jaguars4ever Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 What undocumented cap is this ? Armor Count It seems that if you cast AC boosting force powers (e.g. Master Speed or Force Armor), while wearing Jedi/Sith Robes, the increase to AC is capped at 10 For example. So if you put on the Qel Droma for instance (+5), then cast Speed (+4), & then cast Force Armor (+6); You'll still only have AC boost up to 10, not 5+4+6=15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordcecil Posted May 19, 2004 Author Share Posted May 19, 2004 In a shameless bump to my thread I have another proposition, that would be a moderate - but doable- addition. Right now we have dark/light Jedi, how about a neutral Jedi ! I thought about it when playing through the game EVERY decision was based on "whats the most extremely nice thing to do" or "most extremely evil" - why must it all be extreme? Since there are neutral powers thats what would benefit, get a reduction on the FP cost. That way when playing the game I could also play "whats best for me card." Be mean if I want money, be nice if I want quest experience. It could also be real tricky and fun to keep it as close to the center as possible. Its pretty simple to stay on one extreme right now. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shdy314 Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 In a shameless bump to my thread I have another proposition, that would be a moderate - but doable- addition. Right now we have dark/light Jedi, how about a neutral Jedi ! I thought about it when playing through the game EVERY decision was based on "whats the most extremely nice thing to do" or "most extremely evil" - why must it all be extreme? Since there are neutral powers thats what would benefit, get a reduction on the FP cost. That way when playing the game I could also play "whats best for me card." Be mean if I want money, be nice if I want quest experience. It could also be real tricky and fun to keep it as close to the center as possible. Its pretty simple to stay on one extreme right now. Just a thought. Its not hard to stay neutral. Never be too good. Don't do quests for no reward but don't kill people left and right. Do force choke and dominate mind to show your superiority and promise vengeance against evil but Don't plot the deaths of lightside characters. The benefit of being neutral is casting any power without negative force cost. This is balanced so good characters run out quickly using anything but good powers and vice versa fore evil ones but a neutral Jedi runs out just as fast casting any powers he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniggy Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 In a shameless bump to my thread I have another proposition, that would be a moderate - but doable- addition. Right now we have dark/light Jedi, how about a neutral Jedi ! there are no neutral jedi by definition. they may stay neutral in planetary or cultural affairs- but they are goody good-doers. the "neutral" or "grey" jedi as often stated are those that have strayed aside from the jedi path but have not (yet) fallen to the dark side. if you wanna play a cynic- just act like one throughout the game. lying and working for personal gain is ok- harming others is not. that way, you'll stay about as neutral as it gets. It's very hard to be polite if you're a cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shdy314 Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 In a shameless bump to my thread I have another proposition, that would be a moderate - but doable- addition. Right now we have dark/light Jedi, how about a neutral Jedi ! there are no neutral jedi by definition. they may stay neutral in planetary or cultural affairs- but they are goody good-doers. the "neutral" or "grey" jedi as often stated are those that have strayed aside from the jedi path but have not (yet) fallen to the dark side. if you wanna play a cynic- just act like one throughout the game. lying and working for personal gain is ok- harming others is not. that way, you'll stay about as neutral as it gets. That's just what the Jedi council WANT you to believe. That there is no way but their way. Their as bad as the Sith. Luke and the NJO are different. Kyle Katarn is definitely a neutral Jedi for example. And he doesnt have to get constant lectures from Luke on what it means to be lightside. Jolee is another neutral Jedi. Luke seemed very much like a more neutral Jedi in the OT. Don't be fooled by GL making SW kiddy friendly with black and white. Shades of gray are best. I'm not even going to get into the millions of arguments I've seen on what constitutes neutral behavior and Jedi action in movies and whether this is good or bad behavior. I do think GL has made the Jedi more neutral in the new movies. They don't fight for "good" unless ordered to by the Republic. They let slavery exist on a planet and do nothing to save Anakin's mother and seem to believe in expressing no emotion at all. They might as well be robots. Let's have some Jedi that act like frigging people. (Like in the NJO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniggy Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 That's just what the Jedi council WANT you to believe. no- that is something that defines the jedi. look into the time before exar kun. the jedi set forth to the caamasi and asked them what to do with those powers. they were advised to use it to do good and so they have for many many centuries. Luke and the NJO are different. Kyle Katarn is definitely a neutral Jedi for example. And he doesnt have to get constant lectures from Luke on what it means to be lightside. because skywalker saw that the order had indeed made mistakes in the past. he rather liked the idea of the old order- with watchmen in various sectors and jedi masters having own branches of the force, only holding convocations once in a while. it doesn't have to do with neutrality- it's just a matter of organization Jolee is another neutral Jedi. talk to jolee during the game and you'll see why he isn't neutral. he says of himself that he is no jedi! doing good defines a jedi as doing evil defines a sith Luke seemed very much like a more neutral Jedi in the OT. Don't be fooled by GL making SW kiddy friendly with black and white. Shades of gray are best. because he was no jedi up until the last movie- there he behaved like a jedi would. besides, i am not talking about the movies. this is all expanded universe. read the books and the comics. take a look at the roleplaying material. Jedi more neutral in the new movies. They don't fight for "good" unless ordered to by the Republic. that's exactly the reason why the order goes down. they're too tied up with the republic. jedi such as dooku and others split with the order for exactly that reason. and just because of this, skywalker did not want to tie too closely with the new republic- even though his sister was one of its heads. that's also the reason why the new order split into two fractions: durron wanted to aid the republic while skywalker wanted to concentrate on the rebuilding of the order. even after the yuuzhan vong invasion, skywalker didn't tie the order to the new galactic alliance. the jedi order should remain independent of other agencies. if you read the "old republic" tales, you'll see that the jedi cry "for the republic" and not "for the force" or something similar. they become the guardians of the republic, not an order that strives for the unifying force. that's the mistake skywalker has realized and does not intend to do again. They let slavery exist on a planet you are talking about changing a whole culture. who gives you the right to do so? slavery is legal in hutt space which consists of hundreds of planets and trillions of sentients. do you just go there and say "what you do is wrong"? no you don't because it is accepted in their culture. it is not evil. the jedi realize this. same in the roman empire- slavery was legal and widely accepted. treating your slaves and servants badly however was shunned upon in public. the same thing here. to believe in expressing no emotion at all. there is no emotion... this is one of the most basic facts about jedi. this is -again- what defines jedi. those who do not follow this are force adepts or sith. besides, there are other force traditions besides those of the jedi. the kel dor have monks who are force wielders for example. the witches of dathomir also wield the force. BUT a jedi is exactly like the "friggin people" you have mentioned. so what you should ask the devs for instead is a force adept class. It's very hard to be polite if you're a cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I think a lot of people gloss over the fact that KOTOR 1 actually had a Force Adept NPC basically. That option was also open to you. If you felt constrained by the Jedi Order, and didn't want to embrace the sith either, you could alternate between good and evil deeds as you saw fit. I would like to see more grey response options. I know the setting of Star Wars is more spaghetti western in dividing good and evil, but if the player wants to play grey, let them. They won't receive the lower "mana" costs of light and dark side powers by being associated with light or dark. And am I the only person in the world who doesn't care for a "mana" style system used with the Force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shdy314 Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 no- that is something that defines the jedi. look into the time before exar kun. the jedi set forth to the caamasi and asked them what to do with those powers. they were advised to use it to do good and so they have for many many centuries. I'm not going into an argument on what defines "good" behavior. because skywalker saw that the order had indeed made mistakes in the past. he rather liked the idea of the old order- with watchmen in various sectors and jedi masters having own branches of the force, only holding convocations once in a while. it doesn't have to do with neutrality- it's just a matter of organization It is NOT just a matter of organisation. As you point out in the rest of your post Luke has a whole different outlook on how the NJO should be set up. This is a fundamental difference and any fundamental difference you make to any organisation will change the way that organization operates. The best example being Luke gets rid of that BS of not being allowed to love and marry. talk to jolee during the game and you'll see why he isn't neutral. he says of himself that he is no jedi! doing good defines a jedi as doing evil defines a sith Like I have't talked to Jolee? I've had every conversation with him. He is a NEUTRAL Jedi. He defied the council's wishes and taught his wife. He was a smuggler and believed in breaking laws to help people. Good Republic laws no less. The worst thing people do is paint the Jedi as virtous paladins and Sith as anti-paladins. They can be so much more. It should be about the individual not the group. because he was no jedi up until the last movie- there he behaved like a jedi would. besides, i am not talking about the movies. this is all expanded universe. read the books and the comics. take a look at the roleplaying material. I'm sorry was he being a Jedi when he was screaming in rage and beating Vader down? Or taking out Jabba the Hutt who according to an argument you make in this post does have the right to have Han imprisoned. I'll grant you he had barely any formal Jedi training but he's still using the force. But he doesn't go to the dark side and join Vader. Why not? I've read a few books. Seen the EU. Roleplayed a little. Forgive me for liking complexity and real human emotion when I RP. that's exactly the reason why the order goes down. they're too tied up with the republic. jedi such as dooku and others split with the order for exactly that reason. and just because of this, skywalker did not want to tie too closely with the new republic- even though his sister was one of its heads. that's also the reason why the new order split into two fractions: Durron wanted to aid the republic while skywalker wanted to concentrate on the rebuilding of the order. even after the yuuzhan vong invasion, skywalker didn't tie the order to the new galactic alliance. the jedi order should remain independent of other agencies. if you read the "old republic" tales, you'll see that the jedi cry "for the republic" and not "for the force" or something similar. they become the guardians of the republic, not an order that strives for the unifying force. that's the mistake skywalker has realized and does not intend to do again. Well obviously