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SAWYERISM BETRAYED - Might turns back into Strength, Resolve will affect spell damage

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"Here are things that are not motivations for the shift: to dumb the game down (?), to make the game console friendly (??), to make ciphers bad because I hate ciphers and hate you and want the worst things in life to happen to only you  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)."

 

lol other communities took it way more personally than we did here :D

Yeah, the reactions on these forums are mild compared to that frigging nonsense. I'm not surprised, though. You should have been here during the PoE1 beta.

Holy moly!

 

I really hope this doesn't get to Josh too much, and that we get to try out the new changes for a while first.

 

His backup plan for/with Concentration is interesting, but I'm sure there are other ways as well to make it all work. :)

 

actually, am hoping it does get to josh.  he kinda retreated from these boards 'cause o' the silliness you mentioned during poe development.  no more developer feedback at the obsidian boards. well guess what?  sa and other places ain't such a friendly sanctuary from the tumult?  reasoning for abandoning the obsidian boards is less convincing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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Aw well, I wouldn't mind if Josh came home. He's like a lost son, and this home offers some tough love, but it ain't illwilled, and it doesn't hold grudges for too long.

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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I dont see how this has any thing to do with making things Console Friendly that is weird criticism.

 

It's something of a go to argument by some people. The reduction in party size to five was a ploy to make Deadfire into a console game as well apparently.

 

Josh's response is appreciated and if it so happens that he's reading this he should know no ill will was intended towards him. 

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I dont see how this has any thing to do with making things Console Friendly that is weird criticism.

 

It's something of a go to argument by some people. The reduction in party size to five was a ploy to make Deadfire into a console game as well apparently.

 

Josh's response is appreciated and if it so happens that he's reading this he should know no ill will was intended towards him. 

 

If he's refering to this forums here, then he's an exaggerating drama queen of hyperbole and took it personally :p

But I think not - I remember the "in the IE games" team comments back then and I imagine something like this in these other communities he's participating.

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I really hate this. I'm very disappointed in Josh right now. :(

You genuinely feel this strongly about it?

 

There are millions of people dying of thirst and this is all you care about? The name change of a stat on an unreleased game??!"?$%^?&%

 

 

Is it all I care about? No. Is it among the things I care about? yes. And the name change I could care less about, it's about the mechanical change to stats. 

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"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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I dont see how this has any thing to do with making things Console Friendly that is weird criticism.

 

It's something of a go to argument by some people. The reduction in party size to five was a ploy to make Deadfire into a console game as well apparently.

 

Josh's response is appreciated and if it so happens that he's reading this he should know no ill will was intended towards him. 

 

And because most people are thick as 2 short planks.


nowt

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There is nothing wrong with experimentation, however they had a system that while it had it's flaws it did work.  There is a difference between experimenting to make a better system, and experimenting for experiments sake.

Yeah. I built websites for a company that still uses their home-built 20 year old, crappy Typo3-derivate. It is far past the point were minor changes can disguise the fact that it is old. It should have been rebuilt from the ground or better totally replaced years ago. But as my boss always says:

 

"It may have it's flaws, but it works. Why should we change something that works?"

 

To improve it, of course. To see, if it can be made better. To be the ones, that do the next step and not always the ones that crawl over the finish line after all other competitors. To have a unique piece of software and not another clone. And last but not least: Just to find out, what works best and not be satisfied by the first solution that kinda works. Why do a sequel and not try to make it better? Just compare BG1 to BG2.

 

In my opinion "Never touch a running system!" is a mantra for calming down lazy developers.

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---

We're all doomed

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"Here are things that are not motivations for the shift: to dumb the game down (?), to make the game console friendly (??), to make ciphers bad because I hate ciphers and hate you and want the worst things in life to happen to only you  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)."

 

lol other communities took it way more personally than we did here :D

Yeah, the reactions on these forums are mild compared to that frigging nonsense. I'm not surprised, though. You should have been here during the PoE1 beta.

Holy moly!

 

I really hope this doesn't get to Josh too much, and that we get to try out the new changes for a while first.

 

His backup plan for/with Concentration is interesting, but I'm sure there are other ways as well to make it all work. :)

 

actually, am hoping it does get to josh.  he kinda retreated from these boards 'cause o' the silliness you mentioned during poe development.  no more developer feedback at the obsidian boards. well guess what?  sa and other places ain't such a friendly sanctuary from the tumult?  reasoning for abandoning the obsidian boards is less convincing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It can never be as bad as the codex. Nothing can be as bad as the codex.

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If he's refering to this forums here, then he's an exaggerating drama queen of hyperbole and took it personally :p

But I think not - I remember the "in the IE games" team comments back then and I imagine something like this in these other communities he's participating.

 

Oh I don't think he's referring to the discussion here, I just thought it was worth mentioning it nonetheless. 

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Since the Might/Strength attribute is effectively being diminished through this change, does this mean the damage change per attribute point will increase as compensation? Right now it seems pretty paltry. Compare to D&D v3.5 where it was +1 per +2 Str, on top of a base damage of ~4 -- equivalent to +25% per +2 Str.


