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Tbh I never really understood why destroying her soul is considered some kind of rebellion agaisnt the tyrannical gods. It's a rebellion against the natural order of things, if anything. She says it herself that the Wheel existed well before the gods, it's not their creation, so not being a cog in the Wheel system =/= giving the gods middle finger. It's not even their system. Her soul being erased from existence is way more convinient for them (at least for those of them who are worried about the kith finding out their secret). 

There's no way for Iovara out of Breith Eaman that doesn't involve her becoming a servant to one of the gods. Regardless of how much she knows about the god's secrets, she could only act on that knowledge to whatever degree her patron god would allow. So for her, it's either an eternity of imprisonment, or an eternity of servitude to a god she knows to be fabricated. Destroying her soul is the only way to grant her true peace. At least that's how I understood it.

Edited by Villentretenmerth
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Tbh I never really understood why destroying her soul is considered some kind of rebellion agaisnt the tyrannical gods. It's a rebellion against the natural order of things, if anything. She says it herself that the Wheel existed well before the gods, it's not their creation, so not being a cog in the Wheel system =/= giving the gods middle finger. It's not even their system. Her soul being erased from existence is way more convinient for them (at least for those of them who are worried about the kith finding out their secret). 

There's no way for Iovara out of Breith Eaman that doesn't involve her becoming a servant to one of the gods. Regardless of how much she knows about the god's secrets, she could only act on that knowledge to whatever degree her patron god would allow. So for her, it's either an eternity of imprisonment, or an eternity of servitude to a god she knows to be fabricated. Destroying her soul is the only way to grant her true peace. At least that's how I understood it.

 

Um, patron god? Afaik, nobody forces people to worship the gods on Eora. Their presence is undeniable and people know they're out there, but Eora is not one of the AD&D worlds where you either believe in some god or go the Wall of the Faithless to get punished. If they released Iovara's soul to the wheel then she simply would have been reborn through the wheel system and forgot about her past self - that's what she was against. She seemed to believe that the wheel system was in gods hands and didn't want to be a part of it.

Edited by Aramintai
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The only thing that definitely changed in the wheel system with the creation of the gods are the godlike, but they could be some sort of involuntary byproduct (a glitch?) of gods insertion into the system.

Which is something I'm really curious about. If the godlike are a direct creation of the gods or a byproduct of their existence, it means they didn't even exist until about two thousand years ago. Then, around the time the Engwythan missionaries bring the news about the "true" gods to the heathens, boom. People start giving birth to creepy looking babies of all kinds. There ought to be some theological texts about that in Eora, some sort of explanation, perhaps made up by the Engwythans, or at least some speculation as to why they began to appear when they did. Sure, two thousand years is a long time, but it is a very unusual phenomenon, I doubt the people of Eora could have forgotten that the godlike hadn't always been around. 

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Tbh I never really understood why destroying her soul is considered some kind of rebellion agaisnt the tyrannical gods. It's a rebellion against the natural order of things, if anything. She says it herself that the Wheel existed well before the gods, it's not their creation, so not being a cog in the Wheel system =/= giving the gods middle finger. It's not even their system. Her soul being erased from existence is way more convinient for them (at least for those of them who are worried about the kith finding out their secret). 

There's no way for Iovara out of Breith Eaman that doesn't involve her becoming a servant to one of the gods. Regardless of how much she knows about the god's secrets, she could only act on that knowledge to whatever degree her patron god would allow. So for her, it's either an eternity of imprisonment, or an eternity of servitude to a god she knows to be fabricated. Destroying her soul is the only way to grant her true peace. At least that's how I understood it.

 

Um, patron god? Afaik, nobody forces people to worship the gods on Eora. Their presence is undeniable and people know they're out there, but Eora is not one of the AD&D worlds where you either believe in some god or go the Wall of the Faithless to get punished. If they released Iovara's soul to the wheel then she simply would have been reborn through the wheel system and forgot about her past self - that's what she was against. She seemed to believe that the wheel system was in gods hands and didn't want to be a part of it.

 

You made me think I was going crazy for a while, but luckily I make a hard save every couple minutes for exactly this kind of situation :grin: here's a screenshot directly from the game that made me think Iovara could only leave as a servant.

20180315201727_1_zpswvrqqfbg.jpg

Also, apologies for the size. Don't know how to make an expandable section :/

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You made me think I was going crazy for a while, but luckily I make a hard save every couple minutes for exactly this kind of situation :grin: here's a screenshot directly from the game that made me think Iovara could only leave as a servant.

Ah, I see, it's the usual "bow down to me and beg for forgiveness" kind of thing. Becoming one of those spirit things floating around the Burial island doesn't sound very interesting, just another stupid thing to do. Doubtful she'd ever go for it, but gods are patient there. And I'm not sure the gods can make an obedient servant out of somebody who pledges against their will. Maybe something like "serve, or back to the prison with you"? 

