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Political Twelve Monkeys


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#501
Zoraptor

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Might as as well argue against any form of VAT. I mean my income was already taxed, why am I paying taxes again?
 


Like USA where such thing doesn't exist?

 

You're right, it's not a VAT, they call it "sales tax" and leave it to their individual states to determine which goods and services are taxable and which aren't. Shockingly, most states do have a wide assortment of taxes that we generally subsume under VAT in Europe.

 

But sure, whatever. Let's keep splitting hairs.

 

 

Sharpie can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but the fundamental point is a valid one. VAT/ GST/ sales tax is a tax on income that has already been taxed once. I'm not a fan of estate tax or 'stamp duty' or other taxes against spending that has already been taxed once; but for example a reasonable Capital Gains Tax is a good idea since it taxes added value. The really fundamental problem is that the rich, especially the really rich, almost always have access to loopholes anyway so stuff targeting them seldom works as they can use Trusts, Companies, Partnerships, tax havens, or combine them all into a Double Irish variant; and the average Joe can't.

 

Things like VAT are also a deeply regressive tax if applied to staple items like food rather than just luxuries since if you do that it disproportionately targets poor people- who have to spend money on food, accommodation, clothes- rather than those with discretionary spending who can choose when and where to spend most of their income. Even if you exclude food and have luxury tiers/ brackets they're almost always inconsistent and still gameable by the rich; here you just bung as much discretionary expenditure into a 'business' (which desperately needs a new 8700k dual 1080 Ti system, so I can work at home!) and then claim the GST back, plus you can write off depreciation for your shiny new 100k Tesla against any income and any net loss against your personal income. It's a lot more difficult to game straight income tax or a CGT.



#502
ShadySands

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Estate taxes vs. inheritance taxes
Estate taxes and inheritance taxes are two different things. Estate taxes are paid out of the deceased’s estate, and inheritance taxes come out of the beneficiary’s pocket. One, both or neither could be a factor when someone dies.
 
ESTATE TAXES
 
An estate tax is a tax on the right to transfer property when you die. The IRS exempts estates of less than $5.49 million from the tax, so few people actually end up paying. Plus, that exemption is per person, so a married couple could double it, for an exemption of $10.98 million.
 

 

The IRS taxes estates above that threshold at rates of up to 40%. 

more here



#503
Gfted1

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That's exactly the point I was making. Every cent you have was already taxed, why are there states that have a sales tax? Isn't that double taxation? Why is that okay while an inheritance tax isn't?


Because "sales tax" (in the US) is based on the value of a newly acquired product, not on income. Here in Illinois some products have higher sales taxes than others. For example, food and medicine are taxed significantly lower than "non-essential" products. And they REALLY bend you over on "sin taxes" such as booze and smokes.

#504
ShadySands

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Because "sales tax" (in the US) is based on the value of a newly acquired product, not on income. Here in Illinois some products have higher sales taxes than others. For example, food and medicine are taxed significantly lower than "non-essential" products. And they REALLY bend you over on "sin taxes" such as booze and smokes.

Reminds me that at my last job all the Chicago smokers got their cigs from Indiana



#505
213374U

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You don't need diabetes medicine, because millions live without it. You don't need house, because there are millions homeless, you don't need etc. 
All comes to: you don't need because you are more successful than me and It turns me out of jealousy.


Wow. I just found this pearl.

You do realize that diabetes is among the top ten causes of death globally, right? So yeah, you really need "diabetes medicine" if you are diabetic.

The skill with which you defeat your own points is... uncanny.



#506
majestic

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Sharpie can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but the fundamental point is a valid one. VAT/ GST/ sales tax is a tax on income that has already been taxed once. I'm not a fan of estate tax or 'stamp duty' or other taxes against spending that has already been taxed once; but for example a reasonable Capital Gains Tax is a good idea since it taxes added value. The really fundamental problem is that the rich, especially the really rich, almost always have access to loopholes anyway so stuff targeting them seldom works as they can use Trusts, Companies, Partnerships, tax havens, or combine them all into a Double Irish variant; and the average Joe can't.

Things like VAT are also a deeply regressive tax if applied to staple items like food rather than just luxuries since if you do that it disproportionately targets poor people- who have to spend money on food, accommodation, clothes- rather than those with discretionary spending who can choose when and where to spend most of their income. Even if you exclude food and have luxury tiers/ brackets they're almost always inconsistent and still gameable by the rich; here you just bung as much discretionary expenditure into a 'business' (which desperately needs a new 8700k dual 1080 Ti system, so I can work at home!) and then claim the GST back, plus you can write off depreciation for your shiny new 100k Tesla against any income and any net loss against your personal income. It's a lot more difficult to game straight income tax or a CGT.

 

I don't disagree per se. Under the current system most Western nations employ an inheritance tax isn't hurting the common rabble like Sharpe wants to pretend, nor would it be an unfair double taxation like Gfted1 claimed. At least when compared to other unfair taxes (whether taxes are unfair assuming one gets decent value out of them is a matter for an entirely different debate).

 

I'm all for shifting the tax load away from income towards capital gains and a minute tax on financial transactions. In the near future more and more jobs are going to be automated, in addition to all the outsourcing that already happened. Combined with a lot of people working for less than the minimum taxable income means that the middle class carries more and more of the taxload.

 

We collectively need to change that at some point.

