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Infinitron

SAWYERISM BETRAYED - Might turns back into Strength, Resolve will affect spell damage

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As silly as muscle wizards can be, I would be sad to see it go. Just like intellect barbarians, PoE has quite a few builds that challenge fantasy conventions and I wouldn't want to see this system lose that quality. I don't mind resolve becoming a more casting oriented stat but deflection, healing and damage is a tremendous amount of power to put on one stat. I like healing being on might but moving that to resolve makes a lot of sense to me.

 

Perhaps both might and resolve could increase spell damage, at reduced or increased amounts as necessary. This way you could have both the conventional resolve caster and the muscle wizard! It sounds like strength will still help melee casters to some degree though...

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All I know is I build nuke wizards, and I *will* dump all my strength to 3. Because why not.

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All I know is I build nuke wizards, and I *will* dump all my strength to 3. Because why not.

 

^This^

 

 

Well except that I'd make an Orlan from Aedyr who'd have a 2 Strength and a 20 Resolve.

 

At low levels you might be autoattacking with a Wizard but as you gain levels you gain a lot of spells. At level nine, which is not exactly high level, you get nine spell casts - two 1st level, two 2nd level, two 3rd level, two 4th level and one 5th level. You get these for every encounter. It will be few encounters that see you go Winchester on spells and I don't see how higher levels and more spells will lead to a different situation.

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All I know is I build nuke wizards, and I *will* dump all my strength to 3. Because why not.

Absolutely, if you focus on damage dealing spells it is a a very good idea. With the new casting system it is very valuable as you can cast a lot.

 

But it’s not like giving strength to wizard is useless. There are builds you can do which benefit from strength (using summoned wizard or crowd control spells + damage from weapons) and that’s what makes this system intriguing. Different ideas for different classes might result in different attribute spread.

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Nah, he's referring to a very old squabble back when PoE1 was made, years ago, just like Infinitron is doing with his jokingly all-caps "Sawyerism betrayed". Those flames burned hot, but half a decade ago.

 

That makes me feel old. It feels like yesterday...

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All I know is I build nuke wizards, and I *will* dump all my strength to 3. Because why not.

 

^This^

 

 

Well except that I'd make an Orlan from Aedyr who'd have a 2 Strength and a 20 Resolve.

 

At low levels you might be autoattacking with a Wizard but as you gain levels you gain a lot of spells. At level nine, which is not exactly high level, you get nine spell casts - two 1st level, two 2nd level, two 3rd level, two 4th level and one 5th level. You get these for every encounter. It will be few encounters that see you go Winchester on spells and I don't see how higher levels and more spells will lead to a different situation.

 

well, you might wanna choose mountain dwarf or coastal aumaua instead, 'causes chances are your fort saves, which come up frequent in poe and the deadfire beta, is gonna be abysmal... although the link 'tween afflictions and saves is not direct.  for example, may need to make a fort save 'gainst a poison or suffer a perception or dex affliction.

 

am suspecting obsidian is gonna be getting feedback 'bout how lethal is some enemies and afflictions just as happened with mind zorkers in poe. 

 

"what the hell is wrong with obsidian?  i get grazed by a fampyr or dank spore and it's a near certain party wipe.  this needs to be fixed!"

 

"my will save?  what does that matter?  my high strength and 3 resolve naked-and-wielding-an-exceptional-estoc-rogue gets grazed by domination or charm and promptly kills all the casters in my party, and then eder 2-shot auto attacks the rogue and everybody but the tank is dead.  fix this."

 

HA! Good Fun! 

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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@Gromnir - One of the many reasons why I never dump stats... Besides the RP aspect ofc. Some players (the loudest often enough) want to have their cake and eat it too which unfortunately affects everyone...

Edited by Valci
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Nice change. I was never really comfortable with Might being so ambiguous. I want my barbarian to crush enemy skulls with pure muscle power, not some mystical spiritual force energy thingie. Now I can do that! Yay me!