I totally agree with this. Jedi should be independent agents. I said as much in my post. you are talking about changing a whole culture. who gives you the right to do so? slavery is legal in hutt space which consists of hundreds of planets and trillions of sentients. do you just go there and say "what you do is wrong"? no you don't because it is accepted in their culture. it is not evil. the jedi realize this.same in the roman empire- slavery was legal and widely accepted. treating your slaves and servants badly however was shunned upon in public. the same thing here. HA! Sorry but this is the dumbest argument ever. What about the Sith's culture? Hmmm? I have the right to do so because their culture is wrong! That's right it's wrong. Just as wrong as the Sith slaughtering anyone they wview as weaker than thmselves. How in the hell can the Jedi motto be to do good bt we wont fight evil unless it comes a knocking on our door and tries to kill us? A hero does not accept the world around him. He fights to change it for the better. You want to argue slavery isn't evil to the Jedi? If they are supposed to do good with their powers as they were told by the caamasi then how is it going to make Obi and Quigon darksiders to save one frigging woman from slavery? Is Luke wrong to go save Han? He did owe Jabba money. Jabba probably had the right to do whatever he wanted to him under Hutt law. Same to anyone that tried to free him. Moral relativity is a joke. And if the Jedi ever started following it it is no wonder they became the pansys they are in EP1 and 2. You think it was ok for the Romans to have slaves? Bet those slaves didn't think so. What about their culture and rights? That's disgusting for you to try and defend slavery in any form. Even if it is simulated. Oh but the Romans frowned on treating them poorly in public. That makes it ok. It was only frowned on because it meant you couldn't control your slave. There is no emotion... this is one of the most basic facts about jedi. this is -again- what defines Jedi. Those who do not follow this are force adepts or sith. besides, there are other force traditions besides those of the jedi. the kel dor have monks who are force wielders for example. the witches of dathomir also wield the force. BUT a jedi is exactly like the "friggin people" you have mentioned. And as Jolee says (maybe YOU didn't talk to him) that's a big mistake. Their human beings. No amount of training or brainwashing is going to turn them into Vulcans(though even they don't always have full control over their emotions). No wonder Jedi always fall to the dark side. It's hard to fight your humanity every second of your life. And it's something Luke changes. Once again the best evidence being his marrying Mara Jade. Which I don't consider "organization." You can alter some of the basic teachings of the Jedi to be more realistic and they will still be Jedi. Jedi are whatever that group decides to call themselves. They don't have to change their name from Jedi to something else when Luke decides that Jedi can marry. Sure there are other force using classes but Jedi are doomed if they continue with their there is no emotion BS. I think what it is supposed to represent is control of your emotions. But somewhere along the line this became twisted into ignoring your emotions. I don't care what other force using classes do. Though it's interesting that they could not follow the tenets of the Jedi and not fall to the dark side dont you think? Very thought provoking that the Jedi way may not be the only GOOD way. so what you should ask the devs for instead is a force adept class. Nah I don't need to ask for anything. You can already play a neutral Jedi in KOTOR. Don't see why this should change in KOTOR 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC9 Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 You think it was ok for the Romans to have slaves? Bet those slaves didn't think so. What about their culture and rights? That's disgusting for you to try and defend slavery in any form. Even if it is simulated. Oh but the Romans frowned on treating them poorly in public. That makes it ok. It was only frowned on because it meant you couldn't control your slave. Actually, most cultures in Roman times didn't have a problem with slavery, any more than they believed in universal rights. Slaves might not have wanted to be slaves, but that's not the same thing as believing slavery itself to be wrong. Sure, you can say that Roman civilization was evil. (Any society where a head of household has the right to have his children executed at will, for any reason or no reason at all, strikes me as a bit questionable). But can you prove it to the Romans? The Jedi are already unaccountable. I don't think going about ordering the normal folks to change their ways would be a good thing for their order in the long run. As for the Jolee business -- can we make a distinction between having Jedi levels and being a member of the Jedi Order, please? (Drakron says that's impossible under D20 rules, but who cares? Not Bio.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shdy314 Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 You think it was ok for the Romans to have slaves? Bet those slaves didn't think so. What about their culture and rights? That's disgusting for you to try and defend slavery in any form. Even if it is simulated. Oh but the Romans frowned on treating them poorly in public. That makes it ok. It was only frowned on because it meant you couldn't control your slave. Actually, most cultures in Roman times didn't have a problem with slavery, any more than they believed in universal rights. Slaves might not have wanted to be slaves, but that's not the same thing as believing slavery itself to be wrong. Sure, you can say that Roman civilization was evil. (Any society where a head of household has the right to have his children executed at will, for any reason or no reason at all, strikes me as a bit questionable). But can you prove it to the Romans? The Jedi are already unaccountable. I don't think going about ordering the normal folks to change their ways would be a good thing for their order in the long run. As for the Jolee business -- can we make a distinction between having Jedi levels and being a member of the Jedi Order, please? (Drakron says that's impossible under D20 rules, but who cares? Not Bio.) I know most cultures didn't have a problem with it. America didn't have a problem with it for a long time either. Sure as hell doesn't make it right. Moral relativism is stupid. But we are talking about SW not ancient rights and values. You are never going to convince me that the Jedi would go darkside if they "disrespected" Hutt culture. The Hutts are freaking crime bosses! Yeah it'd be so evil to stop smuggling, slavery, murder, etc. Those evil Jedi forcing their beliefs on everyone else. Maybe a bad example since he went DS but I thought it was extremely kewl to learn I had helped Juhani and broke up a slave auction on my way to the Mandalorian wars. That was when I thought. FINALLY! A little proof I can redeem myself. I wasn't always DARTH Revan. Drakron is a bit of a stickler for the rules. I am more willing to go with my imagination and if there's a good backstory behind it I say allow it. Lots of people were stickler for the rules in DnD 2nd edition and screamed bloody murder if you tried to make a half orc paladin and things like that. But really who wants to be the same old thief for the 100 times. The interesting characters are the ones that haven't been done a thousand times before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC9 Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I know most cultures didn't have a problem with it. America didn't have a problem with it for a long time either. Sure as hell doesn't make it right. Moral relativism is stupid. But we are talking about SW not ancient rights and values. You are never going to convince me that the Jedi would go darkside if they "disrespected" Hutt culture. The Hutts are freaking crime bosses! Yeah it'd be so evil to stop smuggling, slavery, murder, etc. Those evil Jedi forcing their beliefs on everyone else. Maybe a bad example since he went DS but I thought it was extremely kewl to learn I had helped Juhani and broke up a slave auction on my way to the Mandalorian wars. That was when I thought. FINALLY! A little proof I can redeem myself. I wasn't always DARTH Revan. Moral relativism is an observable fact. Different cultures have different values. You can assert that your values are better than other values. In fact, you should do that - if you don't assert your values, why do you have them? You may even prevail in the political struggle to have your values enforced, instead of other values. But that just proves that you've won. It doesn't show that your values are objectively better. As for the Jedi, I'd argue that setting yourselves above the law is inherently DS, even if you're doing it to promote the LS. It's also terrible in terms of practical politics. Do you really think common people would take well to having their laws and cultures judged by an unaccountable elite of mystics who take their guidance from some source that an ordinary man has no contact with? That'd only be workable if you set up some sort of Jedi theocracy, and brought the common folks into the church. It's conceivable, but the Republic doesn't work that way. In the real world, we don't expect Catholic priests to bomb abortion clinics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shdy314 Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Moral relativism is an observable fact. Different cultures have different values. You can assert that your values are better than other values. In fact, you should do that - if you don't assert your values, why do you have them? You may even prevail in the political struggle to have your values enforced, instead of other values. But that just proves that you've won. It doesn't show that your values are objectively better. As for the Jedi, I'd argue that setting yourselves above the law is inherently DS, even if you're doing it to promote the LS. It's also terrible in terms of practical politics. Do you really think common people would take well to having their laws and cultures judged by an unaccountable elite of mystics who take their guidance from some source that an ordinary man has no contact with? That'd only be workable if you set up some sort of Jedi theocracy, and brought the common folks into the church. It's conceivable, but the Republic doesn't work that way. In the real world, we don't expect Catholic priests to bomb abortion clinics. HA! Your entire argument is flawed. As you said of course you should attempt to prevail your beliefs on others or why have them? Well do the Jedi believe slavery is wrong or not? If they think it is justifiable that is just sick. And inaction is just as bad as condoning it. Moral Relativism is true to the extent different cultures have different values but after recognizing that people have to accept that their belief is better or switch to whichever they think is best. You can't just let each culture be or the Jedi would be evil to attack the Sith. Heroes do NOT say oh slavery is despicable but it's legal on this Hutt planet so I better try to help a single slave in anyway or Ill slip to the dark side. That's insane. Oh ok so the Civil War just meant the North was stronger. If the South had won it would still be OK to have slaves. Yeah, it's easy for you to talk all abstract about something completely dehumanizing and evil I think your views would be a little more realistic if you or someone you knew had ever dealt with slavery. Know anyone that's ever been raped? In some countries men aren't persecuted for it so it must be ok right? Depends on what law you set yourself above? Hutt law? Don't make me laugh. Is smuggling medical supplies to refugees truly evil. Yep i can see how that person would definitely be a Sith. Heroes which I like to think the Jedi are supposed to be, try to make people's lives better. Not maintain the status quo everywhere. Hmmm do I think practical people would take well to having their laws and cultures judged by an unnaccountable elite of mystics? Well ignoring the broad ignorance of that sweeping statement I would say it has to be judged on a case by case basis. First of all should the Jedi care if Hutt crimelords consider them to be a pain in their backside because they keep stopping their weapons smuggling? Hmmm you know what I guess not. Might all the people being adversely affected by it be grateful? Yes I think so. I am not saying the Jedi should sweep