 

 

That's exactly the point I was making. Every cent you have was already taxed, why are there states that have a sales tax? Isn't that double taxation? Why is that okay while an inheritance tax isn't?


Because "sales tax" (in the US) is based on the value of a newly acquired product, not on income. Here in Illinois some products have higher sales taxes than others. For example, food and medicine are taxed significantly lower than "non-essential" products. And they REALLY bend you over on "sin taxes" such as booze and smokes.

 

Ah, I get it. You're right, of course. I was just stating that you have to pay sales tax out of the income you already had taxed. Much like you would pay inheritance tax out of an estate that was already taxed in the past.


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#507
majestic

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You don't need diabetes medicine, because millions live without it. You don't need house, because there are millions homeless, you don't need etc. 
All comes to: you don't need because you are more successful than me and It turns me out of jealousy.


Wow. I just found this pearl.

You do realize that diabetes is among the top ten causes of death globally, right? So yeah, you really need "diabetes medicine" if you are diabetic.

The skill with which you defeat your own points is... uncanny.

 

I'm pretty sure that point is valid in Sharpe's paradise where milk and honey flow and a family home and a car easily exceeds a million dollars in worth. And yeah, count me jealous of that place. I want to be there too. ;)

 

 

 

 

Because "sales tax" (in the US) is based on the value of a newly acquired product, not on income. Here in Illinois some products have higher sales taxes than others. For example, food and medicine are taxed significantly lower than "non-essential" products. And they REALLY bend you over on "sin taxes" such as booze and smokes.

Reminds me that at my last job all the Chicago smokers got their cigs from Indiana

 

Oh, nice. Try that in the EU, you'll be fined to kingdome come and back. And then some. Heh.


Edited by majestic, Today, 02:11 PM.


#508
Gfted1

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Reminds me that at my last job all the Chicago smokers got their cigs from Indiana


Lol, yeah, I think Wisconsin is the same. At least its a good place to go for illegal fireworks.  :ninja:  But just getting outside of Cook county is a big savings.



#509
Zoraptor

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I'm all for shifting the tax load away from income towards capital gains and a minute tax on financial transactions.

 

Yeah, I'd like a transaction tax as well to be honest. It technically goes against my principles on not taxing already taxed income, but there's been a whole new exploitation area with high turnover automated trades and the like which need some way of being discouraged and don't really do anything for the economy except manipulate it, sometimes dangerously so- and generally speaking the less money you have the less you'd be effected by it as well.



#510
Gfted1

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...nor would it be an unfair double taxation like Gfted1 claimed. At least when compared to other unfair taxes (whether taxes are unfair assuming one gets decent value out of them is a matter for an entirely different debate).


Why I consider it double taxation is; lets say a relative has a pile of loot sitting in a bank account and they die. First of all, they already paid the initial income tax. Then they paid taxes on any interest these monies have accrued over time (which is rightfully considered "new income"). Now they pass this on to their child, and for no other reason other than passage of ownership, the monies are taxed again? Just because? Mind I'm referring to cash money. Physical goods, such as inheriting a house and then selling it, should be taxed as new income, I suppose.

#511
HoonDing

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i'll show you taxation

 

i6qO5xG.jpg



#512
majestic

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...nor would it be an unfair double taxation like Gfted1 claimed. At least when compared to other unfair taxes (whether taxes are unfair assuming one gets decent value out of them is a matter for an entirely different debate).


Why I consider it double taxation is; lets say a relative has a pile of loot sitting in a bank account and they die. First of all, they already paid the initial income tax. Then they paid taxes on any interest these monies have accrued over time (which is rightfully considered "new income"). Now they pass this on to their child, and for no other reason other than passage of ownership, the monies are taxed again? Just because? Mind I'm referring to cash money. Physical goods, such as inheriting a house and then selling it, should be taxed as new income, I suppose.

 

Let me give you an example from the ondoing debate here.

 

The current situation is that there is no direct inheritance tax here. However, when you're growing old and infirm and for some reason need care (e.g. like my father's aunt who needed 24 hour care for the last few years of her life) the cost is paid out of your pension and if that doesn't cover the cost, which is very likely, your estate.

 

Which means in order to pay for your care the nursing home is legally allowed to tap into your life savings, your house, your car, well, let's make it short: literally everything you own. In other words if you're infirm and in a nursing home for more than a year and a half it's very likely that the actual estate tax you'll be paying is 100%. Everything's gone. Bye bye. That actually amounts to real theft because it hits those with little to inherit. The more money you have the less indirect estate tax you pay.

 

The proposed solution a 25% inheritance tax after a million per inheritor, so if there's a three million inheritance for three people none of them would pay taxes. In exchange the state (or rather the state owned insurance companies) would use the money gained to pay for all nursing costs.

 

The idea was shot down something fierce. Mostly because the government wants to tap into poor grandma's savings. It still does, even harder than the inheritance tax would have - for 95% of us. Granted not everyone becomes old and infirm in a way that requires nursing, but the amount of money funneled into the econonmy by allowing families with little income to a) actually inherit something and b) afford nursing would have easily outdone the taxation.

 

But nah, we'll just wait until that money trickles down. As if that ever worked. ;)



#513
Malcador

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i'll show you taxation

 

i6qO5xG.jpg

 

That's socialism for you.



#514
injurai

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How apropos that I come across this:

 

OliGIrc.jpg

 

https://www.reddit.c...year_in_the_us/

Source & Citations in the comments.


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