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Health vs. Endurance/Health


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#21
demeisen

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I'd like to argue make an impassioned plea for a new-game screen checkbox.

​My preferences in order from best to worst:

​1. A POE1-like split with one regenerating and one non-generating resource.

​2. A single health resource which does not regenerate.

.​.. insert every other possible system here which isn't...

​n. Auto-regeneration of health (and most abilities) after fights.

A key aspect of the RPG experience since pen and paper D&D in the 70's is managing your party over the course of a whole dungeon delve.  It was supposed to feel like a journey.

​POE1 is at the top of the CRPG pack for me because it improved UI quality of life, without over-simplifying game dynamics to chase mass market appeal.  My plea to Obsidian is: I can live with an un-split pool, but please at least give us an option to disable auto-regen, akin to how POE1 has a permadeath checkbox?  There are many of us for who "action RPG" style regeneration ruins RPGs.  I love Obsidian and POE1 to death - it's seriously about the best imagined CRPG world there's been - but insta-regen drives a nail in the series coffin for some of us.

Please allow us a checkbox in the new-game screen?  If we grovel, would it help?  Or get Josh Pan-Galactic-Gargle-Blaster level drunk, and then grovel?


Edited by demeisen, 16 November 2017 - 08:30 AM.

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#22
eisenschwein

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Greetings,

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

 

Haven't played the Beta yet myself but I can already tell that this is something I won't like about the revised system too.

How about tying the amount of wounds or injuries a character can sustain before collapsing to his or her constitution instead? Limiting it to 4 for all character builds, completely disregarding different physiques and levels of hardiness/toughness is simplifying things a bit too much for my taste.

If the classic endurance/health system won't be given another chance I could at least live with that compromise.


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#23
dam

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Excuse me ?

A single health resource which does not regenerate ?

 

I certainly hope you mean "which does not regenerate back to full out of combat, it can still be rejuvenated during a fight".

 

Otherwise what use is that Chanter's Ancient Memory ?

That Figther's Recovery ?

That priest's whole healing branch ?



#24
dam

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Greetings,

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

 

Haven't played the Beta yet myself but I can already tell that this is something I won't like about the revised system too.

How about tying the amount of wounds or injuries a character can sustain before collapsing to his or her constitution instead? Limiting it to 4 for all character builds, completely disregarding different physiques and levels of hardiness/toughness is simplifying things a bit too much for my taste.

If the classic endurance/health system won't be given another chance I could at least live with that compromise.

 

 

It is already tied to a character's constitution.

 

Your 22 CON fighter isn't as likely to drop as your 8 CON rogue (although one might argue the fighter's goal in life IS to get beat on so, their chance of going down increases).

 

You only get an injury if you actually fall during the fight.



#25
demeisen

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Excuse me ?

A single health resource which does not regenerate ?

 

I certainly hope you mean "which does not regenerate back to full out of combat, it can still be rejuvenated during a fight".

 

That's what I mean, yes - sorry for the ambiguity.  I meant no out-of-fight Diablo-style instant regen after fights.  Explicit in-fight healing such as via cleric spells, paladin lay-on-hands, chanters, etc, are fine.

​Editing to add: the checkbox should also make wiz/cleric/etc spells per rest, rather than per-encounter.  The point is to bring back long term resource considerations.


Edited by demeisen, 16 November 2017 - 08:44 AM.


#26
eisenschwein

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Greetings,

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

 

Haven't played the Beta yet myself but I can already tell that this is something I won't like about the revised system too.

How about tying the amount of wounds or injuries a character can sustain before collapsing to his or her constitution instead? Limiting it to 4 for all character builds, completely disregarding different physiques and levels of hardiness/toughness is simplifying things a bit too much for my taste.

If the classic endurance/health system won't be given another chance I could at least live with that compromise.

 

 

It is already tied to a character's constitution.

 

Your 22 CON fighter isn't as likely to drop as your 8 CON rogue (although one might argue the fighter's goal in life IS to get beat on so, their chance of going down increases).

 

You only get an injury if you actually fall during the fight.

 

 

Thanks, I figured that much.

A puny wizard being able to sustain only 2 wounds while a towering barbarian could be wounded 6 times and still go on would be a more elegant implementation though. Especially within the roleplaying context.


Edited by eisenschwein, 16 November 2017 - 09:00 AM.

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#27
TheC

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In my opinion, it is a give and take...

 

With this new system, your characters no longer lose maximum health without being knocked out. In the old system, just taking dmg will eventually lead to the need for rest from fighting despite having never been defeated. It made healing in combat feel like only a tempory fix like a hasty bandage instead of magical intervention.

The old system was very interesting but I am definitely willing to give this one a try, especially with the changes to resting they have added.

 


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#28
desel

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Greetings,

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

 

Cheers for starting the topic and sharing your impressions on the matter, probably couldn't have summarized my opinion any better.