down as an army on planets and purge them of everything they consider evil and rewrite all the laws etc. I am saying if two Jedi stumble across two slaves on an Outer Rim world taking only the child because he is useful and leaving the mother behind is evil. No way around it. Yeah. Jedi saving two slaves is like priests bombing abortion clinis. You try to argue with the most insane of analogies. The Jedi should have their own code. Maybe something along the lines of defending truth and justice throughout the galaxy. Geez, that'd be nice. Of course we can't defend them if their not on a core world. Oh but wait what if a cult arises on Coruscant worshipping the Sith and wants to separate? What should we do? It'd be wrong not to accept their different beliefs. <_< Whatever let's see what you want to say next to argue slavery isn't inherently good or evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordcecil Posted May 19, 2004 Author Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hay you guys, whats going on here! I think my thread totally just got hijacked. How about we just end the argument and agree more grey choices would be useful? I don't wanna kill the nice lady and steal her wraid plate, but I may also not want to get her 500/700 credits just to be a nice guy. So anyways, how bout some more dev responses eh? I've been a total lamer and kept this bumped when it scrolled off the main page to ensure all the devs got a nice look at it. Besides, I'm sure they passed such an incredible and awe inspiring list amongst themselves once someone discovered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC9 Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 HA! Your entire argument is flawed. As you said of course you should attempt to prevail your beliefs on others or why have them? Well do the Jedi believe slavery is wrong or not? If they think it is justifiable that is just sick. And inaction is just as bad as condoning it. Moral Relativism is true to the extent different cultures have different values but after recognizing that people have to accept that their belief is better or switch to whichever they think is best. You can't just let each culture be or the Jedi would be evil to attack the Sith. Heroes do NOT say oh slavery is despicable but it's legal on this Hutt planet so I better try to help a single slave in anyway or Ill slip to the dark side. That's insane. Oh ok so the Civil War just meant the North was stronger. If the South had won it would still be OK to have slaves. Yeah, it's easy for you to talk all abstract about something completely dehumanizing and evil I think your views would be a little more realistic if you or someone you knew had ever dealt with slavery. Know anyone that's ever been raped? In some countries men aren't persecuted for it so it must be ok right? Depends on what law you set yourself above? Hutt law? Don't make me laugh. Is smuggling medical supplies to refugees truly evil. Yep i can see how that person would definitely be a Sith. Heroes which I like to think the Jedi are supposed to be, try to make people's lives better. Not maintain the status quo everywhere. Hmmm do I think practical people would take well to having their laws and cultures judged by an unnaccountable elite of mystics? Well ignoring the broad ignorance of that sweeping statement I would say it has to be judged on a case by case basis. First of all should the Jedi care if Hutt crimelords consider them to be a pain in their backside because they keep stopping their weapons smuggling? Hmmm you know what I guess not. Might all the people being adversely affected by it be grateful? Yes I think so. I am not saying the Jedi should sweep down as an army on planets and purge them of everything they consider evil and rewrite all the laws etc. I am saying if two Jedi stumble across two slaves on an Outer Rim world taking only the child because he is useful and leaving the mother behind is evil. No way around it. Yeah. Jedi saving two slaves is like priests bombing abortion clinis. You try to argue with the most insane of analogies. The Jedi should have their own code. Maybe something along the lines of defending truth and justice throughout the galaxy. Geez, that'd be nice. Of course we can't defend them if their not on a core world. Oh but wait what if a cult arises on Coruscant worshipping the Sith and wants to separate? What should we do? It'd be wrong not to accept their different beliefs. <_< Whatever let's see what you want to say next to argue slavery isn't inherently good or evil. You know, repeating that slavery is evil isn't really worth the effort. I think there's a consensus that slavery's evil. Here, now, on 21st century Earth. It doesn't appear that the Republic has achieved that consensus by the time of Ep.1. Anyway, good and evil aren't the appropriate terms here. Lets say light side and dark side. At least those have objective content, thanks to George. Believing that something is DS does not necessarily imply that you have the right to use extralegal means to interfere with it. I'm sure the Jedi do believe that slavery is from the Dark Side. But does that mean that they have a duty to break the law to interfere with it? If that principle has a limit, where is it? You say that the Jedi aren't above the law, but you also say that they ought to break the law in certain cases. So specify which cases. Let's have a nice clear objective principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniggy Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 no- that is something that defines the jedi. look into the time before exar kun. the jedi set forth to the caamasi and asked them what to do with those powers. they were advised to use it to do good and so they have for many many centuries. I'm not going into an argument on what defines "good" behavior. if you don't wanna discuss- what the hell are you doing on the board? It is NOT just a matter of organisation. As you point out in the rest of your post Luke has a whole different outlook on how the NJO should be set up. care to enlighten me what you mean by setting up then? skywalker does not have issues with the jedi teachings, but with the organisation and relationships of the order. thats it. gets rid of that BS of not being allowed to love and marry. that wasn't forbidden in the order. 40 years before kotor, there were two cathar who were engaged. 10 years before episode1, qui gon was engaged to another jedi master. Like I have't talked to Jolee? I've had every conversation with him. He is a NEUTRAL Jedi. there are NO neutral jedi. he left the order on his own accord since he didn't feel like a jedi anymore. he made mistakes- so he left. The worst thing people do is paint the Jedi as virtous paladins and Sith as anti-paladins. They can be so much more. It should be about the individual not the group. maybe that's what it SHOULD be- but it isnt. star wars was always about the conflict of good vs. evil. paladin vs. anti-paladin. jedi vs. sith. jedi WERE virtous- but yes, they also made individual mistakes. revan made a mistake and it cost a lot of people their lives. I'm sorry was he being a Jedi when he was screaming in rage and beating Vader down? yes- one on the verge of falling to the dark side. but as you might remember- he stopped himself in time. Or taking out Jabba the Hutt who according to an argument you make in this post does have the right to have Han imprisoned. you are twisting my words- 1. han was not a slave, he was a smuggler who owed money to a hutt crime lord. 2. skywalker gave jabba the chance to let them go- he said "you're making a big mistake, jabba". what DO you expect from someone who's trying to get a friend back? I'll grant you he had barely any formal Jedi training but he's still using the force. But he doesn't go to the dark side and join Vader. Why not? I've read a few books. Seen the EU. Roleplayed a little. Forgive me for liking complexity and real human emotion when I RP. because- as he states in his own words "i am a jedi- as my father before me". he knows that his only chance to beat the emperor is to redeem his father. this by the way is something that Lucas himself says. star wars (all six episodes) is mainly about the life of anakin skywalker / lord vader. he becomes the greatest jedi of his time- falls to the dark side - and is redeemed by the last jedi of that time, who becomes the first master of a new order HA! Sorry but this is the dumbest argument ever. What about the Sith's culture? Hmmm? I have the right to do so because their culture is wrong! That's right it's wrong. Just as wrong as the Sith slaughtering anyone they wview as weaker than thmselves. How in the hell can the Jedi motto be to do good bt we wont fight evil unless it comes a knocking on our door and tries to kill us? you can compare slavery to genocide if you wish- no problem with that. hutts aren't the only ones keeping slaves. the "sith culture" has been beaten down by the jedi because they were literally trying to kill everyone else- like the yuuzhan vong. slavery by the way is itself not an evil thing If they are supposed to do good with their powers as they were told by the caamasi then how is it going to make Obi and Quigon darksiders to save one frigging woman from slavery? you are completely misunderstanding what i have been writing about. jedi do NOT force others to see things their way. trying to do so pushes you to the dark side. trying dominating others minds in kotor and you will see at what times this gives you DS points and when it doesn't. travelling through hutt space, visiting every slave-owner and forcing them to accept YOUR GOODY GOOD JEDI VIEWS IS AN EVIL ACT. you do not use the force to do stuff like that. Is Luke wrong to go save Han? He did owe Jabba money. Jabba probably had the right to do whatever he wanted to him under Hutt law. jabba did not give solo the chance to pay him back. he did not accept explanations. read the books / comics between the movies and you'll see why skywalker was right about freeing solo You think it was ok for the Romans to have slaves? see- THAT is the whole point. it isn't important whether I think it's right. in their culture- it was ok. jedi use their powers for defence- never aggressively. they do not go to the hutts and say- you there! stop having slaves. they are or have been passive in that way. as skywalker says, his school / academy is a place of action. he takes up the old principles of the jedi (old republic time) and counters threats actively instead of waiting for invitations. at the same time- he doesn't invade other peoples cultures. That's disgusting for you to try and defend slavery in any form. Even if it is simulated. Oh but the Romans frowned on treating them poorly in public. That makes it ok. It was only frowned on because it meant you couldn't control your slave. see- a roman would have had no problems with this. just like so many other cultures in history. we are also talking about alien cultures in kotor, but you are involving human emotions and the principles we uphold in THIS world and THIS time. we're talking fantasy universe here, so don't forget that this is all fiction and there are billions of sentions in this fiction to whom slavery is perfectly fine. just because you want to project your principles and thoughts on the jedi- a fictional, religious "force" wielding organization doesn't mean the jedi have to be the way you think. again, i am MERELY STATING whatever is writtin in various books and comics or what is to be seen in movies. if it makes you feel better, i'll include quotes and point to the specific places in the sources i know. And as Jolee says (maybe YOU didn't talk to him) that's a big mistake. Their human beings. No amount of training right- i forgot. master yoda is a human being. just like many other alien masters of whom some did not even have emotions comparable to those humans might have. this isn't about "training" "brainwashing" etc. it's about a certain view of the world. take buddhist monks in our world, if you find fiction that hard to believe. these guys can set themselves up in flames. live for years without what you might call love or anger or fear... does that make them LESS human? you have a very single-minded definition of humanity. ever been to africa? try visit that place sometime. it's like a different world. people have completely different principles. in some places, it's ok to sell your child just like selling cattle. now, is that good or bad? to you, this is wrong. but that is the same state of mind all conquerors had in history. you don't get it, do you? your principles might not be true for others. Once again the best evidence being