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Resolve! Huh, What is it good for?


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Basically they will make a game were you have to invest into something to be good at it and you think it's stupid.

I find it stupid that spellcasters will get a deflection buff basically for free because Resolve will be their highly recommended attribute, which in turn will make them better tanks by default than most melee classes, which in turn is illogical and breaks preconception that spellcasters should be squishier than melee classes. If deflection were to be placed into a more logical attribute like CON or DEX I'm all for it and will invest accordingly.

Edited by Aramintai
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It doesn't really make them better tanks. Just slightly less likely to be hit. They'll still likely have flimsy armor, and now armor can matter way more with the huge penetration falloffs, and relatively few HPs. I understand why it's weird for a wizard to build high deflection I guess but I don't think it makes them crazy good tanks.

Edited by Breckmoney
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It doesn't really make them better tanks. Just slightly less likely to be hit. They'll still likely have flimsy armor, and now armor can matter way more with the huge penetration falloffs, and relatively few HPs. I understand why it's weird for a wizard to build high deflection I guess but I don't think it makes them crazy good tanks.

Maybe not better than a fighter with heavy armor, but definitely better than same light armored rogue or barbarian, which is weird.

 

But if you gonna build some POTD tank mage with heavy armor then, oh boy :) Best tank in da game  :facepalm:

Edited by Aramintai
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I for one welcome our new Tank-Mage Overlords!   (sarcasm)

 

 

I assume that healing from Athletics is also tied to Resolve so no more great healing for the melee guys.

 

Classes who can dump Strength

  • Wizards who cast to deal damage
  • ​Priests who heal or cast for damage
  • Druids who heal and cast for damage

Classes who can dump Resolve

  • Anyone who doesn't heal, cast offensive spells or need deflection much
    • Monks - no heal, no casts and gain wounds from taking damage
    • Bleak Walker Paladins - just avoid Lay on Hands even more than you did before
    • Barbarians - if you avoid their heal they don't lose out on anything
    • Chanter - if you skip the damage chants like Dragon Thrashed and stick to the CC style invocations, so only use  a summon or the paralyze (boring...)
    • Ranger - just skip healing the pet
    • Rogues - no heal and no casting
    • Soul Blade multi-classes that never use Cipher damage spells (doable but much more boring)

Classes that need both Strength and Resolve  ​ 

  • Any sort of hybrid, you know the fun classes
    • Chanters who want to make use of their damage invocations and be useful in melee (huge nerf)
    • Ciphers - need damage for focus and damage spells are a big part of their repertoire (huge nerf)
    • Fighters - their constant recovery will need Resolve to not be useless and will never get pumped up
    • Druids who wanted to cast and shapeshift, you know like every Druid there is. (huge nerf)
    • Paladins who want to heal
    • Priests who wanted to fight with melee (goodbye Priest of Berath)

Looking at the list this doesn't change the usefulness of dumping Resolve, it just makes dumping Strength a no brainer for pure casters. Your melee monsters like Barbarians and Monks will still drop Resolve, your casters will now drop Strength, hybrid classes will be nerfed hard and Ciphers will re-roll into something else.

 

I don't see how this is good at any level.

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Removing deflection from resolve is the best idea right now imo. To solve the obvious "tanky wizard" problem, as well is to combat the fact that it just makes no sense from a logical perspective and never did. How does mental strength and willpower stop someone from getting hit? Maybe next time my boxing coach tells me to parry an attack I'll just think really hard about his fist not hitting me in the face and see if he misses... 

Might (sorry, STRENGTH) or Dex just seem like more logical solutions to house deflection. Dex probably being best as far as gameplay is concerned as it would still force some choice as to whether you want raw dmg or defense.

Or just go with Aramintai's suggestion and do-away with deflection from attributes altogether, I like that too.

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Deflection should be moved to dex since you are more likely to use your dexterity to parry and dodge an attack instead of your resolve? And whoever is arguing that a spellcaster is all right to be a "slighter" better tank is either being intellectually dishonest in order to buff your favorite playstyle or not getting the concept of types of mitigation.

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I for one welcome our new Tank-Mage Overlords!   (sarcasm)

 

 

I assume that healing from Athletics is also tied to Resolve so no more great healing for the melee guys.

