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Simple rebalance for Res/Per/Dex/Might


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#21
Answermancer

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I really hope they find a solution that doesn't involve fractional values of Accuracy or whatever. I think the goal of making each point of an attribute matter is a good one, and if one/two of them suddenly have bonuses that only really go up every 2 points, that will be a big step back.

 

I don't actually think they would do it though, I'm pretty sure making each point matter was a stated goal of the system back in the day.


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#22
Raenvan

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I really hope they find a solution that doesn't involve fractional values of Accuracy or whatever. I think the goal of making each point of an attribute matter is a good one, and if one/two of them suddenly have bonuses that only really go up every 2 points, that will be a big step back.

 

I don't actually think they would do it though, I'm pretty sure making each point matter was a stated goal of the system back in the day.

 

Fractional values, say +1.5 Accuracy, do matter. Imagine an encounter where your Accuracy equals your opponent's Deflection. A roll of 50 means you just grazed. Had you +1.5 Accuracy, it would be a hit similar to the effect of +1 or +2. In another fight, your opponent's Deflection is one higher, and you again grazed with a roll of 50. Had you +1.5 Accuracy, you would still graze (51 is the lower limit of Hits) similarly to +1, but different to +2. In the long run, +1.5 is equivalent with +1 in half of the fights, and with +2 in the other half.

 

Having attributes integer modifiers is only for beauty, not for game mechanics.

 

Edit: The above explanation is incomplete, it only shows why +1.5 is not equivalent to +2. To prove the other part, that it can differ also from +1, one assumes that enemies can have integer+half Deflection. Like -1 lower base, and +1.5 due to Resolve. In an encounter where your opponent's Deflection is higher by 0.5 than your Accuracy, you graze with a roll of 50. You would still graze with +1 Accuracy, but hit with +1.5 or with +2.


Edited by Raenvan, 09 December 2017 - 11:11 AM.


#23
Answermancer

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I really hope they find a solution that doesn't involve fractional values of Accuracy or whatever. I think the goal of making each point of an attribute matter is a good one, and if one/two of them suddenly have bonuses that only really go up every 2 points, that will be a big step back.

 

I don't actually think they would do it though, I'm pretty sure making each point matter was a stated goal of the system back in the day.

 

Fractional values, say +1.5 Accuracy, do matter. Imagine an encounter where your Accuracy equals your opponent's Deflection. A roll of 50 means you just grazed. Had you +1.5 Accuracy, it would be a hit similar to the effect of +1 or +2. In another fight, your opponent's Deflection is one higher, and you again grazed with a roll of 50. Had you +1.5 Accuracy, you would still graze (51 is the lower limit of Hits) similarly to +1, but different to +2. In the long run, +1.5 is equivalent with +1 in half of the fights, and with +2 in the other half.

 

Having attributes integer modifiers is only for beauty, not for game mechanics.

 

Edit: The above explanation is incomplete, it only shows why +1.5 is not equivalent to +2. To prove the other part, that it can differ also from +1, one assumes that enemies can have integer+half Deflection. Like -1 lower base, and +1.5 due to Resolve. In an encounter where your opponent's Deflection is higher by 0.5 than your Accuracy, you graze with a roll of 50. You would still graze with +1 Accuracy, but hit with +1.5 or with +2.

 

 

Yeah I suppose if enemies could have fractional Deflection from Resolve that would work. I know values don't have to be integers, but it does tend to feel cleaner and probably less scary to new players.

 

Generally if a system requires 0.5 values I'd just double the numbers involved, but I know number inflation has a lot of issues of its own (and in this case it wouldn't really work for Dex since Recovery has a lower bound it can go to... zero), and I also know that a lot of people absolutely hate having large numbers in CRPGs.


Edited by Answermancer, 09 December 2017 - 10:01 PM.


#24
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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One thing that could help somewhat:

 

If we returned to a 50% bonus for critical hits, as it was in the first game, rather than a 25% bonus, that would increase the per-point value of perception up to 2.4% rather than 2.0% flat. Which doesn't solve the whole problem but does bring things in closer parity -- it's only 0.3% below the value of a point of Dex at that point. 

 

It might even actually completely solve the issue depending on how the falloff values for each change as you add additional points of per/dex.

 

 

In a way, Per has been nerfed twice: once by the removal of interrupt, once by the shift to a 25% critical bonus.

