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Adam Brennecke

Backer Beta First Impressions

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Today 2 Notes, my friends.

 

NEAR DEATH (For Hariwulf mention)

 

True, true, true. Seriously... 25 % of health = go heal urgently. Human passive, death godlike passive, all of this stuff is never use. Perhaps to interrest the deal at 33 %... or 50 %.

 

MY UNIVERSAL NERF SHIFTER

 

I thought back to my definition of the universal side and what bothered me about the shifter. For the universal side, the perfect definition is perhaps, "Do not scare the player with a loud penalty". That he has as much probability, that the player takes this class as the base class. So now, my proposition for universal shifter : p

 

Actual version

 

5 transformations

Massive heal (40 + level)

15 seconds

Penalty : Can't use spells when shaftshifting.

 

 

Possible version

 

2 transformations (An additional transformation only)

Heal 3/4 of the actual version (like 30 + level)

+15 % damage when shaftshifting.

20 seconds

Penalty : Can't use spells when shaftshifting.

 

-----

 

Staying on this penalty, it make sense. Only 2 transformation, 5 it's really too much with the heal... More time and damage, this is the master of this form. Concept of 'choice' among the 5 forms !^^ This becoming universal : it keeps the extra transformation side but couples with more builds. Why ? Because "essence" of spiritshifter (^^) is DPS (He cannot use spells, so he only can do a normal attack during transfo = specific specialisation...).

Edited by theBalthazar

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ROFL for shaftshifting. :lol: Best typo since Buttercut.

 

By the way my Assassin/Soulblade can do the annihilation attack all the time because the focus will not get drained. Anyone else experienced this?

  • Like 1

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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I too believe the pace of combat to be all right, as someone else pointed out.

 

The initial outpouring of complaints about combat's being too fast are mostly due to two factors, imo:

 

  • Most people's first taste of Deadfire combat was against lagufaeth, who are supposed to be comparatively faster enemies.
  • Deadfire brings many mechanical changes to the table to which we are not used. It is only natural to feel overwhelmed at the beginning and wish for a slower pace so we can take our time making decisions during combat.

I did not feel pacing was too fast against delemgans, wurms, blights, or xaurips. It was actually generally good, except recovery times were sometimes too slow.

 

The change to armor recovery time was too steep and perhaps uncalled for. The way AR vs AP work now, you are encouraged to wear the heaviest possible armor to curb your enemies' DPS, but that makes you very slow. You're still gonna win, except you get to stare at your men sitting idly through their recovery time for boringly long spans (especially if you're using a 2-hander.)

 

Bottom line in my opinion:

 

  • Current combat pacing is fine.
  • A slow mode in the vein of the first game should be implemented out of being in popular demand.
  • Recovery times could use being smaller. At least the penalty from wearing armor could be closer to the original game's.
  • AR and AP values should be rebalanced to avoid making lighter armors useless while you need a legendary sword to pierce through regular plate armor.

 

And of course the AR vs AP mechanic needs smoothing (i.e. it needs to be gradual when you're below your enemy's AR, and the bonus for being significantly above needs to be additive instead of multiplicative.)

 

 

One benefit to the new big penalties to recovery from armor is that the Fighter getting "Armored Grace" at -125% recovery becomes meaningful. 

 

If you want to move quick in plate be a Fighter, if not use lighter armor or get used to being slow.

 

In PoE everyone could wear plate if they wanted but most everyone went with the lightest they could as speed was king. Now with armor blocking 70% or nothing getting heavy armor has some real payoff for the investment. Going for the quickest and lightest lets you act faster but suffer from a multiplicative +30% damage adder. Not a no brainer decision.

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Fighter's Armored Grace doing -120% is a confirmed bug though. Should read 20% (and is meh then because recovery penalties of armor got doubled).

Edited by Boeroer

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Actually the -120% from Armored Grace has been confirmed a bug. I did mention though that 20% is too underwhelming given the penalties incurred when wearing heavy armor and the tier of the ability.

 

I can accept penalties to speed but there has to be a limit. The game is first and foremost meant to be fun and slow drags are the opposite of that.


"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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-20% for Armored Grace doesn't even make leather as fast as robes :(

 

-120% might be too good but it needs to be a lot more than -20%. 

 

I'd like there to be some tradeoffs between no/light armor and killing faster compared to heavier armor and killing slower. PoE failed at that at higher levels when damage vs DR made it so that faster was always better. DR15 in robes was better than DR25 in plate with the speed penalty and how damage was coming in at 50 per hit.

 

I thought that the -120% Armored Grace was a way to let fighters go heavy and be quick, sounded like a nice perk to make up for not being a Barbarian with Carnage.

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My first action would have been to give Armored Grace 40% since the armor penalties doubled as well. 

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Interesting how long will it take to fix all bugs in beta.

Hopefully there will be an update soon, fixing all mentioned issues, so we could find out more.

