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Awesome game but lack of talents and low-synergy druid/monk

Balance talents progression druid monk

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33 replies to this topic

#21
Gromnir

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have now played a number o' druid/monk combos and am confident 'bout calling bs regarding the suggestion o' lack o' druid/monk synergies.  monk/druid synergies is fantastic.   am actual preferring to go with vanilla monk when combined with druid.  helwalker makes sense when combined with a lifegiver druid, but particular for longer battles, lifegiver is too constricting for us.  nevertheless, we can see any number o' subclass combos as being effective.  that said, we recent played through the ruins portion o' the game with multiple druid/monks, and we were much enjoying... inspite o' our self.  druid, regardless o' their poe/deadfire efficacy, is thematic unappealing to us.  perhaps 'cause we went to Cal and were surrounded by too many birkenstock bedecked druid wannabees who stank o' patchouli and never hesitated to share their opinions 'bout global warming and renewable energy and spotted owls? 

 

*groan* 

 

regardless, we do not gravitate to the druid class when making a pc. 

 

may seem like a small thing but both druid and monk and druid have alchemy in common.  alchemy enhances potion use, so while atheletics is an obvious skill choice for any melee combatant, alchemy looks to be the real winner as one levels a bit.  can functional start with 3 in alchemy depending on background choice.  is a likely overlooked benefit.

 

with the bear spirit shift, Gromnir gets an 11 armour rating, and at the moment such armour is conferring near invulnerability.  druids got a number o' excellent cone spells, which we tend not to use often as our squishy casters is sitting behind tanks with wands and tower shields. cone spells is much more likely to be consistent useful when utilized by a front-liner such as our greasy storm bear. (am not one who ordinarily names builds, but such is what we call the bear ascetic we has been testing.) vile thorns is getting regular use from the greasy stom bear, in spite o' the small cone. nice sickened affliction conferred. 12,10,15,15,16,10. is not min-maxed, but is highly effective with corrode wild strike combining (synergizing) effective with the monk's lightning charged swift strikes. under the effect o' a priest's divine favor, am doing ridiculous high damage in bear form.  cast returning storm at start o' combat is near as effective in deadfire as it were in poe.  if our greasy storm bear does take damage and is too far away from a priest to get a restoration or holy radiance targeted on the greasy storm bear, the ascetic's own healing powers is arguable superior to the merc priest's anyways. unlike the priest, the druid has fewer affliction nullifiers in his/her repertoire, but 'tween monk's clarity o' agony and the quick conferred by swift strikes, a mountain dwarf, coastal aumaua or wild orlan is gonna be able to shrug off multiple afflictions... and a wood elf will laugh at any dex affliction targeting 'em. etc.

 

am finding the greasy storm bear to be mild entertaining and thematic appealing in spite o' our tendency to be dismissive of druids. numerous synergies exist 'tween the ascetic classes and with other members o' the mercenary or custom parties.  

 

HA! Good Fun!


Edited by Gromnir, 07 December 2017 - 12:25 PM.


#22
Ninjamestari

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I don't really like the removal of general talents, I think they ought to be in, but I also think that Class talents should use a completely separate pool of points to draw from, so that let's say a class would gain a general talent every even level and a class talent every odd level or so. The talents already existed separately, the only thing that would be needed was to divide them into their own proper pools. That being said, all the other changes I've heard of recently are pure love for me, so I don't really mind this one minor setback.



#23
AndreaColombo

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We’re getting exactly what you mentioned in the next beta build. Unfortunately it comes with a major setback for Fighters (and for the whole game too if Weapon Focus is moved to the general talent pool.)

#24
injurai

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We’re getting exactly what you mentioned in the next beta build. Unfortunately it comes with a major setback for Fighters (and for the whole game too if Weapon Focus is moved to the general talent pool.)

 

I see it as an opportunity to do something else interesting with fighters.



#25
JerekKruger

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I see it as an opportunity to do something else interesting with fighters.

 

Hopefully, but currently Obsidian aren't planning on adding anything to replace the formerly exclusive passives.



#26
Lephys

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Honestly, if "you get bonuses with weapons" is your unique class feature for Fighters, the class probably needs some work. :p

 

Everyone gets to fight with weapons, so everyone should be able to customize their weapon-fighting capabilities, at least somewhat. If the Fighter gets different/better bonuses, then so be it. But "here, have some numerical bonuses to some stuff that everyone gets" has never been a good class-distinguishing factor.


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#27
Ninjamestari

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Honestly, if "you get bonuses with weapons" is your unique class feature for Fighters, the class probably needs some work. :p

 

Everyone gets to fight with weapons, so everyone should be able to customize their weapon-fighting capabilities, at least somewhat. If the Fighter gets different/better bonuses, then so be it. But "here, have some numerical bonuses to some stuff that everyone gets" has never been a good class-distinguishing factor.

 

I have to disagree with you there. I find that passive numerical bonuses often add more to the flavor of characters than special activated abilities. Like CHA saves for Paladins in D&D for example, it's an innate difference rather than just a trick you've learned.



