bug. Unfortunately so, though, as that's pretty badass XD

[vanyel54]

If every class is going to have essentially the some form of metaphysical power pool to draw from, all this "guile/bond/rage/etc" stuff has to go. Just go with some generic "Mana-esque" thing. When it was just Monks with wounds or Chanters with phrases, it seemed more deliberate and appropriate. Now it just sounds trite and forced. IMHO.

 

Joe

 

+1 for this request. Rename them Action points or Mana or whatever.

[dunehunter]

 

If every class is going to have essentially the some form of metaphysical power pool to draw from, all this "guile/bond/rage/etc" stuff has to go. Just go with some generic "Mana-esque" thing. When it was just Monks with wounds or Chanters with phrases, it seemed more deliberate and appropriate. Now it just sounds trite and forced. IMHO.

Joe

+1 for this request. Rename them Action points or Mana or whatever.

I partially agree with the idea, but imagining a Corpse eater/Paladin who refill it’s ‘zealot’ by eating corpse?! Hmmm sounds a disgusting way to me.

 

But it will enable more synergy for more builds, which I upvote

Edited January 11, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

I think with Cleave it's the same problem as with Swift Flurry: ANBAs (additional, non-animated bonus attacks ) derived from Swift Flurry and Cleave should not be allowed to trigger further ANBAs. Problem solved, but still a very useful combo. I like those crit-builds. What about Citzal's Lance + Cleave? Also weird "m-m-m-monsterkill!" behavior?

[theBalthazar]

Problem with "mana" and "action point".

 

This don't reflect the particularity if there is a 5 mana / 5 mana. (visually)

 

Novice can believe mana is for all his actions. So, if there is a pool by class, there is a name by class, that make sense.

 

after that, if Obsidian chose this option, If we use mana or action point, pools must be merged. It is not a bad idea on the paper. For exemple, for few builds I have created, I used massively barbarian rage points, and less the fighter discipline points (disciplined strike and is over)

 

In this case you can use all your "mana" or "action point" for frenzy or the expensive barbaric blow. 10 mana rather than 5 discipline / 5 rage.

 

But it is not the choice of developpers.

Edited January 11, 2018 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

I think with Cleave it's the same problem as with Swift Flurry: ANBAs (additional, non-animated bonus attacks ) derived from Swift Flurry and Cleave should not be allowed to trigger further ANBAs. Problem solved, but still a very useful combo. I like those crit-builds. What about Citzal's Lance + Cleave? Also weird "m-m-m-monsterkill!" behavior?

 

Citzal Lance + Cleave would be more powerful yes!!

 

Basically you can hit one mob 2-4 times with cleave if your Int is high I think.

 

It’s just like a death whirlwind :D

Edited January 11, 2018 by dunehunter

[theBalthazar]

PRIEST

 

Preamble for the first caster : (Yes I kept the hard ones for last : p)

Given the opinions and the changes coming around the cast time, I will try as far as possible not too much to take into account. In my head, rather than this, I will see categories :

 

Overall (actually) : Cast Time+Recovery

10s = Slow

8s = intermediate (lol 8s intermediate : p)

6s = Fast

3s = Very fast

0,5-0 = Instant or Quasi-Instant

 

That is 5 speed class for spells. To compared spells -each others- (but NEVER compared to others abilities for now). Because I will not judge each time of his numbers, otherwise I could never judge and everything will be red actually : p

 

> ACTIVE ABILITIES (SPELLS)

 

Holy radiance

Considering his speed and that is given, it is a good start to heal all the team. Good enough.

Proposal : Almost perfect like this. But put back the +10 accuracy, I pay a passive ability for that : p

 

Touch of rot

Good corrosive spell globally. I would have thought of more penetration, it is still acid... : p

Proposal : 7 penetration (its 5)

 

Interdiction

For me, the CT+R is too high. I think he must be faster.

Proposal : Fast > Very fast like 3s overall. Because the effect is not crazy (dazed...) and only for 7s

 

Restore

One of the only spell what I use frankly in this hard time for the priest.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Supress affliction

Always good to suspend effects. Good cast time.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Holy power

Problem of this : area of effect AND Will be exceeded in every way. (Tenacious etc). So the placement is as follows: Large area + Long.

Proposal : Stay at 30s like now but 3m radius.