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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Everybody always thought of might as strength. That was the problem. It was tied in to both spell and melee damage because might reflected raw soul power; this *could* be physical strength or it *could* be magical strength. The dialogue options didn't always reflect this, and it led a lot of people to thinking about might as strength when it never was.

 

I liked how *every stat* was important to *every character*. That was one of the things I really, really enjoyed about PoE. Now I'll just dump strength for points and pump everything I need. Disappointing.

 

Negative. It was physical strength and magical strength. OR no one actually had any strength, and people were still made out of muscle fibers for no reason at all, and even simple machines couldn't do any damage because they didn't have souls. Take your pick.

 

I don't understand how that is unclear. In this world, people have strength. They ALSO have soul "magic" (i.e. fictitious power). Regardless of how you look at it, some amount of everyone's power had to come from mechanical force generated by muscles. That's not even getting nitpicky. That's an incredibly broad idea.

 

And first of all, every stat was not important to every character. Secondly, it didn't need to be.

 

The big complaint about this is "They're fixing something that wasn't broken," but that's the truth about combining everything into Might in the first place. Did PoE need to just directly copy D&D stats or other traditional stats over and not change anything? No. But mashing all power into one stat didn't do anyone any good.

 

The focus needs to simply be to make all stats valuable (not necessary) to all classes. If I want a Wizard to do not use any weapons well, but just focus everything he has into blasting people with spells, then Might/Strength becomes a dump stat only for me in this one context. It's not useless to Wizards, as they have spells that summon weapons that rely on Strength to deal damage with.

 

Should guns get a damage boost from Strength? No. Ideally not. There are a lot of things that could be bettered in the system, but not by arbitrarily eliminating two separate elements of characters by mashing them together into one measurement.

 

As I've said before... if ANY system has a reason to separate physical power and magical power, it's the one in which all classes have both things (all classes use soul power, unlike other systems in which some classes aren't magical in any capacity, and others are).

 

It's infuriating how many people are actually just whining about this, because they don't have any good reason to be upset other than "a thing happened that I feel like I hate." If Concentration or a certain defense is too lackluster or too powerful, or too many things are on one stat, you fix that isolated problem. You don't just go "My car's tires are pretty bald, so I just replaced my car with a semi truck that had new tires on it!". Well... problem solved, in that you now have a vehicle with grippy tires. But now you've changed about a dozen other factors about your vehicle that didn't need to be changed.

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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No more muscle wizard is a plus for me. Had myself a really tough time roleplaying that... I understood very well how people were rationalizing it and I tried to but at the end of the day it was a struggle to make it hold water. Either way for me there SHOULD be a clear cut difference between physical strength and mental strength and spiritual strength... Like one being portrayed by strength one by intellect and the other by resolve for instance. Either way, it seems like a step in the right direction for me mechanics be damned... You can always alter those while testing or in future patches.

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Moving more damage bonuses to other attributes brings us perilously close to nickelling and diming Strength until it's only useful for a very narrow subset of characters. And even then it's not required. Which is a common trap that I know Obsidian are aware of.

Edited by MortyTheGobbo

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Use Strength to measure how big a tome you can hold in your hand while casting a Wizard spell... heh.


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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No more muscle wizard is a plus for me. Had myself a really tough time roleplaying that... I understood very well how people were rationalizing it and I tried to but at the end of the day it was a struggle to make it hold water. Either way for me there SHOULD be a clear cut difference between physical strength and mental strength and spiritual strength... Like one being portrayed by strength one by intellect and the other by resolve for instance. Either way, it seems like a step in the right direction for me mechanics be damned... You can always alter those while testing or in future patches.

 

And I'm the opposite. Muscle wizards are a cool aspect of how the PoE world works. I'd be sad to see them go.

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"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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There is nothing wrong with experimentation, however they had a system that while it had it's flaws it did work. There is a difference between experimenting to make a better system, and experimenting for experiments sake.

Yeah. I built websites for a company that still uses their home-built 20 year old, crappy Typo3-derivate. It is far past the point were minor changes can disguise the fact that it is old. It should have been rebuilt from the ground or better totally replaced years ago. But as my boss always says:

 

"It may have it's flaws, but it works. Why should we change something that works?"

 

To improve it, of course. To see, if it can be made better. To be the ones, that do the next step and not always the ones that crawl over the finish line after all other competitors. To have a unique piece of software and not another clone. And last but not least: Just to find out, what works best and not be satisfied by the first solution that kinda works. Why do a sequel and not try to make it better? Just compare BG1 to BG2.

 

In my opinion "Never touch a running system!" is a mantra for calming down lazy developers.

BG2 didn't completely rework all the combat mechanics and stat system. It's not really equivalent. Experimentation for experimentation sake risks replacing functional systems with less functional systems. Worse, sometimes you just shift the problem but now it's hidden better.

 

Fixing problems is good; losing solutions in the search for perfection is not.