 

Classes who can dump Strength

  • Wizards who cast to deal damage
  • ​Priests who heal or cast for damage
  • Druids who heal and cast for damage

Classes who can dump Resolve

  • Anyone who doesn't heal, cast offensive spells or need deflection much
    • Monks - no heal, no casts and gain wounds from taking damage
    • Bleak Walker Paladins - just avoid Lay on Hands even more than you did before
    • Barbarians - if you avoid their heal they don't lose out on anything
    • Chanter - if you skip the damage chants like Dragon Thrashed and stick to the CC style invocations, so only use  a summon or the paralyze (boring...)
    • Ranger - just skip healing the pet
    • Rogues - no heal and no casting
    • Soul Blade multi-classes that never use Cipher damage spells (doable but much more boring)

Classes that need both Strength and Resolve  ​ 

  • Any sort of hybrid, you know the fun classes
    • Chanters who want to make use of their damage invocations and be useful in melee (huge nerf)
    • Ciphers - need damage for focus and damage spells are a big part of their repertoire (huge nerf)
    • Fighters - their constant recovery will need Resolve to not be useless and will never get pumped up
    • Druids who wanted to cast and shapeshift, you know like every Druid there is. (huge nerf)
    • Paladins who want to heal
    • Priests who wanted to fight with melee (goodbye Priest of Berath)

Looking at the list this doesn't change the usefulness of dumping Resolve, it just makes dumping Strength a no brainer for pure casters. Your melee monsters like Barbarians and Monks will still drop Resolve, your casters will now drop Strength, hybrid classes will be nerfed hard and Ciphers will re-roll into something else.

 

I don't see how this is good at any level.

To the extent that drawbacks are class-specific, that's an easy fix.  Base values of class abilities can be tuned. 

 

Wizards too tanky?  Lower the class's base Deflection.  Cipher damage spells less effective because players invest in STR over RES?  Make the base damage for those spells 5% higher.  Etc. 

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I for one welcome our new Tank-Mage Overlords!   (sarcasm)

 

 

I assume that healing from Athletics is also tied to Resolve so no more great healing for the melee guys.

 

Classes who can dump Strength

  • Wizards who cast to deal damage
  • ​Priests who heal or cast for damage
  • Druids who heal and cast for damage

Classes who can dump Resolve

  • Anyone who doesn't heal, cast offensive spells or need deflection much
    • Monks - no heal, no casts and gain wounds from taking damage
    • Bleak Walker Paladins - just avoid Lay on Hands even more than you did before
    • Barbarians - if you avoid their heal they don't lose out on anything
    • Chanter - if you skip the damage chants like Dragon Thrashed and stick to the CC style invocations, so only use  a summon or the paralyze (boring...)
    • Ranger - just skip healing the pet
    • Rogues - no heal and no casting
    • Soul Blade multi-classes that never use Cipher damage spells (doable but much more boring)

Classes that need both Strength and Resolve  ​ 

  • Any sort of hybrid, you know the fun classes
    • Chanters who want to make use of their damage invocations and be useful in melee (huge nerf)
    • Ciphers - need damage for focus and damage spells are a big part of their repertoire (huge nerf)
    • Fighters - their constant recovery will need Resolve to not be useless and will never get pumped up
    • Druids who wanted to cast and shapeshift, you know like every Druid there is. (huge nerf)
    • Paladins who want to heal
    • Priests who wanted to fight with melee (goodbye Priest of Berath)

Looking at the list this doesn't change the usefulness of dumping Resolve, it just makes dumping Strength a no brainer for pure casters. Your melee monsters like Barbarians and Monks will still drop Resolve, your casters will now drop Strength, hybrid classes will be nerfed hard and Ciphers will re-roll into something else.

 

I don't see how this is good at any level.

To the extent that drawbacks are class-specific, that's an easy fix.  Base values of class abilities can be tuned. 

 

Wizards too tanky?  Lower the class's base Deflection.  Cipher damage spells less effective because players invest in STR over RES?  Make the base damage for those spells 5% higher.  Etc. 

 

 

All classes, except Barbarian for some reason, have the same base deflection. If you start jacking around those where do you stop? Only Wizards take the deflection penalty or Priests as well? Better to move deflection to dexterity if you must add spell damage to Resolve.

 

If you crank up Cipher damage spells what happens with someone who does get a lot of points into Resolve? 

 

Again if the problem was people dumping Resolve the proposed solution does not fix this and in fact just makes it optimal to dump Strength for some classes as well as making hybrid classes gimped. 

 

​Most classes who were inclined to dump Resolve while adding it to Intellect will still do so, Pure casters can now dump Strength and add to Constitution to keep the same Fortitude and gain a massive amount of health which will then be maintained by their strong heals with extra deflection just gravy. Hybrid classes who need both have real difficulties now.

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Removing deflection from resolve is the best idea right now imo. To solve the obvious "tanky wizard" problem, as well is to combat the fact that it just makes no sense from a logical perspective and never did. How does mental strength and willpower stop someone from getting hit? Maybe next time my boxing coach tells me to parry an attack I'll just think really hard about his fist not hitting me in the face and see if he misses... 

 

Might (sorry, STRENGTH) or Dex just seem like more logical solutions to house deflection. Dex probably being best as far as gameplay is concerned as it would still force some choice as to whether you want raw dmg or defense.