his marrying Mara Jade. once again- jedi have been marrying for centuries. it is NOT welcomed and it is not liked in the order as it gives way to passion and fear. yet, as jolee says- passion is not the same thing as love. Jedi are whatever that group decides to call themselves. there is a certain order that has been following certain principles for thousands of years. they call themselves jedi and have a rigid set of rules. i don't know what jedi you are talking about but the ones i mean are the ones from the books, the comics, the roleplaying systems and the movies around something vaguely called "star wars" Though it's interesting that they could not follow the tenets of the Jedi and not fall to the dark side dont you think? that's the point- force traditions without the distinction didn't become nearly as powerful. it was either light side or dark side. someone following either of those became powerful. others have not. there's a reason as to why other force traditions haven't become that wide-spread. Very thought provoking that the Jedi way may not be the only GOOD way. unfortunately, they are. now, you can argue again with me on this. but again i will simply just point you to various books. take a look at "power of the jedi" and "hero's handbook" from wizards. or take a look at starwars.com if you don't believe me. i'm merely repeating what i read- no need to get upset about it. It's very hard to be polite if you're a cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniggy Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 You know, repeating that slavery is evil isn't really worth the effort. I think there's a consensus that slavery's evil. Here, now, on 21st century Earth. It doesn't appear that the Republic has achieved that consensus by the time of Ep.1. my point exactly. we (i mean as forum users, including me) think that slavery is evil and we are right about it. HOWEVER, to some cultures in star wars, it's perfectly ok. the jedi came to accept this fact. it actually says in one of the new books (jedi padawan- would have to look up the number though). there's a story of a jedi and his padawan being on some hutt outpost, talking to hutts while their slaves are bringing refreshments to the jedi. the padawan is surprised to see his master handle the matter of slaves in republic space so freely. weeks later, the two trade with a fringer and witness him hitting his slave- the master immediately draws his saber and threatens the fringer, then frees the slave of his former master. the padawan is confused. the master explains that while slavery is natural to hutt culture- the fringer had no right to abuse his slave as it was not a commonly accepted phenomenon in that culture. twisted logic? maybe. the jedi HAS a point though. Believing that something is DS does not necessarily imply that you have the right to use extralegal means to interfere with it. I'm sure the Jedi do believe that slavery is from the Dark Side. But does that mean that they have a duty to break the law to interfere with it? If that principle has a limit, where is it? You say that the Jedi aren't above the law, but you also say that they ought to break the law in certain cases. So specify which cases. Let's have a nice clear objective principle. exactly. one problem the jedi had was the close relationship to the republic and republic laws. but that is something that was in effect for 20.000 years. the pre-old republic jedi were still in search of a purpose. whether they picked the right one is open to debat. rest see example above. again- this is stuff written in canon material. if you don't believe me, i'll go through the trouble of looking up the exact spot. It's very hard to be polite if you're a cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabit06 Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 .....I left of a point where I thought you should have become leader to the Sith Academy I agree with the academy leader idea, but you could expand more into that and have side quests for the academy (nothing big just the typical run here do this type of thing) that are humorous. Also each prestige class can have its own hideout / cheesy yoda-cave / academy ala BGII. Sorry if this is already mentioned, i didnt read the whole thread. PS containers in KotoR are not even worth opening(to dam slow animation and i dont want to take it all!!!!! :angry: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saberist Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 Lord Cecil, >> I made a few suggestions the other night and realized how much more there was to add to that list. So I made a new character to try and solo KOTOR, got two star maps before I decided I didn't like some choices, but in that time I compiled a pretty nice list. I've got them semi-organized, but its kind of hard to rank this kind of thing. Just know that this is not made for discussion or for anyone to disagree with me. This is more of a list for the devs to look over as a to-do list. The more they can implement the better the game will be. Its a little late in development for some stuff, but thats ok. Also note my old suggestions have been included here as well, for good measure. >> Quite a list. >> ***Delusions of Grandeur*** -More animations. At least three per feat (one for each level of flurry for example). When you advance to a higher tier still use the old animations, just make it random. Right now you see the EXACT same animation every time you attack if you just use feats (like you shuold) >> Definitely. But IMO, this is not enough. Each system needs to be based on a _kata_ which includes say 2-4 strokes to start. Then as you get better, MORE strokes are added. By learning from a master. Up and down a mat, lift blade, drop blade, step aside, turn, horizontal slash! Etc. etc. >> -Evil path is lame, fix it. Too much random killing for no benefit. Fallout 2, thats an evil game, but you guys should know that, follow your past example. Working for slavers, marrying some ho you got caught sleeping with, selling ho to slavers, then killing the slavers for loot/money is evil in its purest form. >> IMO, what is 'lame' is that you cannot be sarcastic (even if some characters only /respond/ to a 'hard hand and droll voice') without darksiding yourself. THAT is wrong. There should be 'fate moments' in every game where an action you take or an action you -inspire others- to take causes major LS/DS 'motivation' changes. But telling Atton not to try anything 'funny' when clearly you don't have the Force Senses to KNOW when he is doing so is actually kind, because it lets him know that the leash is short and if he wants to live, he'd better be nice. Since you don't necessarily want to kill him. IMO, true Darkside behaviors are those which can only be modified (for a Jedi anyway) by abuse of The Force. Using Force Persuade to 'compell' someone (screaming, hands to temples, "Get out of my mind!") to do something which either their interactive discussioin cue is not ready for yet (giving you an unfair advantage in the game but forever isolating you from further beneficial chat) or which they normally wouldn't do because it is against their character morals. >> -Too often I do something and I don't know why. On Kashykkkhskahk I did the entire quest in the forest about killing the legendary monster and getting the blade stuck in its side before I had even heard about it. That kind of thing happens through the entire game. >> Side quests are generally lame in a military setting because they don't alter or improve the status of The War At Hand. Look at Desert Storm. That was a battle decided in about 3 days after a 30 day air campaign. Assume that, with their technology, the Sith and Republic can do better. You CANNOT isolate major force or Force capabilities on 'boy scout' missions in that kind of a scenario. Because (given realistic travel times, on foot) you could literally lose 2-3 KEY systems before you got back from your first 'get granny across the street' sidequest. K2 is better because there is not the sense of urgency and you are in fact playing more like a hardboiled detective in a 1930's-40's Marlowe type drama. Talking to people to identify the threat and chase it down on a psycho serial killer type basis. Such doesn't excuse the notion however that you cannot _stand there_ while potentially another Katarr is happening because that too is _Darkside_ slothful/fearful behavior. I would -much- rather have a 'choose your own adventure' type scenario in which the plotroad forks and you can either choose the 'woods are lovely, dark and deep' or the more standardized escalation towards major boss-enemy or moral motivation challenges. Perhaps challenges where, for personal power, you have to be willing to lose major 'supporting actor' characters. >> -Side games should be important, challenging, and rewarding. Right now the only reward is money. First rework Pazaak like this. Each time you win the max bet increases (25->50->100->250->500 etc...), then each world the top player has a maximum that when you win your the champ of that planet. If you lose you have to start over. That prevents save/load/load/load/save repeat. When you become the champ on all planets you should get invited to a high stakes galactic tournament, that would be most excellent. It should be optional and the prize should be some newfangled item (special lightsaber crystal perhaps?). Swoop racing, ughh, it was better in SotE for the N64. Make it an actual race against people and follow the same champion everywhere/galactic tournament theory. Its good to have long time consuming OPTIONAL side-quests with big payoffs. Right now they are only another way to get money if you need it. >> Side games should be ALL ABOUT _money_. I don't mind high ticket items. But I should be able to sign up for **Republic** contracts (mercenary convoy/diplomatic escort, investigative inquiry, 'peacekeeping' etc.) which fill my coffers with perhaps 20,000 credits at a time PLUS 'loot' incentives on enemy bases etc. It is amazing that all these bad-boy enclaves, where there is absolutely no option for a conventional 'bank account' (which the government could order frozen) have no credits in a strong box type arrangement. AMAZINGLY BAD that is. >> -Doubled bladed lightsaber is utterly useless. Very minor extra damage at the cost of two lightsaber crystals? No way! I propose you let it carry THREE crystals. If you add enough interesting crystals that do more than just +Attack/Damage then it could be a hard decision to put three in one blade or four split up in two blades. This could be tricky to balance but I think its doable. Other options include giving it a unique feat set (dueling/dual wield/staff would be the options then) with special inherent bonuses over dual wielding. Could also increase its minimum (not max) damage to 8 or 10. A more challenging approach would be letting it hit adjacent enemies so you spin around a whole lot, would be a good mob killing tool. >> And so it should be. The light staff is the most worthless weapon Lucas ever came up with. You _cannot_ use it as a conventional staff because you can't shift to a 1/3rd grip point to sweep with. You can't defend your center adequately because the OBVIOUS vulnerability of that extended haft which you are offering up to be cut. You cannot, in 'conventional' grip mode, bring EITHER of the energy blades forward more than about 30-45` or 2ft which means if you stay right in his face and -step with him- as he retreats or advances to turn laterally (footwork, footwork, FOOTWORK!) he cannot 'stab' you through his dead zone at all. Lastly, if you are fighting two people, all's they need to do is step out to the sides and have ONE pin your low blade while the other 'stabs/slashes thru'. And you can't do _squat_ because if you bring the high blade around, the low one will yield to your enemy's attack and you will have your leg sliced out from under you. If you try and 'slide' the blade out of lock, you cannot defend against the second attacker at all. Light staffs are _worthless_. Especially given _Cortosis_ (which should be rarer than hen's teeth) a Naginata/Halberd/Pike type weapon makes more sense since you can either stick the blade out on the end of a long staff, protected by 'sword breaker' type minicross pieces. Or double the length of the blade ONE WAY and use it like a thrusting/spear weapon. With a haft also twice as long, such would make for an incredibly 'leverage advantaged' blade system. >> -Single wielding a lightsaber also sucks big time. +3damage/defense is worthless by the end of the game. Your going to have to increase those values to make it worth while. Perhaps some