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Criticism of the changes to the magic system


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At least at level 6, it seems like even if the Wizard was able to spam the spells she has, it would still not compete vs a good melee build. 

Then you know something is wrong.

Did you check your hit vs misses?

 

Grazing is gone (by default, you need passives/buff to have it and it's all mostly on melee classes), that means you do 35% more misses than in POE1 at equal accuracy/deflection (doesn't seems like the window changed). Although, at some point I felt more like I have missing all the time with my character last night (5 misses in a row with 52 deflection vs 50 accuracy).

 

Spell misses now, a lot.

 

I'll check more maths tonight, there is a couple of other things that bother me.

 

edit:

 

For people wondering, the miss rate at equal deflection/accuracy is 40% now.

Edited by morhilane
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Azarhal, Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order of Eternity.


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I haven't checked it, but I think you're absolutely right. Most spells miss or don't trigger due to failed %-rolls (the chances are always low or very low)

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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As a counterpoint to the idea of per-rest abilities, and the idea of whether to conserve or not in a given fight, I feel like it always comes down to guesswork (Unless you've already played through the game before, which I personally don't think should be a consideration). You might know that you haven't faced the 'boss' of a dungeon, but will you need to save that big AoE spell for it? Or maybe it's going to be more of a single-target affair? Is it better to have a fortitude or will attacking spell for it? I suppose a general strategy is just 'use the minimum possible', which I don't find very compelling. When your spells are all per encounter, it's not a question of whether to  use a spell at all, but rather, whether to use this spell at this time or not. And considering you seem to have 2 casts per level, that's still a fairly important choice. You can essentially see everything involved in the choice you're going to make, rather than guessing at a nebulous future.

 

That being said, at the moment it does feel like they've increased cast times, without a subsequent increase in spell power. So far I've only really played with the mercenary wizard (without knowing that you can turn off the auto-level and choose level them manually, so I've had to deal with a spell selection I'm not really a fan of), but things feel like they take a while to get off without having a large impact. I also suspect the removal of grazes in general (with them only happening with specific talents/buffs) was something of a targeted nerf at debuff spells (which I do feel were too strong in pillars 1, the optimal way to handle tough fights seemed to be debuff until they're not that tough). Now that you don't have a chance at half duration, which may have been all you really needed to get in a knockdown or petrify or whatever, debuffs are going to feel less effective. Armor seems more impactful as well, especially for burst damage spells.

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Grazing is gone (by default, you need passives/buff to have it and it's all mostly on melee classes), that means you do 35% more misses than in POE1 at equal accuracy/deflection [...]

For people wondering, the miss rate at equal deflection/accuracy is 40% now.

 

 

It was 15% in PoE1. So it's 167% more misses.

Vancian =/= per rest.

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Grazing is gone (by default, you need passives/buff to have it and it's all mostly on melee classes), that means you do 35% more misses than in POE1 at equal accuracy/deflection [...]

For people wondering, the miss rate at equal deflection/accuracy is 40% now.

 

It was 15% in PoE1. So it's 167% more misses.

 

The 35% was in regard to POE2 deflection/accuracy system gaining 35% misses chance (i.e. 35% graze turned to misses), not the actually difference from both games. Although, that's kinda scary number.

 

and that 40% up there was me thinking misses in POE1 were at 5% at equal deflection/accuracy. doh.

Azarhal, Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order of Eternity.


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Yeah I think the lack of grazes really hurts spells in a way that's very unfun.

 

I think spells at a minimum need some sort of miss protection, even in D&D they've generally added partial damage or partial effects to spell misses in the last couple editions.

 

Personally, right now I think the old graze system should just come back for everything, a 60% chance to do nothing with an action the majority of the time Feels Bad Man. But even if they don't wanna go that route, I think spells and powerful abilities should always benefit from grazes or something. It's tolerate for auto-attacks but just makes my character feel passive and useless when I try to use their cool class-specific abilities and get a boring old nothing.

Edited by Answermancer
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Yeah at this point, between long cast times and the constant missing spell casters feel almost worthless. Add to that penetration and it feels really not great.

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.... moreover ....

 

the long casting times aren't doing it for me

 

Non-Empowered spells (also some cipher abilities) are pretty low-impact. With the long casting times and the consequent risk of getting interrupted, a lot of the time they just aren't worth it: I feel that I'd be better off straight-up attacking. 