 

 

Haven't played the Beta yet myself but I can already tell that this is something I won't like about the revised system too.

How about tying the amount of wounds or injuries a character can sustain before collapsing to his or her constitution instead? Limiting it to 4 for all character builds, completely disregarding different physiques and levels of hardiness/toughness is simplifying things a bit too much for my taste.

If the classic endurance/health system won't be given another chance I could at least live with that compromise.

 

A puny wizard being able to sustain only 2 wounds while a towering barbarian could be wounded 6 times and still go on would be a more elegant implementation though. Especially within the roleplaying context.

 

My thoughts exactly.

Constitution would be another factor in the likeliness of a character receiving a wound/getting injured (higher constitution -> less likely to receive a wound/getting injured)

and would also determine the max amount of wounds/injuries a character can accumulate before succumbing to death (higher constitution -> higher amount of wounds/injuries to sustain).

Much better than just setting the max amount to a fix number across-the-board for all characters and classes.

 

Currently it really feels like they just lazily copy-pasted the whole thing from Tyranny.


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#29
Katarack21

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I'm not sure how much Deadfire combat you guys have under your belts, but I feel this new system is at least as good as the old one in PoE1.

Your characters get injuries a lot (unknowingly, I've been fighting higher-level content, so I know), and when you don't have enough food or the right food, your characters stumble into the battle with lesser set health pools and other penalties. I had at least three exciting fights with three of my party members gimped (always those mercenaries - the character I made was tough as nails).

You get two injuries, you're at 50% health, you rest. That's the new system. It's encourage rest spam in a way the health/endurance split never did.

In the old system I could got four, five battles with most of my team knocked out, barely surviving each one, scraping along, before I was forced to rest. I could barely survive three battles, hit four traps, and *then* rest. Longer, if I had triage. Here, that's a total no go. Three of my party members get knocked out twice and I'm resting, every time. Three of my party members get hit by two traps and I'm resting, every time.

Why? Because health pool is a much more serious effect than accuracy, perception, etc. Two injuries put a character down to 50% health. Over half my part at 50% health? No ****ing way am I going into combat. Over half my part at -5 perception, -20 accuracy, -5 resolve? I might push it.

It *sucks*. I really, really hate it.


Edited by Katarack21, 16 November 2017 - 05:08 PM.

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#30
OrangePulp

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I'm somewhat split on this topic, as I did like the idea of health being a resource overall; there are some things I enjoy about not having it, though. Running weaker characters such as ciphers and wizards as melee seems like it will be more practical, as in pillars 1 I typically felt like eventually I'd have to rest simply based on the lower pool of health those classes had, due to incidental damage they'd take. In general having a strategy of enduring and healing damage is much more viable.

 

Boeroer mentions just stacking healing and focusing on offense (and presumably ignoring defense), and granted, he knows PoE better than I or probably anyone else on these boards. Still, I feel like that's more a question of specific balance, rather than healing itself being overpowered or not. I don't feel like stacking healing as a defensive option is inherently worse than other defenses, unless it's way easier to achieve or what have you.

 

Something else to consider is that in one of the QAs, Josh Sawyer said that he personally liked the health/endurance system, so presumably it wasn't just some sort of knee-jerk reaction. Might come down to the changes overall regarding resting, per-rest abilities (which I've hated since AD&D, thanks Jack Vance), and how all that interplays.



#31
Folie a deux

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Greetings,

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

 

Speaking from a main Monk's point of view here, I'm loving that they did away with the health/endurance pools.

Your monk could only go so far before being *forced* to rest, for no actual reason.

 

It does feel very different though, aye.

 

Exclusively playing an unarmed Monk here as well and I find the current health-only system a definite change for the worse. I think that the additional "endurance buffer" on top of the health pool actually allowed you to go further and longer before the inevitable rest, even with the Monk's inherent disadvantage of having to take damage and thus being more prone to injuries.

After reading a couple of impressions I guess it's the same for other melee-oriented classes who are now more vulnerable and have to rest more often because of the missing "endurance buffer".

 

In consequence I have to agree on endurance/health being the more thought-out and elegant system of the two.


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#32
Folie a deux

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The limitation to 4 injuries feels incredibly stilted as well.
Why exactly 4 anyway? And why is it the same for every character, no matter the build or class?


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#33
Katarack21

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The limitation to 4 injuries feels incredibly stilted as well.
Why exactly 4 anyway? And why is it the same for every character, no matter the build or class?

Because there's still an arbitrary health/endurance split, but injuries are tied directly to health and to food as a gameplay control mechanic. The injury limit is arbitrary and set to four because it's purpose is much closer to that of camping supplies than anything else.



#34
PrimeJunta

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Chalk me up as a fan of the old system as well.