force powers could only be available if you have a free hand (lightning/grip/etc..) but that would be kind of lame and would piss everyone (including myself) off. It would make you decide between being an all out saber brawler or a force/saber combo though. >> And it always will until they develop kata systems which take advantage of the single wielders ability to increase leverage and shift direction from either a headon or sideon facing direction. Two blades are dangerous but they are also /predictable/ because you have to clear their arcs away from each other and your footwork on the 'leading' blade tends to compromise both reach and speed of the following one so that it is _very easy_ to get into a '1-2' system of attacks. A good single bladed fencer, especially one with 'live hands' can do a LOT MORE to move his body around the arc of a cut and attack the reverse or obverse sides of the hands and knees of a two-blader, 'through the gaps' of his defense. >> ***Gameplay Balance/Changes*** -Bash should either work first try or not at all. Slashing a door ten times is boring. If your strength is high. Same for persuade and other stat rolls. In pen and paper you only get one shot so its ok to involve the roll of a dice. In a computer game if its possible to do something but you fail EVERYONE will just load/retry untill they suceed. nough then give a little prying open / melting lock / slashing lock animation. It would also be nice to see a special animation of someone trying to pry open a door/melt a lock or something aside the regular attack animation. >> I agree. But then again, my opinion is that a saber should be able to cut through -anything- but an active force shield. It's just a matter of whether you have the TIME to do so. Certainly a Jedi who faces off against 20 _realistically_ capable gunners when he could cut a hole in the floor, roof or wall to 'move to the next room over' is a **fool**. That said, there is a 'door cutting gem' listed in the saber crystals for K2 and given that I've never encountered it in the game and my inventory list shows it as 'unrecognized' (you can mount it on a saber but ever after that saber cannot be further modded and indeed disappears from the equippables list) I haven't messed with it. The real danger of course is that if you plunge that much heat into a metal door and and there are ANY impurities or 'bubbles' of oxygenated gap, you will get uneven thermal effects which could easily 'spit back at you'. Gobbets of molten whatever, several thousand degrees in temperature. >> -Higher end grenades are too expensive. 750 for a plasma nade? 2000 for a thermal detonator (I think) Nice when your selling but thats far too much for a one time use item. >> Grenades are worthless. 1. Because nobody would throw rocks in a glass house if the 'great outdoors' was a vacuum. 2. Because they don't kill even nominally unarmored opponents. 3. Because they are NOT USED THE WAY THEY SHOULD BE. Namely, a grenade is a suppression weapon used to 'clear the way' for an assault or to prevent one from 'Chaaaarge!' forming up. You bounce them off floors and around corners to keep them from being picked up. And you use them _preemptively_ to avoid having to fight an overwhelmingly advantaged foe as you come through a chokepoint like an entryway. For all these reasons, I think that grenade use needs to be fully retooled so that you have ENERGY rather than (too like our world) frag effects and those energy yields are _specific_ to a living/droid target type with NO structural damage. A 'thermal detonator' might, for instance, act like the disruptor in JKO/JKA. 'detonating' the thermal neutron bonds between _carbon specific_ based atomic shell structures. And thus obliterating life forms. But not a steel hullplate which had a high silica content. Other things that need to be considered are repulsor powered systems. So that you aren't chucking a 4-6lb object but rather one which has only enough weight to defeat air resistance while exploding at 'chest height' (bouncing betty effect = more targets hit). And the use of distraction device/obscurrant systems which could either be a conventional smoke round or, perhaps through a 'sophisticated' holodisplay, actually REPEAT the background image so that your enemy can't see you walking up that hallway (or scooting across between doors etc.) NOT getting shot at it half the battle. And until you recognize a desire to have a contempt of engagement, with both random (true sniper attacks) and 'designated' opponents, until YOU are ready to begin the fight, you don't understand how grenades really are supposed to work. >> -Energy shields are useless right now. There are several potentially useful ones but they are used up far too quickly. Let them be rechargeable, fancier the shield the more energy cells it takes. >> Energy shields don't belong in the game. Period. Dot. NOBODY LIVING has them in the PT/OT movies. And the only droids which do look like they might weigh the better part of half a ton. Armor should be able to absorb 'class specific' blaster bolts (Pistols, Long Guns and LMG, HMG/Special Purpose Rifle 'heavy weapons') albeit knocking you on your behind at times. Cortosis should be rare. And Sabers should be able to cut through ANYTHING. Shields should not be present but _inertial dampening fields_ along with truly _power actuated_ anthropomorphic assists should be. To stabilize you against the mechanical (blast) effects of both explosives and energy fire impact. And to enable you to LIFT all the weight of the heavier 'assault/demolition' grade armor classes. The difference should be that you also have a 'LAR' or Liquid Ablative Reservoir that functions like our own STF 'liquid glass' armor in becoming stiff and resistant to high shear forces before evaporating and recondensing (at some total percentage loss) while disipating the massive thermal effects of blaster bolts in particular. People are IDIOTS if they think you can somehow 'take damage' (indicating the armor has been pierced) without losing the value of said armor. LAR-as-STF would change this because the implication would be that as long as you had goo left in the reservoir tank, it would both stiffen the outer plate and prevent it from slagging away. Of course having armor that 'glowed' from multiple impacts and 'steamed' as superheated goo vented off would also be a cool graphic mode. AND you could resupply your LAR tank by robbing the enemy dead. Giving you a reason to slow down rather than maintain the pace of the fighting (generally it is stupid to lose contact once made as it leaves you vulnerable to endless 'small ambushes'). >> -Repaired droids are utterly useless. They are scattered throughout the game, rarely do much damage, and always die fast. Make them a bit stronger, have them follow the main character (as opposed to patrol), and let them follow you outside thier initial area. In theory you could have 4 or 5 following you, and that would be awesome. Since they die relatively fast anyways it won't unbalance the game, but it would be nice to try and get all of them in the game (unlock another easter egg if you get so many at once !!) >> Disagree. You -do- need a 'Rigger/Decker' type character that can /exploit/ droids however; either to 'look around dangerous corners' (what the little hovering goober of Bao Dur is good for) or to execute a commando style breach into a specific part of a complex _separate_ from the main axis of the Party Attack and /support them/ by 'plugging in' and taking over a system. Nobody in their right mind would assault a Republic cruiser or Sith dreadnaught with 3 people. Because you would be facing anywhere from 500 to 5,000 (if it's an assault carrier) enemy. But something which can lock out enemy intruder security measures and/or even turn them against the their own would be a major 'force multiplier' advantage. Jedi don't need this as much because their 'awareness' should let them sidestep most threats and they would also be able to deal with things like depressurized hull segments etc., at least for short periods. But since (for some darn reason) everybody INSISTS on you 'learning how' for about half the game in which you ARE NOT in fact a Jedi; it would make sense to have a character which could support the main party using _throwaway_ (i.e. non character, only ability represented) droid support. Whether he has to steal the enemy's or brings his own is another matter... >> -Saber throw is kind of disappointing because when you throw it you get shot a whole lot by blasters. How about a third level that does a little bit more damage and lets you stop that incoming fire with your hand ala Darth Vader in ESB, that would be incredibly cool or it could be an innate soldier ability (hand blocking blasters that is) >> Sabers should kill or disable on contact. No matter WHAT armor you are wearing, it should break through. Such would keep the enemy from massing. And yes, the ability to 'deflect/redirect/absorb' (which is in K2 of course would be a 'nice thing'). So to would something that made multiple images of you. Or which 'convinced' the enemy you were standing right next to his fellow squadmate. Or indeed an acknowledged 'sniper mode' which let you attack from within stealth mode. Equally important in terms of dramatic plot device would be the ability to 'cut something loose' in a fashion which say dropped a gantry onto a Sith Ship keeping it from escaping etc. etc. >> -Flurry is too good. An extra attack for -1 attack, -1 def at level 3? Don't decrease the defence penalty, leave it locked at 4 or 5. Then its more of a kamikaze style attack, and would be ok for those non-force users who wear armor and there is balance in the force once again. >> Nonsense. No-penalty mode attacks when you are not wearing armor and -especially- if your opponent is wielding another 'unstoppable except by another saber' light blade; you cannot afford to be 'touched'. Even once. Flurry should represent the ability to divide the melee round into smaller and smaller segments so that you CAN expend your given number of strokes in the total round, in an even shorter period of time. The key here is to make the player AWARE of how many cuts he has per round as a function of a counter or meter which he can then 'tune' to defensive or offensive emphasis. And then understand that /whenever/ he is out of strokes, that's it for that round and he'd better have won or be disengaged and running. >> -Power attack is worthless. +10 damage versus flurry which gives you another attack that is guarnteed to do more than that? No contest. Different feats should have different advantages, right now there are very clear 'best feats.' >> YAW MAWN! But only because it is ridiculous to leap up in the air spin in a somersault and come down on your enemy. Rotational energy is efficient in and of itself but adds little or nothing to the PENETRATIVE FORCE of a blade because of the vector (slash not stab) that is implied. In any case, if you want to (say) destabilize the plasma containment sheath so that you can put more of the sabers energy into the target -thermally-, you do what Kenobi did in Ep.2 which was spin the blade, not the human body. People are not birds. You leap up in the air and you cannot 'flap wings' to alter your vector any further. This, added to your immense target area, leaves you _vulnerably predictable_ for Waaaaaay To Long to be worth it. Asian fighting arts use leaping maneuvers because they have MUCH lighter, shorter, body statures and were often facing mounted or armored threats with little more than hands, feet, and farm implements. No trained sword-warrior in the '6ft tall class' willingly loses control of his direction and balance by removing his feet from the ground. FOOTWORK wins about 60-70% of all fights. >> -If combat is initiated immediately after combat against a tough boss then auto-save! (Just make it an option) Going through several minutes of dialogue only to immediately die is depressing. >> Agree. Sometimes I forget and...it's depressing and immersion killing to realize too late that I am now going to have to 'relive all the moments leading up to my mistake'. A more potent tool to punish the foolish would be to LOSE PERMANENTLY party members who do in fact die. >> -Take out 'You must gather your party before venturing forth.' This isn't BG2, allies can't be left in obscure locations to take advantage of the game, they follow you (albeit slowly when you use knight speed), has no reason to be left in. >> Yes and no. Again, the optimum method of fighting a 'party war' is to have X sit at Y location while ABC move through a complex 'somewhere else'. Because it allows you to hit multiple 'schwerpunkts' of critical center of gravity and thus take on harder foes through a series of staged developments. In such a for grins instance, you should be able to 'switch locations' to use the technique or advantage you need most (like calling on artillery as a grunt and then /becoming/ the guy servicing the mortar or howitzer tube to deliver the remote fires). IMO, it would be better if the code was smart enough to recognize when a given character was either: 1. Dead or Too Badly Wounded to join up. = Lost forever or NOT if you /choose/ to leave another character behind to defend and/or medevac him back to the ship. 2. 