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Paladin Order Talents

Talents PoE1 Beta

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#21
Murp

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Honestly I think every paladin order having a minus is a good thing. Paladins are extremely useful in every situation and having a generalist just seems like there's too much going for it.

 

Lore-wise paladins are supposed to be kinda fanatical right? so it makes sense that the things the order frowns upon would be weaker since the paladins get their power from how dedicated they are to the order, Maybe the minuses could be rebalanced to reflect that more?

 

This is kind of a stretch but maybe paladins could get the minuses but they only activate if you have dispositions that are against the order, so Bleak Walkers that are diplomatic and/or benevolent get penalized but ones that are true to their dogma don't. I think that would be really cool.



#22
Leeuwenhart

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They shouldve made 1 order without a malus and only a tiny flavoured feat.

Like the Darcozzi. The original pallies. Makes sense.

All rest are offshoots and hybrids.

Make Darcozzi vanilla paladins.
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#23
theBalthazar

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Don't forget that in POE1, Paladin was one of the worse class of the game.

 

Now he is at his right place.

 

Create versatile possibilities with a melee is an obligation.



#24
PneumaticFire

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Don't forget that in POE1, Paladin was one of the worse class of the game.

 

Now he is at his right place.

 

Create versatile possibilities with a melee is an obligation.

 

Yes, admittedly with the later patches Paladins saw big improvements, but please don't hit them with the nerf bat in Deadfire as they deserve their time to shine!

 

Yes but some tweaking is required with the orders. 

Yet the removal of malus' is understandable in some aspects when you don't have the option of a 'vanilla' class like you do with the rest.  


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#25
KDubya

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Don't forget that in POE1, Paladin was one of the worse class of the game.

 

Now he is at his right place.

 

Create versatile possibilities with a melee is an obligation.

 

How were Paladins in PoE bad? I thought they were one of the better classes and liked to have two of them in my team. Now this is after the big Paladin patch which was the same as the Defender patch.

 

I'd say Paladins now are top tier or maybe even the best. For sure they are the best choice for a multiclass where you care about self sufficiency or survival via better defenses.

 

Since they've taken away their flavorful malus they next need to nerf them hard as they get too many free abilities and are too powerful now with no downside. I'd much rather have a bold color Paladin with a big malus than a bland pastel Paladin that are all various shades of vanilla.



#26
Yosharian

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Not having a base Paladin that doesn't specialise is just dumb



#27
dunehunter

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Don't forget that in POE1, Paladin was one of the worse class of the game.

Now he is at his right place.

Create versatile possibilities with a melee is an obligation.


How were Paladins in PoE bad? I thought they were one of the better classes and liked to have two of them in my team. Now this is after the big Paladin patch which was the same as the Defender patch.

I'd say Paladins now are top tier or maybe even the best. For sure they are the best choice for a multiclass where you care about self sufficiency or survival via better defenses.

Since they've taken away their flavorful malus they next need to nerf them hard as they get too many free abilities and are too powerful now with no downside. I'd much rather have a bold color Paladin with a big malus than a bland pastel Paladin that are all various shades of vanilla.

Don’t wanna make another thread about which class is best in PoE 1, but... isn’t it wizard, priest, barbarian and monk that are top tier classes? Because per rest spells really make wizard/priest powerful in late game, and not mention the monsterlash Monk build and tons of beautiful Barbarian build made by Boeroer :)

#28
theBalthazar

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POE1

 

God tiers 

Druid

Wizard

Priest

 

High tiers

Barbarian (with the per encounter of heart of fury)

Ranger

 

Mid tiers

Monk

Cipher

Rogue

Chanter

Barbarian (before heart of the fury per encounter)

 

Trash tiers

Paladin

Fighter

 

So globally, mono-target, without others possibilities.

 

Now in POE2 the predominance (=more effective) for a solo target for these two classes is totally normal.

 

That's why disciplines strike and flames of devotion are not too powerful.

 

You have only one target, it is totally normal whether it is like this.


Edited by theBalthazar, 16 January 2018 - 04:25 AM.


#29
Ninjamestari

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Basically Paladins suck in PoE1. They're like fighters but less good due to them having so low deflection and accuracy. If you put a fighter and a paladin against one another, the fighter will win 100% of the time because he simply has better stats. For example, a fully boosted and upgraded Faith and Conviction will only make up for the incredibly low base-deflection for the class. Accuracy will never be on par with the Fighter, and neither will damage, and Fighter isn't even a particularly powerful class to begin with, Balthazar even ranking him in the lowest trash tier alongside the Paladin, which would make Paladin the absolute worst class in the game. No amount of empty "you can make viable Paladins" - rhetoric will change the fact that every single other class is far more useful and powerful in just about every single situation.



#30
PneumaticFire

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Basically Paladins suck in PoE1. They're like fighters but less good due to them having so low deflection and accuracy. If you put a fighter and a paladin against one another, the fighter will win 100% of the time because he simply has better stats. For example, a fully boosted and upgraded Faith and Conviction will only make up for the incredibly low base-deflection for the class. Accuracy will never be on par with the Fighter, and neither will damage, and Fighter isn't even a particularly powerful class to begin with, Balthazar even ranking him in the lowest trash tier alongside the Paladin, which would make Paladin the absolute worst class in the game. No amount of empty "you can make viable Paladins" - rhetoric will change the fact that every single other class is far more useful and powerful in just about every single situation.