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#35
eisenschwein

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Not a fan of the visual representation either (blood droplets?).
I know it's all still work in progress and probably (I hope!) place holders, but I'd prefer a good old bar ticking down over those weird "traffic lights" any day of the week.

Just... bring back endurance/health, mkay?


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#36
Osvir

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A solution: Options at New Game select.

Classic Mode (Health/Endurance), Injury Mode (Health+Injury Death), and Hybrid Mode (Health/Endurance+Injury Death)

Just examples, but you catch my drift. Of course, more work for Obsidian so I don't know. They've fiddled with this Injury system since... since probably a long time now. Rolling back and re-balancing would probably take a lot of resources, but alas, I said it already when it was announced way back when, when it was said they were trying a new system: Health/Endurance was and is still fine (in Pillars 1).

Although, I wonder if they have any inactive Endurance system developed in the background in case of too much negative feedback around the new system. You know, a sort of "Plan B".

But, I haven't experimented with the new system enough to know enough. I just pretty much jumped in and enjoyed my time. Combat felt nice, just a tad bit fast (but I pause so much so I can't quite get a grasp on "combat speed"). I don't really have much of an opinion around it yet, except that I did glance over my party portraits after a big fight and I believe I raised an eyebrow slightly when I saw that they were all at full health (which, in Pillars 1, they wouldn't have been).


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#37
Gorionsson

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Yep.

This health / injury system just sucks.

Fight - rest, fight ,- rest. Gets annoying really fast.


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#38
Osvir

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But this can be mitigated by proper combat sequencing. If you master combat, non of your characters get injured.

And whilst many say "Git gud isn't an argument". I have to say, it really is an argument. Start on an easier difficulty and move up.

In pretty much every game I've played I've always started low, Easy, and when I get more understanding I move up in difficulty. It's methodical and very learning.

Others have different personal experiences, and learn different ways. Just saying, I started on Casual before I managed Brutal in Starcraft 2.

Some I believe feel "I am Veteran. I am good!". But then reality hits and there is denial, it is a new system and they just can't accept that they aren't "that good". YET! Anybody can get "gud", you just need to devote some energy and time.

#39
FrcdXpsr

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Not really feeling this as well, for pretty much the same reasons the OP described plus the glaring issue of the fixed number of wounds for all characters and builds.

This may have been suitable for Tyranny but adopting it for Deadfire feels all kinds of wrong, especially when Pillars 1 already had - imo - perfected a rather unique system which also takes into account a character's endurance.
It may be just one cog in the machine but I really think it's something that makes Pillars Pillars and stand out as a cRPG that does things different than others. This should be capitalized on and not wasted.


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#40
Starwars

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What I really liked about the health/endurance in PoE was that you took "long-term" damage even if you play the encounters well. Now, this long-term strategizing isn't anything *hard* to manage but I feel it created a rather nice layer of... well, even if you're good at the game, being in combat still takes its toll on your people, it's fatiguing, it will "grind you down". I love the feel of that. For me, aside from all the strictly mechanical reasons to do so, it makes resting kinda "make sense" in the game-world. That's a reason why I really disliked that they got rid of the fatigue debuff if you kept going for a long time without resting. Not because it makes the game hard, oh no. But it's a tiny little thing that makes the game-world feel a bit more logical, a bit more real for me.

 

I hate the idea that, if you play really well in Deadfire, you can just keep going and going and going. Now, on a first playthrough, of course you will get knocked out every now and then, but again... for me a lot of it has to do with the feel of it. The fact that you could technically have a party that all end combat with 1 hitpoint left and everyone will be right as rain after combat. Will that happen? No, of course not. But just knowing that, mechanically speaking, it's perfectly possible makes it all feel a bit more static to me, and more boring.

It's the same thing with almost everything being turned to per-encounter. It makes the game feel controlled, instead of "breathing" a bit if that makes sense. With a system more focused on per-rest stuff, you could possibly run into a really hard encounter after spending a lot of your resources before and get owned. Or, if you had saved up, you could run into a hard encounter and be ready to unleash everything you had. I love that. And I really dislike how per-encounter systems allows the designer to perfectly tune encounters. For some people that's a great plus (and I obviously understand the upside of it), but I just feel it makes the game feel static and too tightly controlled. I love it when a game can swing wildly up and down.

 

Now, I don't think the Deadfire system is horrible at all. The empower mechanic feels a bit weird to me for example, but it is undoubtedly useful. The injury system feels rather unelegant atm with its 25% "cuts" but with some tweaking I think it can work pretty well. Certainly better than Tyranny's which I felt was incredibly boring in terms of its combat. But yeah, I am disappointed that they moved away from some of the ideas in PoE. Personally I would've loved to see them try to expand *more* on the per-rest stuff, introduce more long-term strategizing and "management". But, it is what it is.

 

But yeah, I do hope they will continue to tweak it.


Edited by Starwars, 19 November 2017 - 02:11 PM.

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