 

Or just go with Aramintai's suggestion and do-away with deflection from attributes altogether, I like that too.

The issue in my mind is not even the Deflection, by overtuning Resolve you have just made more character concepts M.A.D without actually preventing the other half from STILL dumping it

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Again if the problem was people dumping Resolve the proposed solution does not fix this and in fact just makes it optimal to dump Strength for some classes as well as making hybrid classes gimped. 

 

 

Well, according to Josh bad builds is more important than no dump stat, but i don't think this goes very far to solve that problem either. A single class rogue with 20 resolve is still gunna be just as useless as it was before he had all that extra spell dmg.

 

Edit: okay new character concept: a Trickster rogue with maxed int and resolve, extra quick item slot, and maxed arcana who just uses scrolls  :grin:

Edited by ShakotanSolari
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Basically they will make a game were you have to invest into something to be good at it and you think it's stupid.

I find it stupid that spellcasters will get a deflection buff basically for free because Resolve will be their highly recommended attribute, which in turn will make them better tanks by default than most melee classes, which in turn is illogical and breaks preconception that spellcasters should be squishier than melee classes. If deflection were to be placed into a more logical attribute like CON or DEX I'm all for it and will invest accordingly.

 

They  don't get a deflection buff for free, they have to invest in resolve. Spellcasters can choose intelligence instead of resolve or any other stats. 

 

A 3 points difference in deflection does not make you a  significantly better tank.

 

Not everyone will dump stats or max resolve or whatever.  Some people like to roleplay instead of powergaming.

 

Moving deflection to dexterity would be fine for me. 

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To the extent that drawbacks are class-specific, that's an easy fix.  Base values of class abilities can be tuned. 

 

 

 

I'm having a really hard time seeing how you can fix this without either giving Ciphers a ****load of free extra stat points or massively re-designing the class.

 

Ciphers require weapon damage to function. Without it, they can't get focus.

 

I just counted, and out of the 29 Cipher powers in the Beta, roughly 14 of them -- i.e., approximately half -- are damage powers that do damage and will be effected by Resolve.

 

So Ciphers now have different stats for weapon damage (mandatory) and for spell damage (core class function). 

 

On top of that, they need Int for CC durations and Area of Effect on their powers (near-mandatory), they need Perception to hit (absolutely critical, since missing *either* while gaining focus or while casting means no spell effect happens). They also can't neglect Dex because it's effect on action speed means it's a damage stat both for weapons and for casting. So their only real dump stat is Con, and you can only take so many points off of Con before you start getting oneshotted.

 

So everyone else in the game gets a dump stat, except Ciphers.  

 

And that's on top of all the other changes which have functionally nerfed ciphers (the removal of Grazing hurt them more than any other class, for the same reasons that Perception is important, as above; they have all the general caster problems where cast times are longer than power durations etc; the generalized move to per-encounter casting made the focus system a liability rather than advantage; etc. etc. etc).

 

I'm not sure I know how to make a cipher under the proposed system any more. There's just not enough stats for them to be effective. Even if you decide to go pure crowd control, enough crowd control cipher powers have damage components that dumping Resolve is a poor long-term choice, and without a dump stat, you can't raise the other stats high enough to be effective, because the game is balanced to at least some degree around the concept that characters will have stats appropriate for their jobs. 

 

EDIT: plus if you overtune  single-class ciphers too much, you make them too powerful when taken as hybrids. If you, say, give Ciphers an additional  15 % across-the-board weapon damage boost, so they don't have to put points in might . . . people will make berserker/ciphers or assassin/ciphers or whatever that stack might and only dip into ciphers for the passives and maybe a few damage powers. 

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
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To the extent that drawbacks are class-specific, that's an easy fix.  Base values of class abilities can be tuned. 

 

 

 

I'm having a really hard time seeing how you can fix this without either giving Ciphers a ****load of free extra stat points or massively re-designing the class.

 

Ciphers require weapon damage to function. Without it, they can't get focus.

 

I just counted, and out of the 29 Cipher powers in the Beta, roughly 14 of them -- i.e., approximately half -- are damage powers that do damage and will be effected by Resolve.

 

So Ciphers now have different stats for weapon damage (mandatory) and for spell damage (core class function). 

 

On top of that, they need Int for CC durations and Area of Effect on their powers (near-mandatory), they need Perception to hit (absolutely critical, since missing *either* while gaining focus or while casting means no spell effect happens). They also can't neglect Dex because it's effect on action speed means it's a damage stat both for weapons and for casting. So their only real dump stat is Con, and you can only take so many points off of Con before you start getting oneshotted.

 

So everyone else in the game gets a dump stat, except Ciphers.  

