Jump to content

how does the penetration mechanic feels like?


Recommended Posts

 

b) the multiplicative damage boost when having PEN=2*AR is very powerful.

 

A solution would be just to dump that. Then there's no benefit to having more PEN than the AR.

 

 

On the flipside to that there'd be no reason to have armor at all if you didn't have enough. To have a penalty for going naked you have the system that causes extra damage when over penetrated. 

 

Estocs have more penetration but do a lot less damage than a Great Sword, having a damage adder for the extra penetration is good, but having it be the only multiplicative damage adder is not. Change that to an additive +50% like a crit and see how that works.

 

How is everyone doubling the AR so easily for these massive hits?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

b) the multiplicative damage boost when having PEN=2*AR is very powerful.

 

A solution would be just to dump that. Then there's no benefit to having more PEN than the AR.

 

 

On the flipside to that there'd be no reason to have armor at all if you didn't have enough. To have a penalty for going naked you have the system that causes extra damage when over penetrated. 

 

Estocs have more penetration but do a lot less damage than a Great Sword, having a damage adder for the extra penetration is good, but having it be the only multiplicative damage adder is not. Change that to an additive +50% like a crit and see how that works.

 

How is everyone doubling the AR so easily for these massive hits?

 

Critical hits add a large penetration bonus. A devoted can get 13 penetration with stilettos, then combine that with all the crit chances available to a rogue.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Fighters themselves can already get a 50% hit to crit conversion with the upgrade of Disciplined Barrage. If you combine that with a Berserker, Rogue or whatever adds more conversion you can crit a lot.

 

A Devoted with an exceptional weapon gets +5 PEN on top of the weapon's base PEN and the modal from proficiency.

 

Then you want to have a Chanter with Hel-Hyraf in the party. It causes -5 AR in a cone, is a fast cast and only costs 2 phrases which you automatically get at start of combat.

 

You also want a priest with Dire Blessing so that the Chanter can graze with Hel-Hyraf.

 

Then you can have one char with maces. They cause -1 AR on hit (not +1 PEN!). This all adds up pretty nicely (and breaks the game, too).

Edited by Boeroer

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

Link to post
Share on other sites

One valid build choice now is to simply take one high pen weapon and one high dps weapon on each character.

 

I think the real problems now are

 

1) penetration buff and debuff *powers* are overvalued

 

And

 

2) armor choice has become counter intuitive and Byzantine; for example, it's a valid choice to take off chain and scale when fighting high penetration enemies (because downgrading to leather is just as good for avoiding the 30% malus), and it's pointless for a wizard in padded armor to cast bulwark against the elements vs the sand blights (they have 9 pen, and padded has 3 AR vs. burn, +5 is 8).

Link to post
Share on other sites

New stuff from Josh on next beta

 

in the next #deadfire backer beta update, we are introducing -1, -2, and -3 stages for penetration/armor that reduce damage 25% for each point of difference, bottoming out at 25%. the data structure in globalgamesettings will allow modders to experiment with the settings.

 

DPLOr5RUMAAJvBe.jpg
 
experiment with and/or add additional stages/breakpoints
Edited by draego
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I need one feature from Infinity Engine games:

 

Each party member in Baldur's Gate was saying something like "my weapon is useless" when they coudn't hurt an enemy using a weapon with too low enchantement.

 

This could be very transparent in marking "no penetration" during fight. I know that it would require few extra voiced lines but it could help. Player would instantly recognise to whom the voice belongs and then instantly react and adjust to the situation.

Edited by Silvaren
  • Like 1

giphy.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

I need one feature from Infinity Engine games:

 

Each party member in Baldur's Gate was saying something like "my weapon is useless" when they coudn't hurt an enemy using a weapon with too low enchantement.

 

This could be very transparent in marking "no penetration" during fight. I know that it would require few extra voiced lines but it could help. Player would instantly recognise to whom the voice belongs and then instantly react and adjust to the situation.

Yes please!! I think Tyranny had this as well (?). So much easier than searching through the combat log to see who's doing dmg and who's not, an audio queue for each character would make it so much simpler and quicker.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I need one feature from Infinity Engine games:

 

Each party member in Baldur's Gate was saying something like "my weapon is useless" when they coudn't hurt an enemy using a weapon with too low enchantement.

