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Games so good it costs human misery to make them.

cd projekt red video game industry working conditions discussion crunch

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#41
Darkpriest

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In what world are you living? I can safely say that majority of companies have cool and nice policies, but they get ignored when it comes to things, like deadlines and making the budget...

 

Shareholders don't care as long as it's not illegal and money keeps flowing.

 

It's not unique to gaming industry... it's just the entertainment industry attracts more "snowflakes", because they think with their hearts instead of minds when thinking about their job choices.

 

There are some cool companies, that are loaded with money and they can afford some luxury for their employees. lets say "google", but those are exceptions. If you can find a company, which is co=managed by an owner with vision and this company is doing great financially - there you might get some comfy conditions, but companies, which are listed public companies, or got multiple parties interested in the profit, then the HR policies can affect only the general attitude of managers to employees, like they won;t be calling you ****, and take other mobbing and discrimination actions.

 

Everything has its cost, why do you think I was telling you for some years on this forum, that CD Projekt can do to their customers what they do? They get comparatively cheap labor and cost side, while they can price you at the same premium price as other game producers.

 

Their success, if can manage with this brief PR blunder, will lead other game producers to look to places like Eastern Europe, where there is plenty of cheap talent, that can do the same if not better job than people in High cost countries at 1/4 to 1/8 of the cost. (depending on complexity of task and required skillset)


Edited by Darkpriest, 21 October 2017 - 11:25 PM.


#42
EbonyBetty

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Sorry, it took so long for me to respond to my own damn thread, but I've read everyone's response and it's quite compelling. For me, I tend to listen to the people at the bottom of the pyramid as opposed to the top. I don't think CDPR is the worst of the video game companies (I've been reading a lot about Rockstar *shudder*) and I'll def. check out "Blood, Sweat, and Pixels"  @HooAmEye.

 

As a person looking from the outside in, I feel CDPR is starting to buy into its own hype, they feel like they're no longer the "little guy" and can stand shoulder to shoulder with the Heavy Hitters now, certainly, its fandom hyping them up doesn't help. But like the old proverb goes: Those who are rewarded much, have much to be expected. So I feel CDPR have backed themselves into a corner. Everybody and their mama has given CDPR awards for Witcher 3, game developers are claiming they're taking notes from Witcher 3 in terms of quests or say they want CDPR's RPG "crown." That's a lot of pressure and stress. CDPR might be getting a little too big for its britches, I've read some of the Glassdoor reviews, on both sides and it's unanimous that the management there can be an "organized and inspiring circus" on the positive side and "complete lawless ****-show" on the negative side.  It seems order can be something they lack at times. However, some might argue that's what gives video game developing its charm? Some have argued yes and no (I'm somewhere in the healthy middle). This kind of "Wild West cowboy" experimental freedom has been in the game industry since the beginning. There's a really interesting article about the early days of Atari and its downfall with E.T. along with  accounts from former employees on Cracked  Really nice read. I still think this mindset is very much embedded within the industry and unfortunately has a very high probability of being a menace to the worker bees at the bottom of the totem pole. Despite how far video games have come they're very much a new industry (probably leaving its childhood years and entering teenagehood) and is evolving a lot faster within a shorter timespan than say the Movie Industry. To keep the Wild West analogy going the video game industry is a Gold Rush with lots of gold in them hills, but at the expense of a lot of exploitive labor and with out-of-touch/boy's club rich white guys being the last ones standing when all is said and done. 

 

TL;DR: I don't think people's suffering should be profitable if the end result gives them no gratification, however that is oil that makes the gears of Capitalism turn. However private companies have the freedom to be more accommodating to their workers ex. Ben n' Jerry's, Zappos, even Obsidian (they have really nice benefits and every Friday the company treats its employees to a movie to see the latest film). With  CDPR being known for treating their customers with respect, I think most of us assumed they treated their employees the same way too and ultimately kind of left us with a shock.


Edited by EbonyBetty, 25 October 2017 - 02:25 AM.


#43
TrueNeutral

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Hey, at least they're not visual effects companies.



#44
Malcador

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Or fintech companies.

#45
Sharp_one

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Those kids are looking at your arguments...

 

INDIA_(F)_1006_-_Lavoro_minorile.jpg



#46
Malcador

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Those kids are looking at your arguments...

INDIA_(F)_1006_-_Lavoro_minorile.jpg


Nope. Doubt they have Internet access.
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#47
Hurlshot

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Ah, the old starving people in Africa argument. :wowey:

Edited by Hurlshot, 25 October 2017 - 10:31 AM.