 

And that's on top of all the other changes which have functionally nerfed ciphers (the removal of Grazing hurt them more than any other class, for the same reasons that Perception is important, as above; they have all the general caster problems where cast times are longer than power durations etc; the generalized move to per-encounter casting made the focus system a liability rather than advantage; etc. etc. etc).

 

I'm not sure I know how to make a cipher under the proposed system any more. There's just not enough stats for them to be effective. Even if you decide to go pure crowd control, enough crowd control cipher powers have damage components that dumping Resolve is a poor long-term choice, and without a dump stat, you can't raise the other stats high enough to be effective, because the game is balanced to at least some degree around the concept that characters will have stats appropriate for their jobs. 

 

Yeah, as if ciphers don't have it bad enough already... 

 

I'm sure they'll still be viable on lower difficulties if you just spread stats out instead of min maxing, but gunna be pretty troublesome trying to play one on PotD. Seems like ciphers are destined to be relegated into the realm of mediocrity.

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folks do realize the only reason why hybrids is tougher to optimize is 'cause resolve is closer to being universal useful, yes?  

 

and speaking as one who almost never played poe with optimized stats, we can say with conviction, this current change to resolve will not cripple hybrid builds. 

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84838-optimal-starting-stats-and-late-game-signifficance-for-wizard/?p=1782213

 

can find a half dozen near identical posts from Gromnir.

 

have played numerous variations o' a contemplative with stats near identical to the ones we got revealed in the linked post as our choice for priests.  is no undue burden playing such a character.  kinda refreshing to be seeing how we will actual benefit from playing our typical stat spread... though at the moment, assuming no other balancing changes is being made (which is a foolish assumption) our paladin tank with mediocre might would be seeing a bit o' a power-up if played in deadfire.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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A 3 points difference in deflection does not make you a  significantly better tank.

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be.

Edited by Aramintai
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A 3 points difference in deflection does not make you a  significantly better tank.

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be.

 

you are assuming no other changes is being made?  give the caster classes the same base deflection as barbarians solves the deflection issue people seem to be concerned 'bout.  am not saying such a change will be made, but is best not to assume we know all changes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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A 3 points difference in deflection does not make you a  significantly better tank.

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be.

 

you are assuming no other changes is being made?  give the caster classes the same base deflection as barbarians solves the deflection issue people seem to be concerned 'bout.  am not saying such a change will be made, but is best not to assume we know all changes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I don't know what devs are gonna do or won't do. All I can do is operate with what we got now. And right now it doesn't look good at all.

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An attribute spread of 8/10/12/14/16/18 is perfectly serviceable, makes for good roleplaying, and if you want to build a tanky fighter, you should (and can) invest into resolve anyway.

Wizards are hardly the new tank-lords, in particular if you consider their endurance values.

Edited by Doppelschwert
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A 3 points difference in deflection does not make you a  significantly better tank.

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be.

 

 

I'm confused. Spellcasters start with a penalty to their deflection, which isn't overcome even by maxing out Resolve. How will they be better tanks in the new system?

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A 3 points difference in deflection does not make you a  significantly better tank.

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be.

 

 

I'm confused. Spellcasters start with a penalty to their deflection, which isn't overcome even by maxing out Resolve. How will they be better tanks in the new system?

 

 

Only barbarians have lower base deflection, and only Fighters have higher. Everyone else starts with 20 so a Paladin = Wizard = Rogue

 

A damage dealing melee will max out Strength while a Spell nuker can dump strength and place those points in Constitution so that their Fortitude does not suffer. The Damage dealing nuker can then max Resolve.

 

These two actions: trading Strength for Con and maxing Resolve, will give Damage dealing nukers high health and better deflection and  to go along with their better healing.

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An attribute spread of 8/10/12/14/16/18 is perfectly serviceable, makes for good roleplaying, and if you want to build a tanky fighter, you should (and can) invest into resolve anyway.

Wizards are hardly the new tank-lords, in particular if you consider their endurance values.

I'm not against investing into deflection if it weren't put into the "must have" spellcaster  specific attribute. Melee classes need deflection to tank, spellcasters generally don't tank at at all, so what on earth is deflection doing in a non-melee attribute? And if devs themselves admitted that there should be dump stats there is no point in defending Resolve anymore. It's gonna get enough value for spellcasters as it is. Deflection has no place there anymore and from a logical point of view never did, actually.

 

As for wizards not being tanks, there were some ridiculous potd wizard tank builds even in POE1. In POE2 things are gonna get even easier  :facepalm:

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A damage dealing melee will max out Strength while a Spell nuker can dump strength and place those points in Constitution so that their Fortitude does not suffer. The Damage dealing nuker can then max Resolve.

More food for wizard tanks  :facepalm: Is wizard gonna be the new god tier class in POE2? I call for nerf now before it gets ugly :)

Edited by Aramintai
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