 

Anyway, I still don't get why it's evil to release her into the wheel, sounds stupid from all angles. For someone who sat imprisoned for such a long time I think Iovara didn't think her situation through enough.

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The only thing that definitely changed in the wheel system with the creation of the gods are the godlike, but they could be some sort of involuntary byproduct (a glitch?) of gods insertion into the system.

Which is something I'm really curious about. If the godlike are a direct creation of the gods or a byproduct of their existence, it means they didn't even exist until about two thousand years ago. Then, around the time the Engwythan missionaries bring the news about the "true" gods to the heathens, boom. People start giving birth to creepy looking babies of all kinds. There ought to be some theological texts about that in Eora, some sort of explanation, perhaps made up by the Engwythans, or at least some speculation as to why they began to appear when they did. Sure, two thousand years is a long time, but it is a very unusual phenomenon, I doubt the people of Eora could have forgotten that the godlike hadn't always been around. 

 

Well, you can forget a lot of things in such a time span. Especially if there is an organization (the Leaden Key) that works towards helping people forget. It seems that nobody cares or remembers when the current gods first appeared on Eora (just like in our ancient history - gods came and went, beliefs changed), or whether there were other gods before them. But since their appearance, the godlike that started to spawn most likely were deemed as a just another real proof of gods existence. When literal visual manifestations of gods are walking around it just makes the job of converting people that much easier, no? But still, the question remains - are godlike a deliberate product of gods manipulation with the souls or involuntary byproduct of gods creation? I saw somewhere J.Sawyer replying that godlike theme will be explored more in POE2. Maybe Pallegina will finally get some answers.

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There's no way for Iovara out of Breith Eaman that doesn't involve her becoming a servant to one of the gods. 

She couldn't leave the island herself, true, but someone could go down there and talk to her. Which is exactly what happened in the end. And since we descended into the pit with the help of the gods themselves (surely they remembered that Iovara was still down there and able to talk?) they probably weren't all that worried about her potentially spreading the truth. At least not as much as they were about Woedica gaining power. Her punishment looks more like Thaos' personal vendetta to me, the gods really don't seem to care much. And I doubt they would care about her soul getting destroyed either. 

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There's no way for Iovara out of Breith Eaman that doesn't involve her becoming a servant to one of the gods. 

She couldn't leave the island herself, true, but someone could go down there and talk to her. Which is exactly what happened in the end. And since we descended into the pit with the help of the gods themselves (surely they remembered that Iovara was still down there and able to talk?) they probably weren't all that worried about her potentially spreading the truth. At least not as much as they were about Woedica gaining power. Her punishment looks more like Thaos' personal vendetta to me, the gods really don't seem to care much. And I doubt they would care about her soul getting destroyed either. 

To me it looked like that Burial island was Woedica's domain. Perhaps other gods didn't even know Iovara was imprisoned there. But more likely they were indeed more worried about Woedica's imminent restoration, so they lent the Watcher their help going there. Makes me wonder, if Woedica was deposed a long time ago why wait so long to restore her? Not enough people living in the vicinity of the machines?

 

Also, I think it's obvious there is no consensus among the gods about anything and they're not infallible. Some gods want to eradicate other gods, other gods want all the power to themselves. Some gods wanted to erase all trace of Engwithans who knew their secrets from the face of Eora, while others were against it. And while they squabble and plot, reluctant/unable to act directly against each other, such mishaps as Iovara's info leak happen.

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Anyway, I still don't get why it's evil to release her into the wheel, sounds stupid from all angles. For someone who sat imprisoned for such a long time I think Iovara didn't think her situation through enough.

 

Think of it like this: You firmly believe in a cause. You devote all of your life to it, fight for it with all your might. Even at your final hour, when your bones are being shattered at the wheel, you'd stay true to your ideals and spit in the face of those who would dampen them, rather than end your pain with but a single moment of hypocrisy.

And then somebody just barges right into your prison and is like "hey, did it occur to you that if you do this one thing that completely opposes everything you ever believed in and fought for your entire life, you can be sort of free?" ...yeah. That's Iovara's perspective the way I see it.

 

Also, she begs you not to do it. Doing it anyway seems evil enough to me.

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Anyway, I still don't get why it's evil to release her into the wheel, sounds stupid from all angles. For someone who sat imprisoned for such a long time I think Iovara didn't think her situation through enough.

 

Think of it like this: You firmly believe in a cause. You devote all of your life to it, fight for it with all your might. Even at your final hour, when your bones are being shattered at the wheel, you'd stay true to your ideals and spit in the face of those who would dampen them, rather than end your pain with but a single moment of hypocrisy.