'Detached Support' in a way that didn't require him to be with you, literally. He will make his own way out when the time is right. 3. Just Separated. In a fashion that allowed for teleportation catchup without the 'form up party before next level' nonsense. >> -20 seconds is too short for force powers, how about 30? Anymore might be a bit much, but 20 is definately too short. >> No. There is a saying I was taught awhile back: Skill is the ability to do one thing Really Well. Power is the ability to do many things with Skill. Grace is the Wisdom to know which thing most needs doing Right Now. Jedi Masters shouldn't be /that/ physically different from their (younger, quicker, tougher) padawan/knight pupils. The difference is that they should be able to 'summon and set' 2-3 Force Powers to act as a constant-on ' background program. It might be clairvoyance/precognition to show a 'vision' when you are about to meet a large enemy or simply take a road which leads to the whole party being DEAD. It might be 'absorb energy bolt' so that you cannot be snipered (from 100-1,000m not '28'). It might be Cloak to hide your presence altogether. Or Speed to let you jet from location to location. Or 'Valor/Shield' to help improve the whole party's performance. Even 'grenade and physical weapon suppression' (disruptors and other projectile devices as well as non-saber melee weapons). So that when someone threw a grenade or pulled a slug-thrower trigger, the projectiles snapped back in their face or jetted off in a harmless direction. The BIG DIFFERENCE being that _it doesn't take Force Points_ and so has no reason to be 'time limited' (since reactivation would only be for 'nuissance value'). While you have to be /careful/ which always-on powers you choose, because, while powerful, they also have some limits. The difference between a tank and a man is that the man can only duck the _muzzle index_ of someone pointing a rifle at him. By and large an armored fighting vehicle _just doesn't care_. Jedi Masters should be able to remain calmly centered and mission focussed during the height of battle because they are no longer reflex junky's so much as 'tanks' that just are not worried about the 'little things' of conventional threats. >> ***Random Game Stuff*** -Cut scenes are lame, I don't want to see the ship flying onto or off a planet, show something exciting >> Agreed. Except when it is an element of 'sneaking in under a cloaking field' (which would be far more useful/less blatantly obvious to a smuggler than milgrade shields and guns IMO). Cutscenes should 'set the feel' of the coming mission. >> -On Taris the side-thing where you help a dancer is abyssmal. Dancing in general looks reeeally bad. It could be fun little DDR-like easter egg though. Then if you go dancing on all the planets it can unlock DDR dance routines to the classic music (Imperial March, Duel of the Fates, etc..) Easter eggs are good, and that would be absolutely hilarious. >> Agreed. But only insofar as it isn't a functional element of the mission. Indeed, all of Taris is a waste because the 'only point' in your being there is to illustrate the power and lethality of a TOTAL WAR environment. Yet once you have been the motive for the slaughter of millions, you never LEARN from your mistake and knuckle down to stay AHEAD OF the ongoing conflict at hand. Preventing more such disasters by /avoiding/ the 'boy scout' missions. >> -Shiny aliens are good, take advantage of that more! They look exponentially better than regular textured critters. >> Ainhhh. >> -Party members should walk around mines if they can see it >> Ainnh. A real mine is one which is lethal to as much as 10-20m. Usually they are overlapped and cross-rigged to form 'spider webs' of cross-coned lethality which /shreds/ a grouped target after you trigger a mine at the top of the killsac and all the _hidden_ ones behind/beside you go off at the same time. It is because of these abilities that mines are generally classed as area/mobility denial systems because they require you to carefully 'look for the threat' using dedicated sensors (another reason to have droids) or a 'mineplow' type system of deliberate activation by a heavily armored/explosive juggernaut. NONE of these things are really applicable/compatible to the 'personal quest' (dungeon crawl) type environment of KOTOR because the general A#1 rule of 'mine avoidance' is _don't go there_. Don't open boxes and lockers. Don't go near defended areas such as the entrance to a facility or a chokepoint in terrain. While the use of mines 'indoors', in heavily trafficked areas, is also ludicrous because, especially if they are autonomously activated, it grossly inhibits the functionality of the work place. Indeed, most modern autonomous mines have such sensitive trembler switches that they cannot be safed, manually, at all. They have to be blown in place either on their own (time delay) or by exotic, robotic, vehicle-mechanical arm emplaced charges. For all the above reasons, most infantry will tell you that THE BEST mines are those which are _highly_ specific (have a camera/seismic/acoustic sensor on them or supporting them to identify the target) and preferrably _command detonated_ so that no attempt to 'sneak by' or disable the mine as a function of probing or clearance techniques works because you simply blow it up in their face as they sit there with their stick probing around. While loss of control of the position (rapid vacate or defeat) will not leave a threat which endures for decades to innocents blundering by. IOW: With no real crippling damage modifiers (lost limbs etc.) and nearly instantaneous damage repair, mines are worthless irritants except for their relatively low 'resale value'. They should be pulled from the game, IMO. >> -No saving in combat, thats cheap. >> Never really had time to this one out. When you fight, fight, don't grope the keyboard. >> -Big scary alien monsters are badly needed! How about a full sized rancor when you aren't level 5? >> Yeah and nah. WE are biggest, scariest, monsters. Our ability to create organized VOLUMES of fire (a single squad, firing in three round burst, can put out 30 rounds per second. And on the order of _900_ rds per minute with a 2 second target servicing lag) is incredibly, deafeningly, terrifying. You only need to hear a bullet zzzzzzhaaap! by your ear once to realize how 'technically inferior' we are to the tools of death we create for roughly 35 cents apiece. OTOH, the existing 'monsters' are ludicrous looking. It is _so lame_ to make comments like "Onderon has some of the most vicious predators in the known galaxy!". And then show me a critter which looks like a pig crossed with a bullfrog as example. Even the Jagget or whatever it was called, looks more like an ankylosaur than anything truly alien-interesting. A comment here: Speed and Sinuous Strength beat raw bulk for fear power. The creature has to _functionally_ be lethal or it's laughable. Such is why the Alien's of Geiger fame look so nasty. Because they are rangy and raw and lean. But they also have the POWER of restrained strength and predatory intent. >> -If you hack a computer for an area map the parts you haven't visited should be greyed out. I generally didn't download them because then I couldn't tell what rooms I had visited. >> Agreed. A Force Ability to show the room next door would also be nice. Again, Visas supposedly had 'Force Sight in first person mode' but I never could make it work. >> -Display damage to energy shields, make it yellow text or something (optoinal) >> Booooooh! The only things which should have the weight bearing ability to lug around a shield should be heavy combat droids. THEY should be the 'lead tank' in serious fights. Everybody else should concentrate on hitting the enemy at critical points (head and joints) before they are hit themselves. A 'briefing' system which showed each armor type you were likely to encounter on a planet and where it's vulnerable locations were, along with the targeting/precise shot and 'finesse' feats for _long gun_ accurate weapons would help here. Again, ONLY droids and maybe wookies should have the ability to lift heavy repeating blasters which can take out a threat in 1-2 shots. The rest of the party must score _accurate_ fire and/or GROUP their shots on each target to 'overload' it's defenses. Of course if you drain the bad guys LAR tank instead of 'nailing him through the eye' you don't get as much residual refill of your own armor. >> -Display damage dealt BY allies to enemies, I like to know whose dishing out damage and who isn't whilst I micro my force powers (agan, make it an option) >> Booooh! I get SO SICK of seeing HP attack variables and XP kill variables in battle! First of all it's not the kind of data you NEED to be functioning on. And it clutters up the screen. And it reminds me that this is 'just a game'. Give me a 'bodies and blood trails' count at the END of the fighting so I know how much _total_ XP I've got. And then allow me the option to assign that XP equally, by kills per party member or by _weakest_ party member (first) allocation. THAT is real power. >> -Pop up boxing showing exp/light,dark points gained and what not should NEVER say "Items Gained!" Just tell me what it is! Also, when talking with someone if they say they have a reward and you have the option to decline or ask more how about they just say what they are giving? >> Don't care. If it's the end of a dialogue 'storytelling' round, I will always look in the inventory to read the item description (powers and applicability) anyway and too much detail only clogs the screen. If it's the middle of a _running_ gun battle (i.e. the fire and maneuver never stops) I can't afford to be distracted anyway and THAT is infuriating. Warriors are not Thieves and Grave Robbers. At least not until the battle is truly over and you are looking for intel to bring back. >> -More puzzles! So long as they are optional they can even be pretty challenging, always good to spice up the mix and avoid some monotony. >> I agree with whoever said 'no more math!' crap. Also, you are a JEDI. That means that your principle 'weapon' (for defense and knowledge) is The Force. As such, learning new Force powers and indeed 'trialing' your way up a level should be a function of entering a 'save the falling ship!' final encounter whereby you match a mental pattern (swirling screen saver overlay) or...something. >> -More bosses/unique character with fancy death animations are needed. Its a *good* feeling to kill an extra powerful character, and a nice in-game cutscene would be a suitable reward. A blade through the stomach, blaster bolt between the eyes, these are all good exciting things to see. >> Agreed. But only if it's not so artificial that I feel every 'special' kill must come as a function of a cutscene movie. SOMETIMES the greatest kills are those which happen 'randomly' in the middle of a hard fight so that while he's twitching, you turn to deal with the enemy at hand. Long, drawn out, death-song type monologues stink of melodrama. >> -If you have more side-quests like the murder mystery on Dantooine and puzzle stuff why not randomize it? Keeps the game interesting the second time through, and it is always an optional thing to do so why not? Same for some of those math based puzzles >> Only to the extent that Jedi Sentinels should have special 'tracking' and 'lie detector' and 'balanced Force' (mercy vs. justice) Powers that let them execute these kinds of missions better than Guardians or Masters. Otherwise, it gets to be too much like Humphrey Bogart playing Clue. >> -When not in combat lightsabers should dangle at hips, blasters on sides, rifles strapped over the shoulder. Its just silly to see a jedi running through a city with a saber in each hand. >> OVERWHELMINGLY IN AGREEMENT! A relaxed threat is one that isn't worried about your ability to 'nail him while he isn't looking'. A man standing their with his weapon clenched in his fist looks nervous. Which inspires you to believe you could, maybe, 'get away