 

Barbs of condemnation

-5 defenses, 7 penetration and correct damage. Ok.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Blessing

Problem with blessing is... dire blessing. Who beating him in every thing : p So we must put back his distinction (POE1...) It would not have been a problem if we had the whole spell list : but we must choose...

Proposal : Like now + 10 % of damage.

 

Halt

Perfect except the cast time. It is only one target and not with the best affliction ever.

Proposal : Down his category fast -> Very fast like 3s overall.

 

Holy meditation

Buff ok.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

All "Prayer/Litany for"

Always nice except for cast time. Completely absurd.

Proposal : Down speed category Intermediate -> Fast

 

Repulsing seal

Poor spell. At the start of POE1, it was awsome... Now... Sniff... In view of the meta-game....:

Proposal : Triple his area of effect. At least it touches few peoples...

 

Withdraw

One of the best spell now.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Spiritual weapon

I never speak of cast time here but of categories. And here there is a problem.

Proposal : Instant spell or quasi-instant (0.5s)

 

Iconic projection

Ok here.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Pillars of faith

Ok here too.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Spreading plague

Ok here too x2 A good debuff.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Warding seal / Searing seal

One effect = OK damage. But no need a category of speed like that.

Proposal : Intermediate -> Fast

 

Watchful presence

Good speed (in our system... : p) + good effect

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Dire blessing

One of the best during the beta 1.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Consecrated ground

Ok for me.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Divine mark

I propose something here. Stay with intermediate category (we feel he is in higher category... on the light of his damage, his effect etc.) But if we do that...

Proposal : Stay with intermediate (actually 8s overall) but Penetration 9 (it's 7 actually) It is only one target : it is congruous.

 

Despondent blows

Here the spell is good except the crit to hit part (ennemies) 15 % crit to hit is not enough. I never do this spell in POE1 for this reason...

Proposal : 25 % crit to hit. (Recall : 75 % of their crit still pass. Even with this upgrade...)

 

Divine terror

Perfect except area of effect. I will go up to 3m. It is a ok spell but not crazy.

Proposal : 3m radius.

 

Shining beacon

I love this spell in the first. Good category of speed. No problem.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Triumph of the crusaders

Good spell too.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Circle of protection

For me, there is no reason to be in intermediate category (8s actually). It is a "ok" spell with +15 in all defenses but only for 15s.

Proposal : Down to fast speed like 3s CT + 3s R.

 

Devotion of the faithful

Hum : p I'll be dishonest if I say he's not in the right category. One of the best spell in the game.

Proposal : Perfect like this. (Hope a general adjustment because 8 seconds is completely absurd...)

 

Revive of the fallen

Ok category. Ok amount of health. Good for me.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Barring death's door

Incredible given the current system.

Proposal : Perfect like this.

 

Champion's boon

I hesitated. The effect is good, but it is only one target. So, for me...

Proposal : Down the category of speed. Intermediate -> fast like 3s CT + 3s R

 

Side note : I hope 2 things for Priest. a good amount of passives and obviously a general breakdown of all cast time / Speed / recovery time.

Edited January 11, 2018 by theBalthazar

[theBalthazar]

Recall of facts in POE1 :

 

Fast

2.23 seconds consumed

• Frames to Effect: 14
  
• Frames to Completion: 35
  
• Frames of Recovery: 32
  

AVERAGE

4.3 seconds consumed

• Frames to Effect: 53
  
• Frames to Completion: 79
  
• Frames of Recovery: 50
  

SLOW

7.93 seconds consumed

• Frames to Effect: 128
  
• Frames to Completion: 132
  
• Frames of Recovery: 106
  

 

In POE2 beta² :

 

Instant or Quasi-Instant

0s ; 0.5s

Very fast

3s

 

Fast

6s

 

Average

8s

 

Slow

10s

Edited January 11, 2018 by theBalthazar

[AndreaColombo]

Problem with Prayer/Litany spells is they can’t target Charmed allies for they count as enemies and the spells are ally-only. This way you can’t counter Charm with the relevant Inspiration from the Prayer/Litany spell, which I think is counter-intuitive and a missed opportunity.

[theBalthazar]

I think this is a bug.

[AndreaColombo]

I reported it last week under the same assumption; let’s keep our fingers crossed.