#28
SaruNi

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There are lots of fighter possibilities:

- As several have suggested, a passive which significantly enhances weapon modals 

- Passive which grants additional weapon modals

    - an enhanced two-handed style etc. which grants an interesting additional modal for all two-handed etc.

- enhancements to the stances

- maybe a "disarm" ability if it's not too hard to implement (and enemy AI can pick their weapon / shield / potions / grimoires back up)


Edited by SaruNi, 18 December 2017 - 08:36 AM.


#29
bonarbill

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I personally don't see why they need to do anything  I think fighters are fine right now, especially if their end up with all of their tool from PoE1.  They also have one of the strongest subclasses in the game.


Edited by bonarbill, 18 December 2017 - 10:57 AM.


#30
JerekKruger

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I personally don't see why they need to do anything  I think fighters are fine right now, especially if their end up with all of their tool from PoE1.  They also have one of the strongest subclasses in the game.

 

You're aware of the changes coming in the next beta patch right? A number of currently Fighter exclusive passive abilities are going to be added to the proficiencies, allowing all classes to take them without using one of their ability points. Fighters aren't getting anything to replace this loss, in fact they're still going to be able to take those passives as abilities even though they could take them as proficiencies for free instead



#31
SaruNi

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I personally don't see why they need to do anything  I think fighters are fine right now, especially if their end up with all of their tool from PoE1.  They also have one of the strongest subclasses in the game.

 

You're aware of the changes coming in the next beta patch right? A number of currently Fighter exclusive passive abilities are going to be added to the proficiencies, allowing all classes to take them without using one of their ability points. Fighters aren't getting anything to replace this loss, in fact they're still going to be able to take those passives as abilities even though they could take them as proficiencies for free instead

 

 

Wouldn't be so bad if you could take both and they stacked... but I'd prefer something more interesting.



#32
bonarbill

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I personally don't see why they need to do anything  I think fighters are fine right now, especially if their end up with all of their tool from PoE1.  They also have one of the strongest subclasses in the game.

 

You're aware of the changes coming in the next beta patch right? A number of currently Fighter exclusive passive abilities are going to be added to the proficiencies, allowing all classes to take them without using one of their ability points. Fighters aren't getting anything to replace this loss, in fact they're still going to be able to take those passives as abilities even though they could take them as proficiencies for free instead

 

 

I'm aware since I have been watching the streams and I still don't see the problem as long as fighters still have all of their abilities from PoE1 in the end.  # of abilities doesn't determine a class usefulness.


Edited by bonarbill, 19 December 2017 - 03:43 AM.


#33
Ninjamestari

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I agree with bonarbill here. You can't determine balance by watching arbitrary stuff like the number of exclusive abilities and such, you have to be able to observe the class in the complete metagame and the truly important part is whether or not the class will offer something unique that other classes do not. I like the idea that fighters don't really have anything special abut them, but that they learn a lot of fighting maneuvers and as such are extremely versatile in combat situations. I think giving the basic fighter some unique magical "soul"- ability kinda ruins the fantasy for me, the fantasy of a strong and disciplined person carrying on against all sorts of weird magics and otherworldly powers through sheer combat prowess with the "try casting spells with a sword in your throat" mentality.



#34
Lephys

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I have to disagree with you there. I find that passive numerical bonuses often add more to the flavor of characters than special activated abilities. Like CHA saves for Paladins in D&D for example, it's an innate difference rather than just a trick you've learned.

 

I feel you might have overshot my point. I don't mean that everyone's passive math should be identical, and all the differences should only be active, unique abilities. However, IF you were to go with either extreme, for example, I'd rather have all the classes with identical base math and different active-use abilities (even if they're passive modals, they're still things that you're actively choosing to employ and time within the tactical combat, etc.), than all the classes have identical active-use options and just wildly different passive math.

 

Ideally, I'd rather have a combination of both, but the options at your disposal are an entirely different facet to gameplay, on top of just "Could I take 3 hits here, or two?" passive factors in the background of whatever else you're already doing. I've always found the traditional Fighter roles to be stupidly restrictive, "You stand here like a slab of beef and take punishment and cleave goblins in twain" notions, when really they should have all kinds of cool stuff to choose from and do, and not just "When you keep doing the same things, even more numbers get crunched!". That's not useless, but it is quite lacking.

 

It's all about the approach. If passive math is intentionally supposed to be THE thing that makes a class a class, I find that to be a horrible idea, because passive math is already a part of/a difference between all the other classes. Whereas, "you can do all kinds of crazy elemental stuff, and other classes cannot" is an actual unique set of options to play with for an elemental caster, as opposed to any other character that isn't an elemental caster. Sure, he's still doing damage, and he still has health and armor and resistances and attack speed and recovery time, but he's doing actual different things with all that math.

 

Axes and arrows are both made of wood and metal, but they're distinctly different ways to employ wood and metal.







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