And then somebody just barges right into your prison and is like "hey, did it occur to you that if you do this one thing that completely opposes everything you ever believed in and fought for your entire life, you can be sort of free?" ...yeah. That's Iovara's perspective the way I see it.

 

Also, she begs you not to do it. Doing it anyway seems evil enough to me.

 

That's all understandable, but still stupid. She could've had another chance to fight by going through the wheel if she Awakened later. But being against it she just looked like she admitted defeat, like she just wanted to stay a powerless sore in the eye of the gods. It's a shame there is no option like that to convince her to continue the fight, to promise to find and Awaken her later.

Edited by Aramintai
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Anyway, I still don't get why it's evil to release her into the wheel, sounds stupid from all angles. For someone who sat imprisoned for such a long time I think Iovara didn't think her situation through enough.

 

Think of it like this: You firmly believe in a cause. You devote all of your life to it, fight for it with all your might. Even at your final hour, when your bones are being shattered at the wheel, you'd stay true to your ideals and spit in the face of those who would dampen them, rather than end your pain with but a single moment of hypocrisy.

And then somebody just barges right into your prison and is like "hey, did it occur to you that if you do this one thing that completely opposes everything you ever believed in and fought for your entire life, you can be sort of free?" ...yeah. That's Iovara's perspective the way I see it.

 

Also, she begs you not to do it. Doing it anyway seems evil enough to me.

 

That's all understandable, but still stupid. She could've had another chance to fight by going through the wheel if she Awakened later. But being against it she just looked like she admitted defeat, like she just wanted to stay a powerless sore in the eye of the gods. It's a shame there is no option like that to convince her to continue the fight, to promise to find and Awaken her later.

 

True, that would actually be a pretty cool ending for her. Perhaps she just lost the will to fight, after being a prisoner for so long. Or she simply saw a life without her memories as meaningless.

Or maybe the writers thought it would be too good a solution. The way things are now, every choice you can make regarding Iovara is kind of bittersweet.

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Tbh I never really understood why destroying her soul is considered some kind of rebellion agaisnt the tyrannical gods. It's a rebellion against the natural order of things, if anything. She says it herself that the Wheel existed well before the gods, it's not their creation, so not being a cog in the Wheel system =/= giving the gods middle finger. It's not even their system. Her soul being erased from existence is way more convinient for them (at least for those of them who are worried about the kith finding out their secret). 

There's no way for Iovara out of Breith Eaman that doesn't involve her becoming a servant to one of the gods. Regardless of how much she knows about the god's secrets, she could only act on that knowledge to whatever degree her patron god would allow. So for her, it's either an eternity of imprisonment, or an eternity of servitude to a god she knows to be fabricated. Destroying her soul is the only way to grant her true peace. At least that's how I understood it.

 

Um, patron god? Afaik, nobody forces people to worship the gods on Eora. Their presence is undeniable and people know they're out there, but Eora is not one of the AD&D worlds where you either believe in some god or go the Wall of the Faithless to get punished. If they released Iovara's soul to the wheel then she simply would have been reborn through the wheel system and forgot about her past self - that's what she was against. She seemed to believe that the wheel system was in gods hands and didn't want to be a part of it.

 

You made me think I was going crazy for a while, but luckily I make a hard save every couple minutes for exactly this kind of situation :grin: here's a screenshot directly from the game that made me think Iovara could only leave as a servant.

20180315201727_1_zpswvrqqfbg.jpg

Also, apologies for the size. Don't know how to make an expandable section :/

 

She is talking about getting free by accepting forgiveness from the gods, which is not the returning her to the wheel option others are talking about. You have the choice to forcibly free her from the prison without getting forgiveness from the gods (which also does not free them from the island anyway and so cannot return them to the wheel, as she actually states in the screenshot) and send her off to the wheel. So she can leave due to the Watcher without pledging to any of the gods, yet for some reason she is opposed to it because she will forget the tooth.

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There's no way for Iovara out of Breith Eaman that doesn't involve her becoming a servant to one of the gods. 

She couldn't leave the island herself, true, but someone could go down there and talk to her. Which is exactly what happened in the end. And since we descended into the pit with the help of the gods themselves (surely they remembered that Iovara was still down there and able to talk?) they probably weren't all that worried about her potentially spreading the truth. At least not as much as they were about Woedica gaining power. Her punishment looks more like Thaos' personal vendetta to me, the gods really don't seem to care much. And I doubt they would care about her soul getting destroyed either. 

