Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Please no more Barbarian with Int


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#41
Ascaloth

Ascaloth

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 34 posts
  • Steam:falcontakehiro

I like to think of Intellect for martial classes as the practical application of the "I studied the blade" meme.

 

For example, any dumb Fighter can learn how to Knock Down an enemy flat on his arse. The high-Intellect Fighter on the other hand, instinctively groks centre of gravity to the extent that he knows how to hit the enemy just right to leave the latter winded for as long as possible.

 

Similarly, any dumb Barbarian knows how to flail around his weapon and smack a few blokes all at once. But the high-Intellect Barbarian has the brainpower to figure out in a split second, just how to hack with his weapon - the exact angle, the exact amount of momentum - such that it hits as many enemies as possible.

 

As such, I don't mind high-INT Barbarians that much. 


  • dukeisaac, Baltic and Wormerine like this

#42
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7412 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

preaching to the choir. have already addressed this point multiple times. you don't seem to realize how you is agreeing with Gromnir 'bout the problem.

I'm completely aware that we agree on the mechanics. I also added that the problem with Carnage is that you get it automatically (class defining). I don't try to oppose tou, I'm just trying to point out some details that might be of interest to the readers of this thread.

I don't have a problem with the intelligent barb. The points you make are true. It just doesn't bother me that much because I don't care a lot about immersion or meeting fantasy tropes or fulfilling expectations or making every class playable in a lot of different ways (as long as the class itself if fun to play even if it is a one-trick pony). But I get the point. My solution, as I said above, would be to remove all automatic abilities. That way you'd have more freedom for char development and you're not stuck with a barb who has to invest in INT just to make Carnage better.

Edited by Boeroer, 23 October 2017 - 04:16 AM.

  • illathid and draego like this

#43
Goddard

Goddard

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 71 posts
  • Steam:goddard007

No dumb Ranger Barbarian that talks to Rodents? 



#44
Lephys

Lephys

    Punsmith of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 7167 posts
  • Location:The Punforge
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

the problem ain't intelligent barbarians.  the problem is carnage. there weren't s'posed to be class defining abilities in poe.  nevertheless, carnage is indeed a class defining ability, and the best way to squeeze the most juice outta of carnage is to boost intelligence. the problem is barbarians being defined by carnage.

 

But Gromnir...! The attribute system has rendered dump stats (and by default, pump stats) extinct! o_o. That was the whole point in going with the stat functions we have now. The cons of "this is all weird stuff to be attributed to these character measurements" was all worth the absence of any go-to or undesirable stats! For sooth!!!!! *faints*

 

 

What the hell are you people on about. I made a barbarian with base INT of 7 and slaughtered my way through the game.

 

So your rebuttal to "Here's a flaw in the design of attributes as they relate to class mechanics" is really "No, see guys? The effect of stats on your character basically don't matter at all! 8D!"

 

???

 

Oh, well nevermind then. Obviously it's an optimally-designed system. We stand corrected.

 

 

I like to think of Intellect for martial classes as the practical application of the "I studied the blade" meme.

 

For example, any dumb Fighter can learn how to Knock Down an enemy flat on his arse. The high-Intellect Fighter on the other hand, instinctively groks centre of gravity to the extent that he knows how to hit the enemy just right to leave the latter winded for as long as possible.

 

This is, indeed, a lovely thought. If only Intellect worked that way. Instead, any additional effectiveness that would stem from smarts and result in higher damage is all bundled into Might, which should really just be named "Damage." Which is yet another facet of how the stats are too all-encompassing. Intellect is reduced to making circles bigger. So it can never do more interesting things like increase the number of jumps chain lightning makes because your character knows how to channel it most efficiently (no increase in actual POWER, just an increase in intelligent usage), or allow for more/higher-damage critical hits because a Fighter knows where to hit someone, etc.

 

The vast majority of the posters here seem to be hellbent on pretending that isn't the case, and/or celebrating the lack of interest in trying to design this in a better way, and/or condemning anyone who tries to constructively illustrate flaws in the system as some kind of crazy fanatic who's nitpicking about stuff that doesn't affect the game at all.

What the hell are you people on about. I made a barbarian with base INT of 7 and slaughtered my way through the game.

 

So your rebuttal to "Here's a flaw in the design of attributes as they relate to class mechanics" is really "No, see guys? The effect of stats on your character basically don't matter at all! 8D!"

 

???

 

Oh, well nevermind then. Obviously it's an optimally-designed system. We stand corrected.


  • Blades of Vanatar likes this

#45
teknoman2

teknoman2

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1360 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

 

I don't even understand where the "stupid barbarian" originated. Conan the Barbarian spoke (and read, and wrote) like, a dozen languages and often translated ancient runes etc as well as being a master tactician in the Howard books.

Well, the term barbarian implies the human being in question is uncivilized or primitive, and was how the Greeks designated people of non-Greek culture (who they largely saw as inferior, culturally at least). It doesn't necessarily mean barbarians are stupid but it sort of came to existence as a derogatory term that implied them being all of this.

 

in ancient greece it was more of a lingustic term than something to do with culture. barbarian (or varvaros as is pronounced in greek) literally means "he who's speech is made of var" with "var" being a sort of slang for incoherent/unstructured speech.

most languages are build on the mutual agreement that "something" should be called "something" but greek was different; the words were in and of themselves both a description of that "something" and a mathematical representation of it. considering how much thought they would put into every word they created for everything around them, they considered languages that were based on simply agreeing that "this sound should represent this something" inferior.


  • Lephys and Wormerine like this

#46
DexGames

DexGames

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 123 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I don't understand,

If you don't play one, what does it fondamentaly change for you that they exist ?

To the point where you have to ask OBS to remove something from the game lol.


  • kierun, Sedrefilos and draego like this

#47
Gromnir

Gromnir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7134 posts
  • Location:Sleeping in my office.
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I don't understand,

If you don't play one, what does it fondamentaly change for you that they exist ?

To the point where you have to ask OBS to remove something from the game lol.

am not certain who you are replying to, but we personal noted how we played and enjoyed our barbarian.  however, our enjoyment o' our barbarian character(s) does not blind us to the flaws.  we sure as heck didn't ask for obsidian to exorcise the barbarian from deadfire.  heck, we don't even want genius barbarians to become implausible in deadfire.  

 

have noted multiple times how the problem, as we see it, is carnage.  barbarian's carnage is a class defining ability which is heavily dependent on might and intellect, and intellect has curious value thresholds which make it far more likely for a knowledgeable player to choose to play their barbarian as a genius.  is particular unfortunate as a player new to poe, and even many veteran players, will be unaware o' the intellect thresholds.  put 16 into intellect? what a waste. 

 

am not asking for the barbarian to be removed or even for genius barbarians to be hamstrung.  nevertheless we see how carnage, as a class defining ability, tends to diminish the functional customization potential of the barbarian. the carnage problem is glaring and irrefutable, but nevertheless we got players defending the flaw and developers using the "genius barbarian" as an example o' poe's customization flexibility. from our pov is a bizarro universe issue. doesn't make sense.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!



#48
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7412 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
I'm not defending the flaw, I'm just showing how/why you can play a barb who didn't go to university.

The points you make are true.

If I'm not misinterpreting it: seems that Carnage might not be an automatic ability in Deadfire any more. Because subclasses' features don't alter Carnage but rather Frenzy (look at the Berserker)...?

Edited by Boeroer, 26 October 2017 - 09:14 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users