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No more muscle wizard is a plus for me. Had myself a really tough time roleplaying that... I understood very well how people were rationalizing it and I tried to but at the end of the day it was a struggle to make it hold water. Either way for me there SHOULD be a clear cut difference between physical strength and mental strength and spiritual strength... Like one being portrayed by strength one by intellect and the other by resolve for instance. Either way, it seems like a step in the right direction for me mechanics be damned... You can always alter those while testing or in future patches.

 

And I'm the opposite. Muscle wizards are a cool aspect of how the PoE world works. I'd be sad to see them go.

 

we like might as it is.  we don't like resolve as it is. 

 

given our preferred character type is melee capable casters, the change should have a particular deleterious impact 'pon us.  have almost a dozen variations o' helwalker/caster we were testing.  helwalker/priest of eothas clear ain't a powergamer build, but the might build made for both admirable weapon damage and extreme impressive heals.  the change to strength serious borks much o' the build flexibility... or it would if Gromnir were worried 'bout extreme optimization.

 

15,10,10,13,16,14 

 

the change has us likely flipping resolve and might/strength scores

 

14,10,10,13,16,15 

 

or perhaps

 

10,10,10,15,17,16

 

even four or five points o' might/strength, when viewed from perspective of a geared mid or high level character, is significant, but hardly game altering.

 

*shrug*

 

as a player who don't optimize much and who has nevertheless completed numerous potd runs with the obsidian companions as 'posed to created hirelings, am believing poe character capabilities is far less a matter o' starting stats than it is 'bout power and talent choices... and gear.

 

poe saw a few changes to stats.  recall the functional halving o' the deflection bonus for resolve after release?  *chuckle* the collective howl o' fandom were inspiring.  shakespeare would be proud.

 

 

most likely don't recall all the crippling stat changes from poe.  a week or month will make this change equal forgettable... and it does help resolve.

 

is also gonna be more changes, so is probable best to wait and see how the next release actual plays, 'cause resolve ain't being changed in a vacuum.

 

HA! Good Fun!

  • Like 4

"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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as a player who don't optimize much and who has nevertheless completed numerous potd runs with the obsidian companions as 'posed to created hirelings, am believing poe character capabilities is far less a matter o' starting stats than it is 'bout power and talent choices... and gear.

 

 

"applause"

 

given our preferred character type is melee capable casters, the change should have a particular deleterious impact 'pon us.  have almost a dozen variations o' helwalker/caster we were testing.  helwalker/priest of eothas clear ain't a powergamer build, but the might build made for both admirable weapon damage and extreme impressive heals.  the change to strength serious borks much o' the build flexibility... or it would if Gromnir were worried 'bout extreme optimization.

 

 

The upside is that they can make melee caster spells more powerful if they split melee damage from spell damage.

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No more muscle wizard is a plus for me. Had myself a really tough time roleplaying that... I understood very well how people were rationalizing it and I tried to but at the end of the day it was a struggle to make it hold water. Either way for me there SHOULD be a clear cut difference between physical strength and mental strength and spiritual strength... Like one being portrayed by strength one by intellect and the other by resolve for instance. Either way, it seems like a step in the right direction for me mechanics be damned... You can always alter those while testing or in future patches.

 

And I'm the opposite. Muscle wizards are a cool aspect of how the PoE world works. I'd be sad to see them go.

 

we like might as it is.  we don't like resolve as it is. 

 

given our preferred character type is melee capable casters, the change should have a particular deleterious impact 'pon us.  have almost a dozen variations o' helwalker/caster we were testing.  helwalker/priest of eothas clear ain't a powergamer build, but the might build made for both admirable weapon damage and extreme impressive heals.  the change to strength serious borks much o' the build flexibility... or it would if Gromnir were worried 'bout extreme optimization.

 

15,10,10,13,16,14 

 

the change has us likely flipping resolve and might/strength scores

 

14,10,10,13,16,15 

 

or perhaps

 

10,10,10,15,17,16

 

even four or five points o' might/strength, when viewed from perspective of a geared mid or high level character, is significant, but hardly game altering.

 

*shrug*

 

as a player who don't optimize much and who has nevertheless completed numerous potd runs with the obsidian companions as 'posed to created hirelings, am believing poe character capabilities is far less a matter o' starting stats than it is 'bout power and talent choices... and gear.

 

poe saw a few changes to stats.  recall the functional halving o' the deflection bonus for resolve after release?  *chuckle* the collective howl o' fandom were inspiring.  shakespeare would be proud.

 

 

most likely don't recall all the crippling stat changes from poe.  a week or month will make this change equal forgettable... and it does help resolve.

 

is also gonna be more changes, so is probable best to wait and see how the next release actual plays, 'cause resolve ain't being changed in a vacuum.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I'm not talking about the mechanical aspects here, but rather the flavour of it. I liked that for wizards to cast the most damaging spells they needed to be extremely strong to handle the magical forces running through their bodies. It was something unique to PoE in most western RPGs.


"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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I'm not talking about the mechanical aspects here, but rather the flavour of it. I liked that for wizards to cast the most damaging spells they needed to be extremely strong to handle the magical forces running through their bodies. It was something unique to PoE in most western RPGs.

 

Wouldn't that be constitution though? 

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