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I'm not a big fan of the change, especially since it sounds like resolve was the problem, not might.  This is going to hurt a ton of gishy builds, and those are some of the most interesting ones.

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All I know is I build nuke wizards, and I *will* dump all my strength to 3. Because why not.

 

That's what I don't understand about this change.  It was made so resolve wouldn't be such a huge dump stat and be more useful to more characters.  So we turn might/strength into an even bigger dump stat than resolve was for anyone who relies on spells or healing?

 

This is what was so annoying about the original Eternity Beta and why I didn't play it much.  There were no subtle fixes, everything was the shotgun overcompensate approach, then slowly step it back, sometimes it never got stepped back enough.

 

What's most hilarious about this, is now Con is actually more desirable for a caster than might/strength.

Edited by Karkarov
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Are we getting these headlines from the Daily Mail, or some other enclave of brain-free humanoids?

 

Ironically, the players' complaint was never really about what specifically Might did, but how attributes don't have an intuitive identity - because they were being designed for viability with respect to dozens of different builds. This change is actually an extension of that latter approach, since the rationale is about the balance of viability and has nothing to do with making STR or RES any more coherent.

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This may come as a surprise given the typical talk in the forum, but everybody actually aren't heavy min-maxers. I hope Obsidian balance the game more for normal play than for heavy min-maxing POTD runs.

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I never min-max. In fact I never drop any star below 10 which for me is the average. However I only play on PoTD these days and it's entirely viable even with regular NPC companions (I also never create custom one cause the lack of interaction doesn't suit me). The only case in which min-maxing makes sense for me is for PoTD solo runs where you need to squeeze every ounce of performance from your character. In a full party virtually anything is viable...

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All I know is I build nuke wizards, and I *will* dump all my strength to 3. Because why not.

 

That's what I don't understand about this change.  It was made so resolve wouldn't be such a huge dump stat and be more useful to more characters.  So we turn might/strength into an even bigger dump stat than resolve was for anyone who relies on spells or healing?

 

This is what was so annoying about the original Eternity Beta and why I didn't play it much.  There were no subtle fixes, everything was the shotgun overcompensate approach, then slowly step it back, sometimes it never got stepped back enough.

 

What's most hilarious about this, is now Con is actually more desirable for a caster than might/strength.

 

well, keeping the classes more insular and discrete will allow for limited corrections.  however, the issue with resolve were a general problem facing most players.  were gonna require a broad stroke.  

 

karkarov does identify the new problem insofar as strength and casters is concerned.  pure casters has flipped one dump stat for another.  not a fix at all for such folks.  however, the stat issue being addressed were resolve's negligible use to more than casters, yes?  other than tanks, any poe build could use resolve as a dump stat.  the change to deadfire resolve gives the stat vitality to many additional builds.  at the same time, a large number o' deadfire builds is continuing to depend 'pon strength, including a goodly number o' wizards, priests and druids.  in another thread we mentioned a helwalker/sage build which is doing impressive damage precise 'cause even at level 1 the player is able to achieve +35 strength.  

 

yeah, casters flip might for resolve and only real difference is they need be more aware o' fort saves.  paladin tanks is gonna see considerable gains to their non-weapon powhaz, as if they needed a boost.  even so, the dynamic has changed considerable for a large number o' other builds.  was an endemic issue.  needed a blanket fix.  

 

btw, am not saying obsidian's solution is what we woulda' done or even that we like the change, but the reason for the change makes sense.  am gonna give the new build a try and see how it plays.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am not a balancing expert or anything o' the sort, but one can see from our default stat spread which we included in this thread, we ain't an optimizer. am nevertheless enjoying considerable success in the deadfire beta regardless o' penetration issues and bugs... and not the beetle kinda insect/bugs which made the poe beta a nightmare for a bit. for all the current issues which is needing work, deadfire is less unbalanced/overwhelming than were poe at a similar stage.  even so, am recognizing we got many hours o' poe experience, so am not coming into the game as a dewy-eyed innocent circa summer 2014. situations is not complete analogous.