with' nailing him. Lightsabers on a belt say that the "Jedi are never /that/ unaware...". And increase the utility of having a precognition power which shows you are -about- to be sniped from building X. Giving you the iajutsu advantage of 'quick draw' turning to MEET that threat while perhaps Force Wave pushing (and holding) the enemy at your front up against the wall. All without violating the 'only for defense' law. i.e. it adds another, REALISTIC, level of gameplay to a character who is fighting a mafia type threat. And must spank them _as a Jedi_. By turning towards the given sightline and activating their saber to quickly block the incoming threat, BEFORE the trigger is assassination-pulled (i.e. you could also do this as a function of being somebody's body guard). >> -When your evil you lose a few allies, how about throwing in a couple of characters you can only get if your evil? >> Agreed, though I'm not sure I like the choices available for 'falling' as it were. It would be much more heartwrenching if you lost someone you CARED about and /that/ is what drove you to be callous and uncaring to others. As a Darkside precursor. Certainly dialogue options should change as your 'mood darkens' so that eventually it is harder and harder 'to be nice to people' from among the the available conversation options. But sarcasm and humorous insight into peoples failings and manipulable personality characteristics should not necessarily be a Darkside cue in and of itself. Not if it's the natural way the PLAYER (not his character) would choose to respond to someone being a minor PITA. >> -There are some items in the game that have no use (sith lightsaber, special fire grenade) and thats not cool. I always thought throwing the fire grenade at the frozen acid should melt it causing anyone standing on top to die too. Also there is NO reason why the sith lightsaber shouldn't be like any other one. It would have been nice to be evil and use a sith lightsaber instead of a normal one you know? >> Don't care. Most of the 'power ups' serve only to render what should be _personal_ 'role playing' into a coldly rendered world of mathematics and 'statistical combat'. Such is not cool. Because it means you can slug away at a threat and beat him with technology rather than personal cunning or skill. >> -More light/dark only items. Light jedi definately got the better ones (armor/crystal) so make sure its not completely lop sided again >> Don't care. It is the _situational ethic_ response to encounters that should drive you towards (unforeseen but still "I shoulda known..." LOGICAL) final fates. Objects are objects unless they have some emotional response or rational use which makes their ACTIONS 'good or bad'. >> -Was there supposed to be a point to the Czerka corp? Everyone talked trash about them but they never really had a point. Run out of time perhaps? I always expected some long story filled side quest with them...and it never came. >> I wondered this too. I figured it was the 'nameless threat syndrome' in which the devs couldn't figure out how to make a corporate evil strong enough to be dangerous because they were SMART, rather than just thugs. The obvious options here are to make things like the Manaan Kolto mining/refinement/export process a 'three way tug of war' with Czerka standing in as the middle man for the Fish People (sorry, don't recall their species name) and you 'forced to negotiate' depending by not allowing them to steal from both sides, blindly. Again, given how badly the various 'court' scenes were, I doubt if the devs have it in them to do a variation of the _The Firm_ (Czerka vs. or 'secretly working for' The Exchange?) theme. >> -Force sight at least sounds useless right now (if its your 2nd time through then you know whose evil and whose not). Let it display armor/health/stats of enemy units, like awareness in Fallout. >> Yes, for many reasons. 1. It looks like 'color coded thermal'. Given all the dumba$$ 'fashion wear' I'm currently forced to put up with to convey some very basic (force power protection and ability modifiers) capabilities, I actually wouldn't mind if I had some kind of 'visionic modifier' to the conventional vision modes in-game. But magic should be different. Personally, I prefer the current setup of a 'blurry edged vision' indicator as an ambush or powerful monster (time to stim up and light off the shields!) cue. 2. Feats/Powers Should Chain Together For Special Purposes. So that when I have my 'All Seeing Eye' on, I should get a warning that a sniper is out there, sitting on a rooftop. And THEN I can convince him to take a little nap. Or throw him off the edge. Or blow his gun up. Samething for a bomb hidden in the mayor's limo. I 'see it' based on what WILL happen (boom) if I don't stop it from functioning. And then I do (fuze the detonator circuit board together, change the chemical composition of the explosive etc.). Even in 'conventional combat', when I have Master Flurry and Knight Speed/Jump selected, if I SEE the threats (location) I should be able to enter a room at Warp Speed and use my multiple-attack option to kill 3-4 opponents in the 'first round' of a fight. Leaving only 2-3 left. 2-3 I can beat, 'normally'. 7-9 I cannot. 3. Decision making. No matter how 'wise' you are, you can only make decisions based on the knowledge you have to hand. While it shouldn't always work (The Force should mask the outcomes from some decisions and make others warp in ways whose obvious visual indicator is NOT what you expected: X enemy is dead, but so is Y friend etc.) there should be MANY times in the game when the choice between flying off to a new world, completing the quest on the current one and shifting your focus to yet a third should all depend on 'seeing' what outcomes you have to choose from. Such would help with the sense of 'zig zagging' between a few planets to accomplish several overlapping quests rather than being stuck doing things linearly, one by one (very predictable story telling.) THESE DECISIONAL OPTIONS of overlapping ability and choice are what Force Sight should represent. >> Looks like thats it. Its late so please excuse all grammatical and typing mistakes. If I can find the PC version for cheap then I will give the game another run through and may add to this list. Its enough to give you guys some work for the time being. Again please note that this points are NOT up for debate so don't waste your time telling me how I'm wrong about something, because I'm not. >> Always nice to meet someone who is confident in his viewpoint. You have some interesting ideas, I just don't know how applicable they are within the computation requireements, development window (2-3 years) and size of a game. The problem being not so much technical in my opinion as the certainty that games manufacturers WANT you to beat a game, fairly quickly, without being really satisfied. Because then you will quickly come back to try for more. Given the number of flops for each commercial success (starts out 50-70 bucks, goes to 10-20 dollar bargain bin and _still_ won't sell), I would think they would learn that it's better to be head and shoulders above the competition than floundering in a sea of indifferent sharks but that's just me. There may also be larger factors involved as the slump in U.S. economics will continue to drive the 'up or out' element of superior gaming platform requirements into longer and longer (lower and lower base threshold) windows between upgrade or replacement. If you need a gig of RAM and a 4GHz processor atop a high speed 50-100GB harddisk transfer capacity to do all that you would like, you may end up severely disappointed. I know I sure have been. Saberist Out. 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Saberist Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 Shdy, >> Moral relativism is an observable fact. Different cultures have different values. You can assert that your values are better than other values. In fact, you should do that - if you don't assert your values, why do you have them? You may even prevail in the political struggle to have your values enforced, instead of other values. But that just proves that you've won. It doesn't show that your values are objectively better. As for the Jedi, I'd argue that setting yourselves above the law is inherently DS, even if you're doing it to promote the LS. >> Jedi are in many ways like a smart gun. A _tool_ which cannot be immorally used without it's owner being aware of what that 'hidden purpose' is. As such the nature of evil _in the individual Jedi_ is the real question you are asking here. >> It's also terrible in terms of practical politics. Do you really think common people would take well to having their laws and cultures judged by an unaccountable elite of mystics who take their guidance from some source that an ordinary man has no contact with? That'd only be workable if you set up some sort of Jedi theocracy, and brought the common folks into the church. It's conceivable, but the Republic doesn't work that way. >> No. Jedi 'just are'. Whatever their belief system, you don't see them rushing out to convert the unwashed masses so their power is highly personal, like a psionic, not a priest. If it were any other way, Lucas would not have been able to sell the belief system to a highly secularized America. Which IS the 'middle road' defining moral culture here, don't be fooled. >> In the real world, we don't expect Catholic priests to bomb abortion clinics. >> In the real world there is the 'commonly held' moral ground which responds to each and every act as a separate engagement in a longfought war between good and evil. And the 'movers and shakers' who /form/ the social conditions by which those acts can occur. The variance is that one views all acts from the past tense without any real power to change what is going on (and in this, rape, slavery, bombing are pretty much universally opposed, no matter the cause). And the other keeps (say) unwanted Brits in Ireland because that is where THEY want to stay. And thus creates the economic and moral disparities by which people becomes so frustrated that they cannot see any 'peaceful civil disobediance' means to change things towards their own point of view. Add to this feelings of nationalism "The UK is NOT to be broken up into little republics!" (which is a good, _unifying_, thing.) at home vs. 'hatred of the man' (the unknown, seemingly uncaring/untouchable priveleged threat not living within your scope of experience) and you have a set of overlying and underlying problems which are simply unresolvable. Now. A Jedi would look at a British PM or Parliament in 1960 and say: "By supporting the rights of Brits with generational residence in Ireland to stay where they are, you are _guaranteeing_ that their subsidized economic lifestyle (better jobs, guaranteed by nationality and religious affiliation) will drive the 'real' Irish insane with jealousy. Even as notions like divorce, and abortion and women's rights in general, seem diametrically against what their own 'higher power' (Catholic Rome) instructs them to hold as evil. _Listen To Me_ when I say to you that these 'struggles' will never end and the death count will exceed 100,000 before 2100. And by 2000, you will have spent in excess of 20 BILLION pounds sterling keeping forces in Ireland to protect 'your' citizens on 'their' turf. Whereas, if you simply PAY each of these citizens (alive today, in Northern Ireland, not their unborn sons and daughters) 150,000lbs to evacuate back to the central island, you will only have to pay _2 Billion pounds_." And you know what? It would only take 1-2 of those kinds of 'mistaken bulldoggedness' type adventures before _The Jedi Would Be Believed_. Not because it is morally right to restrict choices in things like divorce and abortion by allowing a culture to remain isolated within it's beliefs. But because the 'movers and shakers' would prize money before pride. >> HA! Your entire argument is flawed. As you said of course you should attempt to prevail your beliefs on others or why have them? Well do the Jedi believe slavery is wrong or not? If they think it is justifiable that is just sick. And inaction is just as bad as condoning it. Moral Relativism is true to the extent different cultures have different values but after recognizing that people have to accept that their belief is better or switch to whichever they think is best. You can't just let each culture be or the Jedi would be evil to attack the Sith. Heroes do NOT say oh slavery is despicable but it's legal on this Hutt planet so I better try to help a single slave in anyway or Ill slip to the dark side. That's insane. >> The sadness here is that Emperor Palpatine was a weak man who would have died, eventually, anyway (_The Sixth Day_ showed a much more probable use of suicide/memory transfer/cloning to achieve immortality than the Dark Empire EU ever did). As such, the creation of Vader to destroy him is unbelievably irresponsible on the part of The Force because /Vader/ as Palpatine's attack dog, killed and/or subjugted (another word for 'enslaved') BILLIONS of people. Thus what Lucas is effectively saying, -in the movies-, is that it would be better if ANAKIN remained an innocent who never leared power. Because at least as a slave he was happy and unspoiled. While as a Spartacus he became an Attila. Thus the entire story of Anakin, his fall and supposed redemption, is bogus. And so is all of the OT (which is the only series I consider halfway decent) and PT (which is utter garbage from start to last). >> Oh ok so the Civil War just meant the North was stronger. If the South had won it would still be OK to have slaves. Yeah, it's easy for you to talk all abstract about something completely dehumanizing and evil I think your views would be a little more realistic if you or someone you knew had ever dealt with slavery. Know anyone that's ever been raped? In some countries men aren't persecuted for it so it must be ok right? >> Sigh. You wanna know the tragedy of the Civil War me bucko? 