If that's just tiny bit of the game, one can imagine how many bugs there are...

I prefer to wait more than to have raw and unpolished game.


Done this with Moon Godlike Wizard

q22yrpP.png

Perebor steam

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Interesting how long will it take to fix all bugs in beta.

Hopefully there will be an update soon, fixing all mentioned issues, so we could find out more.

If that's just tiny bit of the game, one can imagine how many bugs there are...

I prefer to wait more than to have raw and unpolished game.

Given the state this early beta is in, and comparing to the PoE1 beta process up till release, I'd say mid April 2018 for Deadfire. I don't mind that at all. :)


*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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As I've played more I've changed my opinion slightly on the pace of combat.

 

It's true that it's not too as bad against enemies other than Lagufaeth, and hearing that the recovery for one-handers is a bug and will go to 3 seconds does actually sound slow to me. Furthermore, the cast times are truly nuts considering how likely spells are to fail and do literally nothing, I think those definitely have to be fixed especially since some of them take almost as long to cast as their actual effect time.

 

All that said, I still think the game needs a Slow Mode. I don't understand why the devs thought taking it out was a good idea at all.

 

Super, slow down the base combat speed so new players don't have to fiddle with Slow Mode, but then still give us a Slow Mode that reduces it by 25% percent rather than half, or whatever number makes sense.

 

Or give us a slider, honestly it's something I expected to see in PoE when they first introduced Slow Mode and I don't know why they never did that in the first place. In settings: "Slow Mode slows time by: 10% |-----------| 50%". I'm pretty sure that's what Freedom Force had, and it was a wonderful thing.

 

I for one far prefer playing these games quasi-turn-based in the sense that I get a lot of time to think and react as things are happening, and a slow mode makes that a thousand times more enjoyable and than pausing or especially auto-pausing all the damn time.

Edited by Answermancer
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I started to analyse deeply the game. My opinions and propositions for :

 

SINGLE CLASS, MULTICLASS, POWER SOURCES AND EMPOWER

 

25h on the beta. And I stay on what I think on Balacing on this subject. There is a problem with single class. I'm not going to talk about passive abilities here (ex general talents in POE1). I already talked about it.

 

More than that, I will tell you that the single class has nothing for it. I propose a modification (this will be more explicit than a long text)

 

ACTUAL SYSTEM AT LEVEL 6

 

- 1 Empower per encounter.

- 2 Empower per rest.

 

- 1 aditionnal level with empower.

 

- 4/3 power source for multiclass.

- 5 power source for single class.

 

POSSIBLE SYSTEM AT LEVEL 6

 

- 2 Empower per encounter. WHY ? There is complain about limit of this big kick (for retrieve the feeling of spells per rest of POE1. There was 4 spells per rest by level of power...remember it...)

- 3 Empower per rest. WHY ? Numerically, I think there is not enough. 2 fights : No more empower. And with 2 empower by encounter, it is more logical.

 

- 1 additionnal level with empower FOR MULTICLASS. (no change)

- 2 additonnal level with empower FOR SINGLE CLASS. WHY ? You are the specialist (More deadly with mono-core of power). You rule the game, less choice, but more powerful ! In my opinion, it is more logical to balancing !^^

 

- 4/3 power source for multiclass. (no change)

- 7 power source for single class. WHY ? With 5 you are at 1 POINT of the 2 power sources of the multiclass ! WTF^^ ?

 

-----

 

No need to nerf here (Source power is limited, even in multiclass...), but drastically increase Single class like this. That would be cool, I think.

4+3 = 7 for multiclass VS 7 for single class. KNOWING THAT, multiclass still has the advantage of the variety. So, it is not too much...

Edited by theBalthazar
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I finished my first playthrough last night. Some points I did not address in my previous post:

 

+ Scripted interactions look even better than before, and I like the way they've been integrated with the world map.

+ Spell retargeting is neat, and I think with some modifications to the penetration system (so that spells are more likely to do *something*), slower cast times will be interesting.

+ The character models and animation really do look terrific.

I love the watercolor portraits.

+ Subclassing is fun.

 

- The level-up screen needs to indicate how many points you have to spend on talents.

- Combat speed is too fast for me.

- Certain auto-pause conditions seem glitchy at the moment. For example, "pause at end of long cast" triggered for my rogue's crippling strike and my howler's invocations, which may have some boot-up time, but they're hardly in the same category as wizard spells.

- I continue to dislike the skill/reputation icons. They're not obvious (multiple icons involve a human head, a dove could just as easily be diplomacy as benevolent, etc.), and the extra second of thought is an unnecessary annoyance.

- The mechanics tooltip still suggests it plays a role in spotting traps, but my understanding is that finding traps is a Perception-linked ability now.

