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Please no more Barbarian with Int


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#21
Gromnir

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 But it's not that much of a gimpage to play a barb with mediocre INT.

 

 

sure it is gimpage.  also, to make the parallel to ad&d more excruciating,  there is indeed thresholds of use for inflating intelligence. with an 18 intelligence, you is gonna be hitting with carnage approx. three-deep v. human-sized opponents. (aside: is made more effective when using a reach weapon as the aoe is centered on the target and not the barbarian.)  just as it didn't much matter if your ad&d fighter strength were 'tween 8 and 15, there is indeed significant leaps in carnage efficacy at particular intelligence levels... which makes the situation worse and not better.  every 1 point o' intelligence boost for a barbarian is not giving you equal payoff which is hardly in keeping with what were intended for poe characters.  again, 'cause carnage is so integral, one need look specific at how intelligence affects carnage to determine how intelligence most benefits a barbarian.

 

is all wrong.

 

is bass ackwards.

 

is anachronistic.

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#22
dragubaba

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What the hell are you people on about. I made a barbarian with base INT of 7 and slaughtered my way through the game. The few outlying mobs I missed because of lower INT were compensated with higher damage on those I did hit. Is this one of those things that somebody comes up with and others pick up creating an echo chamber of feigned outrage just because why not.

 

1gzj0MV.jpg


Edited by dragubaba, 21 October 2017 - 10:34 PM.

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#23
Benefit

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What the hell are you people on about. I made a barbarian with base INT of 7 and slaughtered my way through the game. The few outlying mobs I missed because of lower INT were compensated with higher damage on those I did hit. Is this one of those things that somebody comes up with and others pick up creating an echo chamber of feigned outrage just because why not.

 

 

I'm not looking at this from a powerplay perspective I'm looking at this from an roleplay perspective.
If the stat for carnage would be called wisdom I would not have a problem with it.
Its the fact that If you want to go "all out" on carnage and make a full carnage barbarian you would have to make him an intellectual.
A barbarian that spend his whole life training his skills with a sword while the mage was studying books during his should not be equally smart.

Some people see attributes and they see damage numbers BUT others like me see tools in them to create a character from their imagination
that's where an intellectual Barbarian becomes a problem.

I played WHFRP 2e a few days ago and I thought to myself I want to make a slayer like character!
A full carnage based barbarian would be a great fit... almost perfect BUT I don't want him to be an intellectual BUT I do want to increase the range of his carnage.
If carnage range would be a Skill instead of an Attribute that would fit better or an attribute called wisdom instead of intellect.
It would be okay if he would be capable to survive in the wild because of his wisdom but he should not outsmart a wizard or beat him in a game of chess.
 

I love PoE its a great game with a great Battlesystem It makes it hard for me to go back to BG1+2, IWD1+2 and so on BUT its because of how great it works for battles.
When it comes to roleplay and imagination it also does the job pretty well, kudos to the designers but it falls a little bit apart when you get to the intellectual barbarian...



#24
Katarack21

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What the hell are you people on about. I made a barbarian with base INT of 7 and slaughtered my way through the game. The few outlying mobs I missed because of lower INT were compensated with higher damage on those I did hit. Is this one of those things that somebody comes up with and others pick up creating an echo chamber of feigned outrage just because why not.

The argument seems to be "that's not the best that you could possibly do, so it's gimped trash".



#25
takamorisan

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Please don't throw min/maxing and viability in the same sack. Yes a barb with more int will have a bigger aoe and technically shine more in battle but it doesn't mean that you can't complete the game with a full might barb.



#26
wih

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The root problem is that the game treats battle abilities like spells. Carnage is the worst example, but fighter's knockdown is not much better. Treating them like spells automatically ties them to Intellect and from that all the weirdness ensues.

 

These things are not and should not be spells, simple as that.



#27
JerekKruger

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Personally I have no problem with smart Barbarians, but I agree that the benefit Intellect brings the Barbarian makes it feel like a requirement rather than an option. Of course, as Boeroer and dragubaba say, you can build a perfectly viable* Barbarian with lower Intellect but I can understand why it might feel like you're hurting your build by doing so.

 

*Not just viable, good.



#28
Katarack21

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The root problem is that the game treats battle abilities like spells. Carnage is the worst example, but fighter's knockdown is not much better. Treating them like spells automatically ties them to Intellect and from that all the weirdness ensues.