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#48
Gorgon

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I think it's pretty straightforward, if you expect employees to work extra for long periods with no overtime you give them a piece of the action, stock options, a share in the profits. Otherwise you are exploiting them. Doesn't matter if they are picking up nickel in a scrapheap or making games. 


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#49
Flouride

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CDPR isn't even among the worst. Check out the stories from Rockstar and Japanese development. The book "Blood, Sweat, and Pixels" has some fascinating accounts on the issue. The industry has a massive problem with handling this, expecting so many many to place their entire lives into the job. And even this ****show is not as bad as the situation in silicon valley.

 

Yup, everyone interested in how games are being made should read the book. Crunching is a wide spread problem in the industry unfortunately


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#50
Sharp_one

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Ah, the old starving people in Africa argument. :wowey:


It's clearly India.

#51
HooAmEye

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We did it guys!

 

https://www.nytimes....mes-crunch.html


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#52
Hurlshot

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Ah, the old starving people in Africa argument. :wowey:


It's clearly India.

 

 

Hmm, my parents never really talked about the starving kids in India when I wouldn't eat my vegetables for dinner, so I don't believe you.

 

 

http://tvtropes.org/...ToWorseProblems


Edited by Hurlshot, 26 October 2017 - 05:12 AM.


#53
Orogun01

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CDPR isn't even among the worst. Check out the stories from Rockstar and Japanese development. The book "Blood, Sweat, and Pixels" has some fascinating accounts on the issue. The industry has a massive problem with handling this, expecting so many many to place their entire lives into the job. And even this ****show is not as bad as the situation in silicon valley.

 

Yup, everyone interested in how games are being made should read the book. Crunching is a wide spread problem in the industry unfortunately

 

Crunching isn't the issue; poorly managed projects due to upper management ****ing up and having the workers fixing up their mistakes so they can write themselves a big fat bonus, is the problem.
I firmly believe in letting things break and become the worst, that seems the only way to get upper management to get with project.



#54
Darkpriest

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CDPR isn't even among the worst. Check out the stories from Rockstar and Japanese development. The book "Blood, Sweat, and Pixels" has some fascinating accounts on the issue. The industry has a massive problem with handling this, expecting so many many to place their entire lives into the job. And even this ****show is not as bad as the situation in silicon valley.

 

Yup, everyone interested in how games are being made should read the book. Crunching is a wide spread problem in the industry unfortunately

 

Crunching isn't the issue; poorly managed projects due to upper management ****ing up and having the workers fixing up their mistakes so they can write themselves a big fat bonus, is the problem.
I firmly believe in letting things break and become the worst, that seems the only way to get upper management to get with project.

 

 

Yeah, they want that big fat bonus, because they worked their way up there for years of various sacrifices and hard work - now someone puts a certain financial goal for them so they can get paid a good amount of money and keep their job, that someone is perhaps a friend of yours who has ownership on the stock market or funds allocated in investment fund, that is working for his retirement plan. They want a certain level of return from the invested money and that means they will pressure management of companies in which they hold cash, to push towards better returns.

 

I can count on a single hand companies that decided to come up with explanations that they will be running lower return in short term, for better gains in the long term... Longe term does not exist in a volatile market - so things get pushed on the board to have certain levels of growth and profitability, that gets pushed on middle management, who have to cope with various expense cuts and reallocation of work force and that pressure in the end gets pushed back to the line employee doing the daily job for the company projects.

 

 

We as customers want higher return on our financial investments, want prices to stay stable and quality to increase, but at the same time we put the pressure on higher salaries.

 

That gets improved by either automation of some jobs (some people lose jobs), relocation of the jobs to cheaper locations (another batch of people loses their jobs), or by squeezing the project time - then we are unhappy as it takes away from our personal time.

 

Of course these are not the only effects, but the most visible ones.



#55
Malcador

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CDPR isn't even among the worst. Check out the stories from Rockstar and Japanese development. The book "Blood, Sweat, and Pixels" has some fascinating accounts on the issue. The industry has a massive problem with handling this, expecting so many many to place their entire lives into the job. And even this ****show is not as bad as the situation in silicon valley.


Yup, everyone interested in how games are being made should read the book. Crunching is a wide spread problem in the industry unfortunately
Crunching isn't the issue; poorly managed projects due to upper management ****ing up and having the workers fixing up their mistakes so they can write themselves a big fat bonus, is the problem.
I firmly believe in letting things break and become the worst, that seems the only way to get upper management to get with project.