- Armor Penetration is not much fun at the moment. The combination of high thresholds and severe penalties means that combat comes down to lowering enemies' AR and raising your PEN. The result is that weapons/skill choices aren't especially interesting unless you're already sure you can penetrate. I understand people have suggested softening the penalties by scaling the damage reduced for every point of PEN < AR. I worry that would result in a lot of muddy calculations in each encounter (by each enemy type), made significantly worse by the damage reduction using percentages rather than integers. I personally would need tables for active weapons sets showing "average damage against AR-n."

 

An alternative would be to lower the AR thresholds / raise default penetration so that, on average, a character in a level-appropriate encounter with reasonable equipment would be able to penetrate with at least one of his/her weapons, before applying buffs/debuffs. You would still switch weapon sets as needed and buff/debuff for particularly tanky foes (or to overpenetrate for bonus damage), but more often you could skate by with your default setup. Penetration would remain both clear (because no sliding scale) and important (because the penalty is severe). It just wouldn't be the primary consideration in most encounters. But perhaps I am missing the purpose of the penetration mechanic or some knock-on effects of weakening it.

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OTHERS FREE IDEAS TO IMPROVE SINGLE CLASS

 

* An additionnal unic talent at the creation, single class specific.

 

* Improved empower for single class (see previous post)

 

* More power level (see previous post)

 

I have the true feeling nobody will take single class. Yes, we have not seen the level 16-20 Spells (I can't totally judge). But it is endgame, provided that these powers make a real difference (not certain... In POE1, very few were helpful on my side...)

Edited by theBalthazar

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OTHERS FREE IDEAS TO IMPROVE SINGLE CLASS

 

* An additionnal unic talent at the creation, single class specific.

 

* Improved empower for single class (see previous post)

 

* More power level (see previous post)

 

I have the true feeling nobody will take single class. Yes, we have not seen the level 16-20 Spells (I can totally judge). But it is endgame, provided that these powers make a real difference (not certain... In POE1, very few were helpful on my side...)

 

 

I think the problem with power level is there are a lot of things it doesn't really affect at all, sneak attack for example, there's really not much downside to multi classing to get sneak attack because you get it at full power no matter what your rogue power level is.

 

I guess it's possible death blows could be one of the aforementioned 16-20 abilities though.

Edited by Climhazzard
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I think the problem with power level is there are a lot of things it doesn't really affect at all, sneak attack for example, there's really not much downside to multi classing to get sneak attack because you get it at full power no matter what your rogue power level is.

 

Questions :^^

 

1) does not the problem also come from the number of variables fonction to kind of spells/abilities ?

 

If there is Penetration / Accuracy / Number / Damage (All buffed by empower like minor missiles of minolettas ?)

VS sometimes only :

Duration

 

So, empower is an ode to offensive powers ?

 

-------------

 

2) Why not increase the effect of base talent for single class ? Like additionnal 50 % for sneak attacks (and more generally duration / damage of base concept) ?

 

In our case of sneak attack. 50 % (multiclass) - 75 % (single class)

Edited by theBalthazar

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Obs said they're targeting for a global speed not to need (at least the slow) speed level, which is good imo - I don't like toggling speeds. I guess they're gonna gradually reduce (mostly combat) speed each time they introduce a new beta build until everyone (or most, at least) are happy with the current speed.

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Toggles are win-win. Those who dislike a toggle setting will leave the other option be, it's that simple. So, combat speed toggle FTW!

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Toggles are win-win. Those who dislike a toggle setting will leave the other option be, it's that simple. So, combat speed toggle FTW!

I'm with you even if I don't like toggling if that makes any sense :p

 

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Managed to get the beta to run on Linux, which may or may not explain the below. It felt a bit dark, so maybe that's due to Linux too.

 

A lot of changes have been done right. However, as mentioned by everybody and their neighbhour, cast times are ludicrous. I don't yet have a good feel for the penetration thing, as the game crashed at some point during the first combat I was in (tree-lady). The UI and tooltips and whatnot could use some work, but this is alpha state, so it's to be expected. More details, how much damage, etc etc. Prevent jiggly popups, barks barely showing up before closing, and so on.

 

What actually concerns me the most is the prospect of loooooooong load times again. I hope it's a "running it in Linux when it's not made for it yet" issue, but already from the get-go it took a good 4-5 seconds to transfer between areas / buildings.

 

MUCH faster loading and area transfer times was my #1 wish for POE2. If I can still make a cup of tea between area transfers, it's going to get old real fast :(

 

 

Had a look through some assets too, and there is some nice stuff in there ;) Lots of left-overs too, or images not updated yet, but that will come.

Edited by PangaeaACDC

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Game is in some areas a big stepup from the first one.

I like the new setting, character animations, dual-classing and a lot of dialog checks.

They seem amazing so far.

 

Big con is combat. I find it's chaotic and way too fast. Combat in Pillars 1 was better managable in my opinion.

This needs some serious work.

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