 

Yes, Obsidian please take note! (which I think you have so far).  

Please don't relegate the Paladin's usefulness in regards to other classes to a nice multiclass option.  

Please make the Pally a strong class, at the very least up there with the rest of them throughout the levels!


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#31
KDubya

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I found that once a Paladin got their AoE fire aura that also healed (can't remember the name) they did pretty good damage. Their Lay on hands was one of the best heals and their auras were always appreciated by their team.

 

Sure they weren't 'God-mode Gandalph' like wizards and the vancians were but I would not use the word 'suck' to describe them. Now Rogues were pretty trash.

 

In DeadFire I'd say that Paladins are the strongest class to use in a multiclass and would be a top tier single class as well.


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#32
Gromnir

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never understood much o' the poe paladin criticism. regardless, am getting a strong sense o' déjà vu. 

 

https://forums.obsid...dins/?p=1789585

 

at least a half dozen similar threads we coulda' linked.

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#33
SaruNi

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Shieldbearers are great if you want to make use of the can't-die effect from their LoH. 

 

While it's almost certainly better to use LoH with a second character optimized for low-health bonuses etc, it's fun to have a Shieldbearer using it on themselves now the malus has been removed. 

 

(Granted, between the recovery time and the zeal cost, a LoH immortality build is bad for sustained DPS, though with high int and dex you can still get swings in between LoH. And Death Godlike Shieldbearer with scrolls has good burst DPS near death....)


Edited by SaruNi, 18 January 2018 - 02:09 PM.


#34
Torm51

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Basically Paladins suck in PoE1. They're like fighters but less good due to them having so low deflection and accuracy. If you put a fighter and a paladin against one another, the fighter will win 100% of the time because he simply has better stats. For example, a fully boosted and upgraded Faith and Conviction will only make up for the incredibly low base-deflection for the class. Accuracy will never be on par with the Fighter, and neither will damage, and Fighter isn't even a particularly powerful class to begin with, Balthazar even ranking him in the lowest trash tier alongside the Paladin, which would make Paladin the absolute worst class in the game. No amount of empty "you can make viable Paladins" - rhetoric will change the fact that every single other class is far more useful and powerful in just about every single situation.

I agree that they lacked the strength of vancian classes like druids, priests and wizards but all martial classes do especially in PoTD. Also I dont know if you use shields on your Paladins but a Paladin with full faith and conviction and a shield rivals a tank Fighter in Deflection (has way more then a DPS fighter) and has WAY WAY better Fort, Reflex and Will. On Path of the Damned your second least useful defense is Deflection, what you have to avoid is being CCed which then gets you killed and it doesnt matter how good your deflection is. Also the only Dragon that targets Deflection is the Sky Dragon and its a push over dragon. The Alpine, Wizard Ground Dragon and the Adra Dragon auto attacks target Fort and the Breath (Dont let them breathe) Reflex. A fighter tank is MUCH easier to CC cause his FORT, Reflex and Will is going to be lower then a Paladin tank. In fact a fighter has to grab a Large Shield to beat out a Paladin on Reflex where a Paladin is about even him in that area with a buckler (lol). That being said if you are a pure tank with a fighter you are doing it wrong. The fighter is easier to kill, I have played them both on Triple Crown and have logged over 2000 hours on that difficulty (yes I am a loser).

Lastly, once you got Sacred Immolation your DPS was damn good. With Flames of Devotion and Sworn Enemy you were only a good alpha striker. My Paladin always beats out everyone save true DPS damage dealers who start as damage dealers from the start. So at the end he is usually second in total damage done.

PS Yes I am a Paladin fan boy but if the class truly sucked I would say so cause it is my fav class and want it to be great! It was not GREAT, no but it did do the job. Things cant be balanced around Path of the Damned and the fact is that Vancian class that reduce defenses were absolutely vital on that difficulty (to make things easy). So ya they are the best. Paladins do a good job of supporting them. Which hey that IS their job in POE 1.

Edited by Torm51, 24 January 2018 - 06:29 PM.


#35
Torm51

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Good to know they are so far really good in POE 2 I hope it stays that way.



#36
Torm51

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POE1

God tiers
Druid
Wizard
Priest

High tiers
Barbarian (with the per encounter of heart of fury)
Ranger

Mid tiers
Monk
Cipher
Rogue
Chanter
Barbarian (before heart of the fury per encounter)

Trash tiers
Paladin
Fighter

So globally, mono-target, without others possibilities.

Now in POE2 the predominance (=more effective) for a solo target for these two classes is totally normal.

That's why disciplines strike and flames of devotion are not too powerful.

You have only one target, it is totally normal whether it is like this.

Sacred Immolation and Charge are punishing multi target abilities. But ya it comes late game.