 

These things are not and should not be spells, simple as that.

That's by *design*. It integrates with the lore and setting; the abilities in question and spells all use the same power source, ie soul power. Carnage isn't just a representation of tactics or something; it's actually the character having been trained in how to use their soul-power to enlarge and extend the damage of the weapon swing, just as you can knock down 10 foot tall trolls because fighters use their soul-power for a moment of superstrength to do it.

Fireball, knockdown, carnage, lay on hands--it's all soul-power being applied in different ways. In a sense, they *are* spells.


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#29
wih

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The root problem is that the game treats battle abilities like spells. Carnage is the worst example, but fighter's knockdown is not much better. Treating them like spells automatically ties them to Intellect and from that all the weirdness ensues.

 

These things are not and should not be spells, simple as that.

That's by *design*. It integrates with the lore and setting; the abilities in question and spells all use the same power source, ie soul power. Carnage isn't just a representation of tactics or something; it's actually the character having been trained in how to use their soul-power to enlarge and extend the damage of the weapon swing, just as you can knock down 10 foot tall trolls because fighters use their soul-power for a moment of superstrength to do it.

Fireball, knockdown, carnage, lay on hands--it's all soul-power being applied in different ways. In a sense, they *are* spells.

 

Ok. So this is the solution. Rename Intellect to Soul Power.



#30
MortyTheGobbo

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Or... it could stay as Intellect and any offence over the subject will remain as self-inflicted as it has always been.

 

I guess Pillars could use different attribute names, since it's moving away from their traditional definitions... but I doubt that would stop the complaining.


Edited by MortyTheGobbo, 22 October 2017 - 03:57 AM.

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#31
Katarack21

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Soul Power has a stat; it's called "Might". Might reflects raw strength both physical and soul; thus damage. Intellect reflects knowledge of and skill with use of that power; thus AoE, etc. They actually all work quite well.


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#32
wih

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I guess Pillars could use different attribute names, since it's moving away from their traditional definitions... but I doubt that would stop the complaining.

Would be enough if it lessens confusion.

 

Soul Power has a stat; it's called "Might". Might reflects raw strength both physical and soul; thus damage. Intellect reflects knowledge of and skill with use of that power; thus AoE, etc. They actually all work quite well.

But knowledge and skill are typically things that one acquires through experience? Should this be a primary stat then?

 

Anyway, it seems to me that what you say is closer to how things actually work in the game. I would be much less confused if Might was actually called Soul Power and Intellect... maybe Soul Power Channeling?



#33
Sedrefilos

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Have we bit on the troll bait?


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#34
Katarack21

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I guess Pillars could use different attribute names, since it's moving away from their traditional definitions... but I doubt that would stop the complaining.

Would be enough if it lessens confusion.

 

Soul Power has a stat; it's called "Might". Might reflects raw strength both physical and soul; thus damage. Intellect reflects knowledge of and skill with use of that power; thus AoE, etc. They actually all work quite well.

But knowledge and skill are typically things that one acquires through experience? Should this be a primary stat then?

 

Anyway, it seems to me that what you say is closer to how things actually work in the game. I would be much less confused if Might was actually called Soul Power and Intellect... maybe Soul Power Channeling?

 

Might is *specifically* confusing because in PoE 1 it reflects both raw physical strength *and* the power of ones soul. That's the source of a lot of confusion; people think a high-might wizard *must* be buff as hell, for example, when really which one is being reflected in the stat--physical power or soul power--is expressed through context. For a Fighter, probably physical with some soul; for a wizard, the other way around; for a paladin probably both equally.


Edited by Katarack21, 22 October 2017 - 05:30 AM.


#35
Sedrefilos

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Conversations with might had to do with "bullying" and scripted interactions with psysical strength, so I believe might in Pillars is strength eventually. Now why someone finds it weird to have your spells powered by your might is beyond me. If magic power in Pillars comes from within it sounds very reasonable that your might makes them stronger. In other games (DnD for instance) it has to do with reading and learning etc it's a differnet approach.


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#36
Blades of Vanatar

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Random thought... what if INT attribute would mean Intensity?
- increases the duration of CC spells
- reduces the duration of DoT spells that deal fixed damage, making the same amount being applied faster; while DoT's with no fixed damage just linger for longer and thus deal more damage
- a more intense storm usually covers a wider area, so there: increased AoE
- if a beneficial spell was casted with higher intensity - it's effect will linger for longer - hence +% duration.