 

This could be very transparent in marking "no penetration" during fight. I know that it would require few extra voiced lines but it could help. Player would instantly recognise to whom the voice belongs and then instantly react and adjust to the situation.

Yes please!! I think Tyranny had this as well (?). So much easier than searching through the combat log to see who's doing dmg and who's not, an audio queue for each character would make it so much simpler and quicker.

 

 

Isn't that in the game now?

 

My main is always saying "I need something sharper"

 

Plus there are a bunch of "no Pen" pop ups during combat.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, but no comparison to Verse’s “Damn thing couldn’t pierce cloth!” in Tyranny ;)

  • Like 1

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, they are already complaining when you can't penetrate. In addition to that there is TONS of "No Pen" messages popping out if the enemies' heads. How could one miss that?

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, honestly the "No Pen" messages get spammy and annoying, they're so frequent now.

 

 
More for my own satisfaction than anything else I went and made a little spreadsheet comparing the greatsword and the estoc under the new system vs. various AR's. 
 
 
I think the math is accurate under the new (upcoming) system, but I may have made some mistakes:
 
 
conclusion's pretty straightforward: low pen, high dps weapons will be best at the very high and low ends of the damage tree, and also will probably function better (slightly) even one point under target DR (because their inherent 30% damage bonus will exceed the 25% penalty). That's a little counterintuitive so you might want to playtest a 30%/20%/20% penalty instead of 25%/25%/25% .
Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Yeah, honestly the "No Pen" messages get spammy and annoying, they're so frequent now.

 

 
More for my own satisfaction than anything else I went and made a little spreadsheet comparing the greatsword and the estoc under the new system vs. various AR's. 
 
 
I think the math is accurate under the new (upcoming) system, but I may have made some mistakes:
 
 
conclusion's pretty straightforward: low pen, high dps weapons will be best at the very high and low ends of the damage tree, and also will probably function better (slightly) even one point under target DR (because their inherent 30% damage bonus will exceed the 25% penalty). That's a little counterintuitive so you might want to playtest a 30%/20%/20% penalty instead of 25%/25%/25% .

 

 

What happens if you add in damage bonuses like Might, Soul Whip and the like?

 

My worry is that the change to make it more granular and less punishing is that high penetration low damage weapons will be marginalized and it'll be back to damage is king just like in PoE.

 

Having a reason to not take Sabres and Great Swords would be nice besides self gimping.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

@KDubya

 

Their voices aren't distinct enough from each other for me. Probably because they are mercs. Shouts during combat seem random and missleading and "no pen" pop ups require scrolling combat log to be sure who and when failed to penetration.

Edited by Silvaren

giphy.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Silvaren - all VOs in the beta are temporary; IIRC, they mentioned they haven’t cast all actors yet so we can assume there will be more variety in the final product.

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at the current setup and alternative takes on it I think a mix of the current stepped dmg variation and gradual variation would be best. 

 

So for each Pen point above AR you'd get a 5% increase in DMG, with an additional 10% bump every 3rd point for a maximum dmg bonus of 150%. So 105%, 110%, 125%, 130%, 135%, 150%.

Ye, it takes the pros of both approaches (5% gradual, and semi-gradual with bumps), but at the expense of complexity. It might be hard to remember at what thresholds exactly these bumps are located.

 

New stuff from Josh on next beta

Sweet)

So everybody can play around with the thresholds, arrive to the right feel and share it.

We could even make a straw poll latter or something.

 

 

But if you suggest a system based on that ratio of pen to armor, I can very quickly give you a file you can test with. (Or you can try doing it yourself if you'd like! It's easy.)

 

Hey, 

do you think you could code a system like MaxQuest proposed in this thread? 

It would be nice to give it a try.

 

It doesn't look like it's possible atm. There are 3 thresholds, and I guess all are multiplicative only.

But it gonna be possible under the new system (which adds support for flat steps). I think it will look something like this:

wIlhG7f.png

 

 

Btw, am looking at Josh's values and imho it's already a solid improvement over the current state.

It's no longer all-or-nothing, but ye it's still more abrupt than the posted suggestions.

 

There is also a question: do we want to deal bonus damage to very high AR creatures, provided that our PEN is even higher? For reference: under the current system we would need 40 PEN vs 20 AR targets, in order to get the x1.3 multiplier.