 

So I think that's my recommendation for this problem: return to a 50% bonus for critical hits, rather than the current 25%. 


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 10 December 2017 - 08:20 AM.

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#25
Raenvan

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One thing that could help somewhat:

 

If we returned to a 50% bonus for critical hits, as it was in the first game, rather than a 25% bonus, that would increase the per-point value of perception up to 2.4% rather than 2.0% flat. Which doesn't solve the whole problem but does bring things in closer parity -- it's only 0.3% below the value of a point of Dex at that point. 

 

It might even actually completely solve the issue depending on how the falloff values for each change as you add additional points of per/dex.

 

 

In a way, Per has been nerfed twice: once by the removal of interrupt, once by the shift to a 25% critical bonus.

 

So I think that's my recommendation for this problem: return to a 50% bonus for critical hits, rather than the current 25%. 

Exactly! And I'd consider adding an inherent Interrupt to critical hits, as well. If I'm right that's equivalent with 1 of the old 3 points from PoE1, so not overpowered. 50% critical bonus + auto-interrupt + penetration bonus (whose expected extra damage hasn't been calculated to my knowledge) should be attractive enough to raise Perception. Or to raise Resolve to avoid received crits.


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#26
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Yeah, depending on how they rework Interrupt/concentration, then giving critical hits a chance to interrupt and Resolve a chance to reduce incoming crits * could* be a "way out" for this issue; per would still be the worst overall dps stat, but good for crit or interrupt builds. I'm not sure how the numbers would need to work out on Resolve to achieve parity though.

 

edit: yeah the extra penetration bonus etc. from critical hits isn't easily factorable into this analysis. Presumably it'll be pretty rare unless you're stacking the deck in a bunch of ways to get it, but as rough shorthand, we can probably assume that it's not enough to bring Per at 2.4% per point up to the value of Dex at 2.7% per point.

 

 

I also think there are strong arguments for returning to a 50% bonus for critical hits regardless of this change. As I understand it, the reason for the reduction was that CC crits were considered too powerful -- but just as with grazes, that turns out to be less of a concern than you might think, because CC overall isn't as powerful in this game due to the altered Affliction system. Similarly, if Resolve got a "reduce incoming criticals" function, that would also work to minimize the issue.


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 10 December 2017 - 09:51 AM.


#27
Raenvan

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Yeah, depending on how they rework Interrupt/concentration, then giving critical hits a chance to interrupt and Resolve a chance to reduce incoming crits * could* be a "way out" for this issue; per would still be the worst overall dps stat, but good for crit or interrupt builds. I'm not sure how the numbers would need to work out on Resolve to achieve parity though.

 

edit: yeah the extra penetration bonus etc. from critical hits isn't easily factorable into this analysis. Presumably it'll be pretty rare unless you're stacking the deck in a bunch of ways to get it, but as rough shorthand, we can probably assume that it's not enough to bring Per at 2.4% per point up to the value of Dex at 2.7% per point.

 

 

I also think there are strong arguments for returning to a 50% bonus for critical hits regardless of this change. As I understand it, the reason for the reduction was that CC crits were considered too powerful -- but just as with grazes, that turns out to be less of a concern than you might think, because CC overall isn't as powerful in this game due to the altered Affliction system. Similarly, if Resolve got a "reduce incoming criticals" function, that would also work to minimize the issue.

 

As you proposed earlier, 4x larger probability of crits with 25% damage bonus, or equivalently, same probabilty with 100% damage bonus would give near parity with Might. This assumes no penetration bonus, no interrupt bonus and +1 Accuracy per Perception. So your 50% bonus is absolutely needed, unless Perception grants +1.5 Accuracy (which I still prefer).

 

If Perception were scaled up with real criticals, Resolve would be balanced automatically to my opinion. No though work required. If somebody dumped Resolve, he'd suffer from enemies' crits on him. As for suggesting interrupting criticals, I meant not only some chance to interrupt, but inherently 100%. Which is one more argument not to dump Resolve.

 

I may have a very simplified damage estimation for criticals' penetration bonus. Let's assume that penetration and armor rating have uniform distribution in the same interval. In this case, the crit's penetration bonus upgades no penetration to normal one with 16.6% probability (-70% damage restored), and normal to full also with 16.6% (+30% damage). In average, the damage made is increased by 16.6% due to penetration bonus. Which is smaller than the 25% damage bonus we have now.






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