So a barbarian with high INT would just mean that he makes a more intense use of his ability to slash several enemies in one swing.

On a similar note DEX could be renamed to Quickness - as this is what it actually does.
And PER to Finesse - as being more exact allows you to easier hitting the vital spot. Additionally goes well with fast weapons needing to crit more often then slow harder-hitting ones, in order to overcome DR. And there is no problem with Quickness and Finesse influencing Reflex either.


But those stats also affect in game choices. Finesse for some of the Perception dialogue choices? It wouldn't fit.

I'd like it if they added a seventh Stat. Something along the lines of luck or karma. Or Finesse for ACC bonus and have Perception cover the dialogue, interrupt, etc...

#37
Gromnir

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What the hell are you people on about. I made a barbarian with base INT of 7 and slaughtered my way through the game. The few outlying mobs I missed because of lower INT were compensated with higher damage on those I did hit. Is this one of those things that somebody comes up with and others pick up creating an echo chamber of feigned outrage just because why not.

 

(image)

 

anecdotal is never particular persuasive.  is kinda traditional hereabouts to use singular examples and individual past experience as some kinda proof. 

 

 

is the math which reveals how intelligence at particular levels o' investment dramatic increase carnage efficacy.  even boeroer notes "sweet spots" for intelligence investment.  1.5 m radius from the target is the base carnage aoe radius.  intelligence and other equipment may expand (or reduce) the radius.  a 7 intelligence, unmodified, results in a minus 18% to the base aoe radius. sure, with certain high level equipment and in unique encounters wherein smaller-than-human sized adversaries seem to functional stack, a meager intellect will provided impressive carnage results, but is no way to ignore the math.  1.5m.  

 

but yeah, we wouldn't doubt there is somebody who completed a triple-crown solo run with a basement intellect barbarian wielding noting but an unenhanced butter knife and wearing durance's robes.  

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#38
Katarack21

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What the hell are you people on about. I made a barbarian with base INT of 7 and slaughtered my way through the game. The few outlying mobs I missed because of lower INT were compensated with higher damage on those I did hit. Is this one of those things that somebody comes up with and others pick up creating an echo chamber of feigned outrage just because why not.

 

(image)

 

anecdotal is never particular persuasive.  is kinda traditional hereabouts to use singular examples and individual past experience as some kinda proof. 

 

 

is the math which reveals how intelligence at particular levels o' investment dramatic increase carnage efficacy.  even boeroer notes "sweet spots" for intelligence investment.  1.5 m radius from the target is the base carnage aoe radius.  intelligence and other equipment may expand (or reduce) the radius.  a 7 intelligence, unmodified, results in a minus 18% to the base aoe radius. sure, with certain high level equipment and in unique encounters wherein smaller-than-human sized adversaries seem to functional stack, a meager intellect will provided impressive carnage results, but is no way to ignore the math.  1.5m.  

 

but yeah, we wouldn't doubt there is somebody who completed a triple-crown solo run with a basement intellect barbarian wielding noting but an unenhanced butter knife and wearing durance's robes.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Again, it's the difference between "optimal" and "viable". A 7 int is *viable*--almost any stat arrangement is, actually.


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#39
Boeroer

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You can say all that (threshold, low INT gimps) about every AoE ability in the game. In certain situations it doesn't matter if your INT is 10 or 15: you will scratch the circles of some enemies and damage them the same way as if your AoE covers their circles in whole.

The only thing with the barb is that Carnage is an integral part because you get it automatically. You can't omit it. And this has to be balanced out in some way so the class is not too strong. So you get less ACC and low deflection and all that. If you want to play a ranged barb there will always be the feeling that you wasted the best thing of the barb. I think most people have the same feeling when lowering INT with Carnage. They think "if I already have an auto AoE attack that grows in size with INT I should put a lot of points into it or else it's a waste."

And it's true that Carnage gets better with a lot of INT. But again: it may be that it doesn't matter a lot of times if you have 10 or 15 INT because it's enough to just barely scratch enemies, you don't have to cover them completely with your AoE. And it needs a LOT of additional INT to reach the next line. So, either make a barb with a LOT of INT or leave it a mediocre levels. It's of not much use to put 1 or two points more INT if you can't reach the next row of enemies with it.

It would have been better to give the barb another automatic ability than Carnage. It should be an optional pick at lvl-up. That way you could have played a dumb barb (maybe even ranged) without the feeling that you're throwing away your best tool.