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Large, complex RPG's with detailed character creators like PoE I always play through twice. Once, my first playthrough, I go in totally blind of all plot elements that I can avoid and build a character based around a theme and backstory and make all my choices from that perspective. In PoE I went in as a ranged cipher ex-slave from the Deadfire.

My *second* playthrough, I min/max for ultimate powaz. That time I was actually a melee rogue focusing on maximum attack speed and minimum recovery.

Both were fun playthroughs, for different reasons. I'll be taking both saves into Deadfire.

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I'm not talking about the mechanical aspects here, but rather the flavour of it. I liked that for wizards to cast the most damaging spells they needed to be extremely strong to handle the magical forces running through their bodies. It was something unique to PoE in most western RPGs.

 

Wouldn't that be constitution though? 

 

 

No. Think Dragon Ball Z.


"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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I'm not talking about the mechanical aspects here, but rather the flavour of it. I liked that for wizards to cast the most damaging spells they needed to be extremely strong to handle the magical forces running through their bodies. It was something unique to PoE in most western RPGs.

 

Wouldn't that be constitution though? 

 

No. Think Dragon Ball Z.

Can't think of something I don't know.

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I chuckled at this post from Josh:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=9#post478806259

 

 

Will wands use Strength or Resolve to determine their damage?

 

 

A wand is a weapon, so Strength.

...A wand is a weapon so it uses Strength...I'm sorry, I should do what with a magical implement? Swing it hard and bash enemies heads with it? Or maybe poke someone's eyes with it?

 

Or should I channel my magic powers into the wand so that it could amplify them into a magic missile? Shouldn't that use Resolve or Intelligence?

Edited by Aramintai
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I'm not talking about the mechanical aspects here, but rather the flavour of it. I liked that for wizards to cast the most damaging spells they needed to be extremely strong to handle the magical forces running through their bodies. It was something unique to PoE in most western RPGs.

 

Wouldn't that be constitution though? 

 

No. Think Dragon Ball Z.

Can't think of something I don't know.

 

Then I pity your childhood. :(

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"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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I chuckled at this post from Josh:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=9#post478806259

 

 

Will wands use Strength or Resolve to determine their damage?

 

 

A wand is a weapon, so Strength.

...A wand is a weapon so it uses Strength...I'm sorry, I should do what with a magical implement? Swing it hard and bash enemies heads with it? Or maybe poke someone's eyes with it?

 

So you know how magic wands should work, do you?


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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I chuckled at this post from Josh:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=9#post478806259

 

 

Will wands use Strength or Resolve to determine their damage?

 

 

A wand is a weapon, so Strength.

...A wand is a weapon so it uses Strength...I'm sorry, I should do what with a magical implement? Swing it hard and bash enemies heads with it? Or maybe poke someone's eyes with it?

 

So you know how magic wands should work, do you?

 

I know magic missiles are coming out of their pointy ends, so magic is involved (if the name magic wand is not clear enough). Are you suggesting that they get powered up by a mighty swing? The mightier the better?  :bat:

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@illathid - Dragonball Z ... Really?! Come on you can do better mate. Personally I never got into it but from the bits that I saw of the super-super-duper-ultra-super-duper super saiyan it's not something I'd want similarities to... But ofc that's just me ...lol

Edited by Valci

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A wand is a weapon so it uses Strength...I'm sorry, I should do what with a magical implement?

 

 

Magical. Indeed.

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I chuckled at this post from Josh:

 

A wand is a weapon, so Strength.

...A wand is a weapon so it uses Strength...I'm sorry, I should do what with a magical implement? Swing it hard and bash enemies heads with it? Or maybe poke someone's eyes with it?

 

Or should I channel my magic powers into the wand so that it could amplify them into a magic missile? Shouldn't that use Resolve or Intelligence?

Please for the love of immersion do not fix strength and then simply leave wands as a strength based weapon.This should stem for their magic power.

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