Edited by MaxQuest
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

There is also a question: do we want to deal bonus damage to very high AR creatures, provided that our PEN is even higher? For reference: under the current system we would need 40 PEN vs 20 AR targets, in order to get the x1.3 multiplier.

 

 

No. If i want to do damage i'd be increasing my damage, not AP. Likewise if i want to increase attack speed i'm increasing attack speed, not acid resistance.

 

I want Armor Penetration to do what is in its name - penetrate armor. At best it will make armor do nothing and i'll be doing full (100%) damage. If there is no armor, penetration can't do anything, just like cold is useless vs cold immune enemies.

  • Like 2

Vancian =/= per rest.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Yeah, honestly the "No Pen" messages get spammy and annoying, they're so frequent now.

 

 

More for my own satisfaction than anything else I went and made a little spreadsheet comparing the greatsword and the estoc under the new system vs. various AR's.

 

Greatsword and Estoc stats: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1207831090

 

I think the math is accurate under the new (upcoming) system, but I may have made some mistakes:

 

https://i.imgur.com/pD5uCL4.jpg

 

conclusion's pretty straightforward: low pen, high dps weapons will be best at the very high and low ends of the damage tree, and also will probably function better (slightly) even one point under target DR (because their inherent 30% damage bonus will exceed the 25% penalty). That's a little counterintuitive so you might want to playtest a 30%/20%/20% penalty instead of 25%/25%/25% .

 

What happens if you add in damage bonuses like Might, Soul Whip and the like?

 

My worry is that the change to make it more granular and less punishing is that high penetration low damage weapons will be marginalized and it'll be back to damage is king just like in PoE.

 

Having a reason to not take Sabres and Great Swords would be nice besides self gimping.

Those *should* just multiply the effects. Since penetration modifier is a percentage, other damage modifiers should just all roll in and be increased or decreased the same way.i think.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Yeah, honestly the "No Pen" messages get spammy and annoying, they're so frequent now.

 

 
More for my own satisfaction than anything else I went and made a little spreadsheet comparing the greatsword and the estoc under the new system vs. various AR's. 
 
 
I think the math is accurate under the new (upcoming) system, but I may have made some mistakes:
 
 
conclusion's pretty straightforward: low pen, high dps weapons will be best at the very high and low ends of the damage tree, and also will probably function better (slightly) even one point under target DR (because their inherent 30% damage bonus will exceed the 25% penalty). That's a little counterintuitive so you might want to playtest a 30%/20%/20% penalty instead of 25%/25%/25% .

 

 

What happens if you add in damage bonuses like Might, Soul Whip and the like?

 

My worry is that the change to make it more granular and less punishing is that high penetration low damage weapons will be marginalized and it'll be back to damage is king just like in PoE.

 

Having a reason to not take Sabres and Great Swords would be nice besides self gimping.

 

am agreeing to a point, but keep in mind the high penetration weapons is doing significant more damage when overwhelming. there is a damage multiplier for overwhelming.  am not convinced a great sword is a no-brainer choice as posed to an estoc. actual, at the moment, we would likely continue to use stilettos, warhammers, war bows and estocs as 'posed to sabres and great swords.

 

will need wait and see how the changes playout in the new build, and am thinking the changes will much benefit casters, but am believing the previous all-or-nothing penetration mentality regarding weapons is gonna be replaced by a bell curve which leaves the majority o' weapon choices exact where they is now-- in the rubbish heap.  three kinda viable weapons: 1) accurate to maximize crit chance, 2) high penetration, 3) bonus damage.   other weapons will only have appeal based 'pon meta-knowledge. find a sooper powered flail o' stunning with a penetration modifier?  well then, our opinion 'bout flails will no doubt change. such reliance 'pon meta is another example o' bad design though.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

Link to post
Share on other sites

am agreeing to a point, but keep in mind the high penetration weapons is doing significant more damage when overwhelming. there is a damage multiplier for overwhelming.  am not convinced a great sword is a no-brainer choice as posed to an estoc. actual, at the moment, we would likely continue to use stilettos, warhammers, war bows and estocs as 'posed to sabres and great swords.