I would have preferred that there are no fixed, automatic abilities for any class.

Edited by Boeroer, 22 October 2017 - 09:14 PM.

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#40
Gromnir

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What the hell are you people on about. I made a barbarian with base INT of 7 and slaughtered my way through the game. The few outlying mobs I missed because of lower INT were compensated with higher damage on those I did hit. Is this one of those things that somebody comes up with and others pick up creating an echo chamber of feigned outrage just because why not.

 

(image)

 

anecdotal is never particular persuasive.  is kinda traditional hereabouts to use singular examples and individual past experience as some kinda proof. 

 

 

is the math which reveals how intelligence at particular levels o' investment dramatic increase carnage efficacy.  even boeroer notes "sweet spots" for intelligence investment.  1.5 m radius from the target is the base carnage aoe radius.  intelligence and other equipment may expand (or reduce) the radius.  a 7 intelligence, unmodified, results in a minus 18% to the base aoe radius. sure, with certain high level equipment and in unique encounters wherein smaller-than-human sized adversaries seem to functional stack, a meager intellect will provided impressive carnage results, but is no way to ignore the math.  1.5m.  

 

but yeah, we wouldn't doubt there is somebody who completed a triple-crown solo run with a basement intellect barbarian wielding noting but an unenhanced butter knife and wearing durance's robes.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Again, it's the difference between "optimal" and "viable". A 7 int is *viable*--almost any stat arrangement is, actually.

 

kinda missing the point. you can play a viable and gimped barbarian, particular as this is a game wherein you play a party o' characters.  have one relative underpowered character (even if only underpowered compared to alternative barbarian builds) in a party-based game is always viable. no biggie.  

 

am also one o' the most consistent voices on these boards speaking 'bout how poe is less attribute driven than most crpgs.

 

https://forums.obsid...zard/?p=1782213

https://forums.obsid...ilds/?p=1778990

https://forums.obsid...arty/?p=1709701

https://forums.obsid...iest/?p=1656958

 

etc.

 

however, the barbarian has certain intellect thresholds (anachronistic) 'cause of carnage.  reaching higher thresholds produce a clear superior barbarian, which is exact why we got so many players with genius barbarians in poe. the barbarian only shines when facing mobs, which is already an inherent limitation.  not all poe encounters (even pod encounters) result in mob combat.  as such it makes sense to maximize a barbarian's efficacy 'gainst those mobs.  unfortunately, one cannot use typical poe approach to viability o' stats for the barbarian precise 'cause o' carnage. one point of intellect increase is not equivalent to one point o' increase o' other attributes... excepting might, and worse, every point o' intellect increase is not equal to every other point o' intellect increase.  

 

the viability argument is swell and all but it is ignoring reality.  josh has noted how balance is always important in a single player crpg.  not need have all builds or classes (or whatever) be equal in power.  however, if one build or class (or whatever) is disproportionate superior, then the viability argument collapses 'cause on average, most folks will not self-gimp to play the viable but demonstrably underpowered build. 

 

the intelligent barbarian problem stems from the obvious design flaw which some folks seem to wanna refuse to ignore:  carnage is a class defining ability.  'cause barbarian efficacy is inextricable linked to a single ability, and the ability in question is an instantaneous aoe effect, intelligence will be disproportionate important and will exhibit thresholds. the ubiquitous intelligent barbarian is precisely why the poe developers wanted to avoid class defining abilities.

 

"You can say all that (threshold, low INT gimps) about every AoE ability in the game."

 

*chuckle*

 

such an observation is true... but barbarian is a class with a singular defining aoe ability.  

 

"And it needs a LOT of additional INT to reach the next line. So, either make a barb with a LOT of INT or leave it a mediocre levels. It's of not much use to put 1 or two points more INT if you can't reach the next row of enemies with it."

 

preaching to the choir.  have already addressed this point multiple times. you don't seem to realize how you is agreeing with Gromnir 'bout the problem.  

 

folks enjoy playing their barbarian characters, so is gonna be a tendency to defend.  is ok to like the barbarian.  we had fun playing our poe barbarians.  however, to like our barbarian doesn't mean we need ignore the problems or flaws.  carnage is a class defining ability.  once folks make such an admission, the problem which is tending to lead to genius barbarians becomes clear and indefensible. 

 

HA! Good Fun!


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