Well crunch is the problem, but management is the cause (for the most part, probably are some cases when it can be other areas). Project management sure isn't easy, have to deal with a lot of politics some of the time which causes screw ups. My current company has that issue in spades.

#56
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Eh, Upper Management of one company can't fix the industry. Don't get me wrong, they're douchebags, but at this point if you don't crunch you can't keep up. I've worked on projects where the deadline crunch started before the contract was even signed. It's also become a bit of a cultural problem. This industry attracts young, passionate creatives who WILL crunch to get their projects done and if you don't comply with them, you are a traitor.



#57
Volourn

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"African American MALES only making up 9% of the industry"

 

I know this isn'ty an Ameirkan company... but what % do you think AA MALES make up in the US or this country's population?  AA totally make up approximately 13% of the US population for example so I am going to hazard a guess that AA males more than have their share of representation. Other minorities likely not so much...



#58
Orogun01

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CDPR isn't even among the worst. Check out the stories from Rockstar and Japanese development. The book "Blood, Sweat, and Pixels" has some fascinating accounts on the issue. The industry has a massive problem with handling this, expecting so many many to place their entire lives into the job. And even this ****show is not as bad as the situation in silicon valley.

 

Yup, everyone interested in how games are being made should read the book. Crunching is a wide spread problem in the industry unfortunately

 

Crunching isn't the issue; poorly managed projects due to upper management ****ing up and having the workers fixing up their mistakes so they can write themselves a big fat bonus, is the problem.
I firmly believe in letting things break and become the worst, that seems the only way to get upper management to get with project.

 

 

Yeah, they want that big fat bonus, because they worked their way up there for years of various sacrifices and hard work - now someone puts a certain financial goal for them so they can get paid a good amount of money and keep their job, that someone is perhaps a friend of yours who has ownership on the stock market or funds allocated in investment fund, that is working for his retirement plan. They want a certain level of return from the invested money and that means they will pressure management of companies in which they hold cash, to push towards better returns.

 

I can count on a single hand companies that decided to come up with explanations that they will be running lower return in short term, for better gains in the long term... Longe term does not exist in a volatile market - so things get pushed on the board to have certain levels of growth and profitability, that gets pushed on middle management, who have to cope with various expense cuts and reallocation of work force and that pressure in the end gets pushed back to the line employee doing the daily job for the company projects.

 

 

We as customers want higher return on our financial investments, want prices to stay stable and quality to increase, but at the same time we put the pressure on higher salaries.

 

That gets improved by either automation of some jobs (some people lose jobs), relocation of the jobs to cheaper locations (another batch of people loses their jobs), or by squeezing the project time - then we are unhappy as it takes away from our personal time.

 

Of course these are not the only effects, but the most visible ones.

 

"Hard work"

People don't get ahead because of hard work they get ahead because of "hard work" that gets noticed by the bosses and they buffing up their resume. I could get in my current company a meaningless title that sounds impressive and get a better job at another one, without knowing **** all about what I'm doing and if I butter up to management enough they will see it right to keep me and I can pass along the blame. That's how you get ahead, the business world is a meritocracy only if the merit is brownnosing.



#59
HooAmEye

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"African American MALES only making up 9% of the industry"

 

I know this isn'ty an Ameirkan company... but what % do you think AA MALES make up in the US or this country's population?  AA totally make up approximately 13% of the US population for example so I am going to hazard a guess that AA males more than have their share of representation. Other minorities likely not so much...

 

What are you responding to?



#60
Orogun01

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CDPR isn't even among the worst. Check out the stories from Rockstar and Japanese development. The book "Blood, Sweat, and Pixels" has some fascinating accounts on the issue. The industry has a massive problem with handling this, expecting so many many to place their entire lives into the job. And even this ****show is not as bad as the situation in silicon valley.


Yup, everyone interested in how games are being made should read the book. Crunching is a wide spread problem in the industry unfortunately
Crunching isn't the issue; poorly managed projects due to upper management ****ing up and having the workers fixing up their mistakes so they can write themselves a big fat bonus, is the problem.
I firmly believe in letting things break and become the worst, that seems the only way to get upper management to get with project.

Well crunch is the problem, but management is the cause (for the most part, probably are some cases when it can be other areas). Project management sure isn't easy, have to deal with a lot of politics some of the time which causes screw ups. My current company has that issue in spades.

 

I should clear up, I consider project managers below upper management. I'm talking CFO, CEO, COO and those directly below them; I'm a position to know that PMs have it way too hard. 







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