1. We didn't want to integrate blacks into society in the North anymore than the South. And if you refuse to MAKE a man your equal, legally, by access to advanced schooling and nutrition, and ultimately by interbreeding so that no particular privelege remains unaccessible by class or natural advantagement. You are engaging in an act of hypocrisy to call him your equal or even really 'emancipated'. Once you do this, you create an inbuilt cancer of economic stress by which the 'total pie' is divided into separate ethnic sub segments by which each _individual slice_ is that much smaller. Thus, if you are unwilling to acknowledge what the results of your 'kindness' in abolishing slavery are going to require of you down the road, you are not helping ANYONE trying to live the lie of a 'separate but cooccupying' inequality. 2. The combination of steam tractors, artificial harvesting/threshing devices (the notorious Cotton Gin) and railroad economics would have quickly rendered the Southern Economy unprofitable as a slave-based system anyway. As things were, the 3 years of the Civil War gave the British an unbreakable monopoly as World Cotton Supplier using _Egyptian_ slave economics (including that which built the Suez Canal). While the sadly over-exploited state of Southern Soil more or less left them nothing to come back with, even once the war had been lost. Because Cotton _would not grow_ as it once had. Soy, Peanuts and Tobacco (the replacement crops) are NOT as labour intensive as (see _Places In The Heart_) cotton is in terms of either weeding, watering or harvesting. And once again, slave labor fades into nothing as a useful economic tool while U.S. economic growth -overall- is crippled by an internal conflict which let Europe grow so strong (and uselessly Imperialist /proud/) as to make WWI equally 'inevitable'. A 'Great War' which failed to learn even the most basic of rifled firepower lessons (the Gatling vs. the Trench system and long range artillery in general) and so slaughtered MILLIONS of infantry because the generals were TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND WHY they could no longer fight as 'honorable' combatants. The Difference A Jedi Could Make Here? "Stop and think gentlemen... Either integrate blacks fully into your society or return them to Africa. Morally there is no acceptable alternative as the poor breed like rats and so create their own hungry-mouth powerbase anyway. Economically, their base physical labour efficiencies will not stand up to the coming changes in agro of industrialization. And /by/ (the need for) skilled labor that is industrial manufacture itself. OTOH, a war with current weapons will result in the HIGHEST -white- casualty count of working age 'skilled' males of ALL American wars for the next 140+ years. Again, given that emerging technology will liberate black slaves anyway, all's you need to do is supply _1/10th_ the funds (say 100 million dollars) needed to wage this insanity of an internecine 'moral' conflict as economic guarantees. So that the Southern economy can convert peaceably, _in exchange for_ a guarantee of Union and Emancipation. It makes no sense to engage in war for sporting purposes. Because if you refrain from it, you will be twice as powerful at the turn of the century as you will otherwise (there was a major banking meltdown in the 1890's just like the late 1920's, largely as a result of 'reconstruction' debts and uneven economic growth) be compared to the rest of the Western World." Again, far from being 'out there, fighting for the little people', a precognitive Jedi would be /vastly/ overemployed by the RICH PEOPLE looking to -stay that way-. It then being 'up to him' to determine the internal moral causes and justifications by which their choices were made proximally ethical. >> Depends on what law you set yourself above? Hutt law? Don't make me laugh. Is smuggling medical supplies to refugees truly evil. Yep i can see how that person would definitely be a Sith. Heroes which I like to think the Jedi are supposed to be, try to make people's lives better. Not maintain the status quo everywhere. >> Smuggling doesn't stand on it's own for 'one mission'. It exploits existing infrastructure which may carry guerillas, drugs, medical supplies and chicken feed on differing days. Just read about Air America's actions in SEA if you don't believe me. In general, smuggling is a BAD idea because it must fight against the established government for economic as much as civil rights and the subsequent struggle leaves it little ability to give what a government TRIES to provide in the way of social services (roads, fire, emergency medical, education etc.) to the populace. 'Theoretically', an entirely free-market driven society in which freelance contraband generation and smuggling was only REQUIRED to enrich the local populace which it fed upon would allow that populace to grow in economic stature to the point where they could develop alternative methods of selfsustenance and so wouldn't NEED continued sponsorship. The problem here is that smuggling is both more fun and more profitable than conventional work:yield based activities and so, even if a drug lord (for instance) could be convinced to retire a rich man; he would never be able to keep those younger, dumber, poorer than him from using the one constant of _advantaged geography_ by which X gets to Y without being discovered and interdicted. i.e. The Young Turks will always want what the old bulls already have and will NOT want to do things the 'hard way' (boring, repetitive, unexciting) just because their economies say that that is now a safer option for a 40 year run into old age. >> Hmmm do I think practical people would take well to having their laws and cultures judged by an unnaccountable elite of mystics? Well ignoring the broad ignorance of that sweeping statement I would say it has to be judged on a case by case basis. First of all should the Jedi care if Hutt crimelords consider them to be a pain in their backside because they keep stopping their weapons smuggling? Hmmm you know what I guess not. Might all the people being adversely affected by it be grateful? Yes I think so. I am not saying the Jedi should sweep down as an army on planets and purge them of everything they consider evil and rewrite all the laws etc. I am saying if two Jedi stumble across two slaves on an Outer Rim world taking only the child because he is useful and leaving the mother behind is evil. No way around it. >> Proof. Proof is the puddin' here. If you seek to weigh something on the moral scales of 'just and deserved' punishment or reward, then you must establish that not only has a crime occured but what the history and sponsor of such activity is. My big worry would be that the Hutts, being evil little genius', would choose to come after lone Jedi using a system of cutouts to hire assassins/bounty hunters. KNOWING that they would fail. If a Hutt, deliberately or otherwise, made it impossible for a Jedi to work on a NEW world, because everywhere he went somebody blew up a bomb or sprayed down a crowded shopping mall trying to get him. You could greatly aggravate if not render 'persona non grata' unwelcome his presence and thus mission anywhere. This would require a decidedly more 'conjoined' attitude towards threats which might be supportable ONLY by a Jedi's "Okay, who did this" clairvoyant vision which showed the author but not the source or vice versa on a blast crater. A persecutionist view not unlike that which lead to our own little adventure in Iraq for example. And while I wouldn't want to fight a Jedi determined to come rip a chunk off. The fact of the matter is that the Jedi himself cannot afford to be wrong. Or -made to look that way-, even once. Because if he did, then HIS WORD would be no more reputatively worhy than that of of the Hutt him/herself. Maybe even less so among the latter's 'local fanbase'. >> Yeah. Jedi saving two slaves is like priests bombing abortion clinis. >> No. But that doesn't change the reality that Quigon exploiting Anakin (entering a child in a bloodsport is _wrong_ no matter who you are or how powerful your prescience is) led to him beginning the path of 'least resistance' by which Vader was created. And Vader did nothing so great as to counterbalance the hurt he caused. >> You try to argue with the most insane of analogies. The Jedi should have their own code. Maybe something along the lines of defending truth and justice throughout the galaxy. Geez, that'd be nice. Of course we can't defend them if their not on a core world. Oh but wait what if a cult arises on Coruscant worshipping the Sith and wants to separate? What should we do? It'd be wrong not to accept their different beliefs. <_< Whatever let's see what you want to say next to argue slavery isn't inherently good or evil. >> I think you will find that the most powerful of change-makers realize that there is no unified moral code. Because any hurt is always 'justified', by one viewpoint or another, based on past betrayals. Or future gains. The difference is that /overall/ a society can advance provided it doesn't become bogged down by the 'split hairs' of NOT knowing what the outcome to a given action might be. Because by the time a 'communal vote' can be taken on an act so horrific as to be 'globally inexcuseable' (WWII comes to mind) it is as a function of total loss rather than questionable gain. Such is why Lucas', Bioware's AND Obsidian's view of the Jedi as moral contentionists is incredibly crude and primitive. Because REAL Jedi, ones with the power to influence LARGE decisions would be working behind the scenes with the powerful individuals and governments that had the ability to change whole directions of development or injury. 'Miniquests' (find the serial killer/crime boss/rapist/Sith, heal a plague, help enrich crops, secure a critically needed shipment of X material or product) would then largely be a side effort. Like a hobby undertaken to relieve oneself of the stresses of 'real work'. As such, Jedi would be a shadowy elite. 'Rumored to be', if known at all. Saberist Out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguars4ever Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 Wow, saberist - you brought back a thread just shy of a year old. Barely anyone who participated in this thread posts here anymore. That being said, I'm somewhat amused at the fact you've typed out two gigantor sized rebuttals against good 'ol Shdy and that other guy Cecil & expect them to engage in a conversation....especially since they stopped posting here yonks ago. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saberist Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 Wow, saberist - you brought back a thread just shy of a year old. Barely anyone who participated in this thread posts here anymore. That being said, I'm somewhat amused at the fact you've typed out two gigantor sized rebuttals against good 'ol Shdy and that other guy Cecil & expect them to engage in a conversation....especially since they stopped posting here yonks ago. :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, /You/ noticed. So I believe 'thanks' are in order...;-) Saberist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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