[MaxQuest]

Problem with Prayer/Litany spells is they can’t target Charmed allies for they count as enemies and the spells are ally-only. This way you can’t counter Charm with the relevant Inspiration from the Prayer/Litany spell, which I think is counter-intuitive and a missed opportunity.

Additionally: what should the interaction be if you charm-back a charmed team member?

 

In PoE1: he would change alliance back (i.e. become friendly), but would not be able to use any abilities.

Personally I would expect second charm to cancel the charm effect, even if other maluses (like minus defenses in PoE1 or minus 5 INT in Deadfire) are still in effect.

 

Full Attack was too powerful in PoE in my opinion.

In Deadfire Full Attack is even more powerful, provided that your recovery duration is above zero.

 

In PoE1 (FoD with dual sabres, naked, no other effects): 1s (offhand attack) -> 1s (mainhand attack) -> 0.833s (mainhand recovery). You hit twice in 2.833s compared to 3.666s - time that would take you to make two consecutive normal attacks.

 

In Deadfire (FoD with dual sabres, naked, no other effects): 0.7s (mainhand attack) -> 0.7s (offhand attack) -> 1.5s (offhand recovery). You hit twice in 2.9s compared to 4.4s.

Edited January 11, 2018 by MaxQuest

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Problem with Prayer/Litany spells is they can’t target Charmed allies for they count as enemies and the spells are ally-only. This way you can’t counter Charm with the relevant Inspiration from the Prayer/Litany spell, which I think is counter-intuitive and a missed opportunity.

Additionally: what should the interaction be if you charm-back a charmed team member?

 

In PoE1: he would change alliance back (i.e. become friendly), but would not be able to use any abilities.

Personally I would expect second charm to cancel the charm effect, even if other maluses (like minus defenses in PoE1 or minus 5 INT in Deadfire) are still in effect.

 

Full Attack was too powerful in PoE in my opinion.

In Deadfire Full Attack is even more powerful, provided that your recovery duration is above zero.

 

In PoE1 (FoD with dual sabres, naked, no other effects): 1s (offhand attack) -> 1s (mainhand attack) -> 0.833s (mainhand recovery). You hit twice in 2.833s compared to 3.666s - time that would take you to make two consecutive normal attacks.

 

In Deadfire (FoD with dual sabres, naked, no other effects): 0.7s (mainhand attack) -> 0.7s (offhand attack) -> 1.5s (offhand recovery). You hit twice in 2.9s compared to 4.4s.

 

Despite hundreds of hours in PoE1+beta, I must admit, I'm still not knowledgeable enough in all the combat system subtleties.

I just found this info about Full Attack vs Primary Attack on the Steam forums:

"Primary attack means only the weapon in the right hand, full attack means both weapons at the same time if you're dualwielding.

 

Depending on the class it can be something to take into account. Like it's a bit useless to make a dualwielding fighter because his knockdown (who is kind of his only main attack skill) is primary only. On the other hand all the rogue's skills are full attacks."

The latter info means I should be able to do some beastly things with a dualwielding rogue.

[JFutral]

Problem with "mana" and "action point".

 

This don't reflect the particularity if there is a 5 mana / 5 mana. (visually)

 

Novice can believe mana is for all his actions. So, if there is a pool by class, there is a name by class, that make sense.

 

after that, if Obsidian chose this option, If we use mana or action point, pools must be merged. It is not a bad idea on the paper. For exemple, for few builds I have created, I used massively barbarian rage points, and less the fighter discipline points (disciplined strike and is over)

 

In this case you can use all your "mana" or "action point" for frenzy or the expensive barbaric blow. 10 mana rather than 5 discipline / 5 rage.

 

But it is not the choice of developpers.

 

As far as the UI is concerned it already is "5/5" or whatever regarding both these action points and spells, the differentiator being they are color coded and class appropriate icon.

 

I get your point, though. But it is no more confusing by simply saying "Rogue action points/Ranger action points". That would actually be less confusing and less cumbersome by removing the one-degree of separation of power-pool from the class the 'rage/guile/etc" introduces.

 

I get the attempt at a role-playing nomenclature, but they breeched that already with the generic "Empower" mode. And any depth provided by this class specific naming of the pool count is at best inferred, barely implied.

 

But then, it took reading through this forum to finally understand what Empower actually does. After two play-throughs, there was nothing intuitive within the game UI/UX.

 

Joe