 

Put another way, casters aren't much fun anymore. It's like the system is designed with martial classes in mind, and it works quite well for them, but surely that can't be the intention.

 

 

Yah, a lot of the caster spells and cipher powers (also chanter phrases) feel like they're badly in need of a couple rounds of balancing passes. I don't think the new system is necessarily going to be anti-caster but as currently implemented casters need a lot of rebalancing.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
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A big part of the problem is the merc wizard's spell selection. Hire a wizard and give them the old combusting wounds / expose vulnerabilities combo and things really take off.

Just uncheck auto-level companion in the options before creating a new character. You can manually level all the mercenaries.

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Azarhal, Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order of Eternity.


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A big part of the problem is the merc wizard's spell selection. Hire a wizard and give them the old combusting wounds / expose vulnerabilities combo and things really take off.

Just uncheck auto-level companion in the options before creating a new character. You can manually level all the mercenaries.

 

 

 

Thanks, that's actually a really good tip. Wish you could multiclass 'em though.

 

Looks like you get a fair number of bonus spells this way because the merc wizard's grimoire keeps the spells it has in it.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
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I have practice more and more the beta.

 

I can now give my opinion more reliable on this subject. Even if I play a bit more better with casters since a few sessions, there is 2 points which remain problematic for me :

 

1) Too long cast time. There is 2 small problems with that. A) interrupting by myself (Heal my companion, now !) or ennemy during CASTING TIME. YOU LOSE the point definitively. B) Globally, it is too much ineffective (Miss) for the time loss. It remain differents buff and no-graze spells. But it is not enough.

 

2) The lack of Talents for priest and others. Priest who... also have a restrictive school ! So, less spells too ! Imbelievable !

Edited by theBalthazar
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Another problem with the slow magic:

 

Any kind of melee wiz or even melee cipher will be a chore to play.

 

Strange choice for a game that had those character concepts as a big selling point. 

"The harder the world, the fiercer the honour."

Weapon master,- Flail of the dead horse +5.

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Another problem with the slow magic:

 

Any kind of melee wiz or even melee cipher will be a chore to play.

 

Strange choice for a game that had those character concepts as a big selling point. 

Was just trying a fighter/wizard with summoned weapons yesterday. The casting time for summoned weapons is a problem.

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Also remember that currently melee is bugged in that all single handed medium speed weapons have a 1 second recovery instead of the 3 seconds they should have. Basically melee is doing twice the damage it should. This makes magic and two handed weapons look poor in comparison. 

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One thing that's been bugging me is that cancelling casting (e.g., by moving or choosing a different spell) eats that resource. Especially annoying when you want to retarget a spell but the new target is out of range. Dunno if this is intended or not, but having to start over the long casting animation is punitive enough for cancelling spells without having to also deal with losing a resource.

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Agree with the OP.

 

I don’t mind longer casting times per se, but those we have now are too long. Again, slow drags are unfun.

 

All casters should have access to spells that grant concentration, starting at 1st level with a basic one; higher level spells may grant it for longer and or with ancillary effects. It’s way too easy to be interrupted and lose a precious spell (we only get 2 per level now.)

 

We also need spells to graze. Damage spells would graze the way weapons do; affliction spells would decrease duration and apply a lower-ranking affliction (e.g. from paralyzed to stuck.)

 

Right now I can spend forever casting a spell that either misses and does nothing, or hits and is meh.

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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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I have an another problem with magic system.

 

Priest for exemple.

 

Now, we know there are 3 levels of inspiration....

 

Ok, so... Question to 1 million : What is interrest to pick level 1 and level 3, spells of priest (+perception) Two spells that do not stack ?

 

Answer : No interrest.

 

It would not be a problem, if priest wasn't choose each spell at level up...

Edited by theBalthazar
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I have an another problem with magic system.

 

Priest for exemple.

 

Now, we know there are 3 levels of inspiration....

 

Ok, so... Question to 1 million : What is interrest to pick level 1 and level 3, spells of priest (+perception) Two spells that do not stack ?

 

Answer : No interrest.

 

It would not be a problem, if priest wasn't choose each spell at level up...

 

I disagree a little bit, there are a few other considerations, for instance area of effect.

 

I have both Blessing and Dire Blessing on my priest in the beta and use both:

  • Blessing at the start of fights, because it has a massive AoE and I can hit everyone with it as they reposition.
  • Dire Blessing more surgically (the AoE is quite small) to hit my main damage dealers once they close in.
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