I agree with your god tier though everything else i think is middle tier save rogue. I’ve made some good rogues but I think on PoTD they get exposed unless you turn them into riposte tanks or raw damage ranged single target dragon drainers.

Edited by Torm51, 24 January 2018 - 06:38 PM.


#37
KaineParker

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If talents come back I don't think Order talents are necessary as it seems to be built into the class now.

Regarding the PoE Paladin, it works well as a support class that doesn't need to rest to make use of its abilities or requires much micromanagement and can front-line fairly well due to the good defense bonuses from Faith and Conviction(assuming you go with Favored dispositions).

#38
Boeroer

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People who claim that paladins are weaker than fighters or rogues in PoE1 didn't understand which mechanics/stats are important (like for example fortitude) and which are not so much (single target dps, deflection).

The fact alone that a paladin can raise a single ally's accuracy by +46 (Coordinated Attacks + Marking Weapon + Marking Weapon + Zealous Endurance + Inspiring Exhortation), 40 of them stackable with everything, makes him no. 1 support against dragons and other hard-to-hit enemies. Even with only Coordinated Attacks + Marking + ZF it's 26, 20 of them stackable with everything.

Overall passive defenses are the best in the game as well. Not deflection, but that is not really important.

The Counselor Ploi build was one of the most useful characters I had in a party. It's a paladin as you might have guessed.

Fighters... not so much. At least not at PotD. Just too many enemies to control them with a fighter or kill them quickly enough, no good support whatsoever (Guardian Stance is crap because it doesn't stack, Take the Hit would be great if it wasn't so bugged). The best thing is Charge and that comes so late.

And don't forget the Outworn Buckler. It's kind of a part of the Paladin class after all and one of the best items in the game-given how early you can get it.

There is a reason why so many can conveniently solo the game with a paladin while they say that using a fighter is way more difficult. Gives a hint in terms of tankyness. Also Sacred Immolation...

It's not all starting stats on paper. You have to play the game a few times in order to know what is potentially good or what not.

And I'm not even a fan of paladins.

May be different if you don't play PotD though (for example rogues andalso fighters fare better in the lower difficulties because there are less enemies with lower defenses or even weaker enemies - while chanters are great on PotD and not so much on other difficulties).

In Deadfire it seems that paladins are not only good supporters, but make every multiclass combo more tanky and dish out a lot more dps at the same time. Atm they feel like one of the best classes - maybe the best. Paladin order talents don't change a lot about that. Just a bit of icing on the cake. ;)


Edited by Boeroer, 25 January 2018 - 02:00 AM.

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#39
Torm51

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People who claim that paladins are weaker than fighters or rogues in PoE1 didn't understand which mechanics/stats are important (like for example fortitude) and which are not so much (single target dps, deflection).

The fact alone that a paladin can raise a single ally's accuracy by +46 (Coordinated Attacks + Marking Weapon + Marking Weapon + Zealous Endurance + Inspiring Exhortation), 40 of them stackable with everything, makes him no. 1 support against dragons and other hard-to-hit enemies. Even with only Coordinated Attacks + Marking + ZF it's 26, 20 of them stackable with everything.

Overall passive defenses are the best in the game as well. Not deflection, but that is not really important.

The Counselor Ploi build was one of the most useful characters I had in a party. It's a paladin as you might have guessed.

Fighters... not so much. At least not at PotD. Just too many enemies to control them with a fighter or kill them quickly enough, no good support whatsoever (Guardian Stance is crap because it doesn't stack, Take the Hit would be great if it wasn't so bugged). The best thing is Charge and that comes so late.

And don't forget the Outworn Buckler. It's kind of a part of the Paladin class after all and one of the best items in the game-given how early you can get it.

There is a reason why so many can conveniently solo the game with a paladin while they say that using a fighter is way more difficult. Gives a hint in terms of tankyness. Also Sacred Immolation...

It's not all starting stats on paper. You have to play the game a few times in order to know what is potentially good or what not.

And I'm not even a fan of paladins.

May be different if you don't play PotD though (for example rogues andalso fighters fare better in the lower difficulties because there are less enemies with lower defenses or even weaker enemies - while chanters are great on PotD and not so much on other difficulties).

In Deadfire it seems that paladins are not only good supporters, but make every multiclass combo more tanky and dish out a lot more dps at the same time. Atm they feel like one of the best classes - maybe the best. Paladin order talents don't change a lot about that. Just a bit of icing on the cake. ;)

Ya I didn’t even mention their marking capabilities which is a dragon killer.

I agree with Boer on fighters on PoTD...that being said I think they are bad ass in Dragon Fights combined with a Paladin marking they can reliably prone a dragon and hit him hard. The Paladin + Fighter is my favorite dragon hunter combo. Fighters can prone dragons better than monks cause of Disciplined Barrage, combined with a Paladin mark it’s really good for knockdowns. A monk has to first have the wounds...which can be dangerous in a dragon fight.

Edited by Torm51, 25 January 2018 - 04:22 AM.


#40
Boeroer

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Just hit him yourself. And a graze from Force of Anguish will already cause a quite long lasting prone effect. But yes: a fighter with Disciplined Barrage is great for knocking dragons prone.
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