 

 

 

will need wait and see how the changes playout in the new build, and am thinking the changes will much benefit casters, but am believing the previous all-or-nothing penetration mentality regarding weapons is gonna be replaced by a bell curve which leaves the majority o' weapon choices exact where they is now-- in the rubbish heap.  three kinda viable weapons: 1) accurate to maximize crit chance, 2) high penetration, 3) bonus damage.   other weapons will only have appeal based 'pon meta-knowledge. find a sooper powered flail o' stunning with a penetration modifier?  well then, our opinion 'bout flails will no doubt change. such reliance 'pon meta is another example o' bad design though.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

By Overwhelming do you mean over-penetrating? The 30% bonus from "over penetrating" when your penetration is double opponent's armor rating should be accounted for in the chart -- that's why the Estoc does 14.3-20.8 damage vs. AR 0, 1, 2, 3, & 4, instead of the Estoc base damage of 11-16. Thing is that's not enough to catch up to the Great Sword's inherently higher base DPS against AR 3 & 4, and then against very low AR's  (0, 1, 2) they both overpenetrate and the Greatsword does 23.4 - 37.7 damage. 

 

The high penetration weapon (the Estoc) is still superior vs. anything with an armor rating between 7 and 11. It's also generally preferable because the downside risk is lower -- if your Greatsword can't penetrate enemy armor it drops down *dramatically*, but the Estoc still does an okay job against most everything.

 

The real weirdness is that the Greatsword is superior against AR 6, because even though it's suffering a 25% penetration penalty, that's still less than its base-dps advantage. So those numbers probably need some addtional tweaking. 

 

To really do this comparison right I'd have to go through and make chart for every weapon -- there are slight differences between warhammers and maces for example (both high pen but different) and low-pen, high-dps options like clubs. On the whole though it looks like right now the smart play is to take one high pen weapon and one high dps weapon (ideally with different damage types in case you run into an immune foe). 

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
Link to post
Share on other sites

No. If i want to do damage i'd be increasing my damage, not AP. Likewise if i want to increase attack speed i'm increasing attack speed, not acid resistance.

 

I want Armor Penetration to do what is in its name - penetrate armor. At best it will make armor do nothing and i'll be doing full (100%) damage. If there is no armor, penetration can't do anything, just like cold is useless vs cold immune enemies.

Interesting.

I am trying to figure out what would be the perfect PEN thresholds that would satisfy a set of conditions/expectations set by the forumers.

And your statement regarding "if there is no armor, penetration can't do anything" - kinda heavily affects the viability of high pen weapons.

 

I'd like to clarify:

- you expect two similar attacks against naked character, but one with quite higher PEN, deal same damage?

- (same thing rephrased) you are against dealing bonus damage with stuff like estocs and stilletos when your PEN is much higher than target's AR?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The high penetration weapon (the Estoc) is still superior vs. anything with an armor rating between 7 and 11. It's also generally preferable because the downside risk is lower -- if your Greatsword can't penetrate enemy armor it drops down *dramatically*, but the Estoc still does an okay job against most everything.

 

 

 

above quoted is the point.  can't look at weapons with blinders affixed. estoc is superior 'gainst high armour, and 'gainst low armour it is hardly doing paltry damage.  more significant, bosses will predictable have high armour. being able to mop up mobs a bit quicker with the great sword makes up for relative ineffectuality 'gainst high armour foes?  play long game and estoc wins as particular with overwhelming ap it is doing good consistent damage 'gainst low armour adversaries and will continue to be a far more viable option 'gainst the handful o' heavily armoured foes.

 

with the new announced scheme for weapon proficiencies, there will be a much greater motivation to choose a particular weapon with which to specialize. am not seeing such as a particular difficult decision making process.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Interesting.

I am trying to figure out what would be the perfect PEN thresholds that would satisfy a set of conditions/expectations set by the forumers.

And your statement regarding "if there is no armor, penetration can't do anything" - kinda heavily affects the viability of high pen weapons.

 

I'd like to clarify:

- you expect two similar attacks against naked character, but one with quite higher PEN, deal same damage?

- (same thing rephrased) you are against dealing bonus damage with stuff like estocs and stilletos when your PEN is much higher than target's AR?

 

I think I would agree with this too, if the target has no armor I don't see why PEN should do anything.

Link to post
Share on other sites
×
×
  • Create New...