To me it looked like that Burial island was Woedica's domain. Perhaps other gods didn't even know Iovara was imprisoned there. But more likely they were indeed more worried about Woedica's imminent restoration, so they lent the Watcher their help going there. Makes me wonder, if Woedica was deposed a long time ago why wait so long to restore her? Not enough people living in the vicinity of the machines?

 

Also, I think it's obvious there is no consensus among the gods about anything and they're not infallible. Some gods want to eradicate other gods, other gods want all the power to themselves. Some gods wanted to erase all trace of Engwithans who knew their secrets from the face of Eora, while others were against it. And while they squabble and plot, reluctant/unable to act directly against each other, such mishaps as Iovara's info leak happen.

 

 

I wonder if the other gods have no knowledge of Iovara being there. Right after talking to her, you do get contacted by Wael. But that's a pretty convenient god. If he alone has knowledge about things happening down there, not considering Woedica of course I suppose he's keeping it secret to the other gods.

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There's no way for Iovara out of Breith Eaman that doesn't involve her becoming a servant to one of the gods. 

She couldn't leave the island herself, true, but someone could go down there and talk to her. Which is exactly what happened in the end. And since we descended into the pit with the help of the gods themselves (surely they remembered that Iovara was still down there and able to talk?) they probably weren't all that worried about her potentially spreading the truth. At least not as much as they were about Woedica gaining power. Her punishment looks more like Thaos' personal vendetta to me, the gods really don't seem to care much. And I doubt they would care about her soul getting destroyed either. 

To me it looked like that Burial island was Woedica's domain. Perhaps other gods didn't even know Iovara was imprisoned there. But more likely they were indeed more worried about Woedica's imminent restoration, so they lent the Watcher their help going there. Makes me wonder, if Woedica was deposed a long time ago why wait so long to restore her? Not enough people living in the vicinity of the machines?

 

Also, I think it's obvious there is no consensus among the gods about anything and they're not infallible. Some gods want to eradicate other gods, other gods want all the power to themselves. Some gods wanted to erase all trace of Engwithans who knew their secrets from the face of Eora, while others were against it. And while they squabble and plot, reluctant/unable to act directly against each other, such mishaps as Iovara's info leak happen.

 

 

I wonder if the other gods have no knowledge of Iovara being there. Right after talking to her, you do get contacted by Wael. But that's a pretty convenient god. If he alone has knowledge about things happening down there, not considering Woedica of course I suppose he's keeping it secret to the other gods.

You also get contacted by Skaen right there at the end.

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There's no way for Iovara out of Breith Eaman that doesn't involve her becoming a servant to one of the gods. 

She couldn't leave the island herself, true, but someone could go down there and talk to her. Which is exactly what happened in the end. And since we descended into the pit with the help of the gods themselves (surely they remembered that Iovara was still down there and able to talk?) they probably weren't all that worried about her potentially spreading the truth. At least not as much as they were about Woedica gaining power. Her punishment looks more like Thaos' personal vendetta to me, the gods really don't seem to care much. And I doubt they would care about her soul getting destroyed either. 

To me it looked like that Burial island was Woedica's domain. Perhaps other gods didn't even know Iovara was imprisoned there. But more likely they were indeed more worried about Woedica's imminent restoration, so they lent the Watcher their help going there. Makes me wonder, if Woedica was deposed a long time ago why wait so long to restore her? Not enough people living in the vicinity of the machines?

 

Also, I think it's obvious there is no consensus among the gods about anything and they're not infallible. Some gods want to eradicate other gods, other gods want all the power to themselves. Some gods wanted to erase all trace of Engwithans who knew their secrets from the face of Eora, while others were against it. And while they squabble and plot, reluctant/unable to act directly against each other, such mishaps as Iovara's info leak happen.

 

 

I wonder if the other gods have no knowledge of Iovara being there. Right after talking to her, you do get contacted by Wael. But that's a pretty convenient god. If he alone has knowledge about things happening down there, not considering Woedica of course I suppose he's keeping it secret to the other gods.

You also get contacted by Skaen right there at the end.

 

Ahh yeah I forgot about that. Skaen is known to be in league with Woedica as far as I remember.

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There's no way for Iovara out of Breith Eaman that doesn't involve her becoming a servant to one of the gods. 

She couldn't leave the island herself, true, but someone could go down there and talk to her. Which is exactly what happened in the end. And since we descended into the pit with the help of the gods themselves (surely they remembered that Iovara was still down there and able to talk?) they probably weren't all that worried about her potentially spreading the truth. At least not as much as they were about Woedica gaining power. Her punishment looks more like Thaos' personal vendetta to me, the gods really don't seem to care much. And I doubt they would care about her soul getting destroyed either. 

To me it looked like that Burial island was Woedica's domain. Perhaps other gods didn't even know Iovara was imprisoned there. But more likely they were indeed more worried about Woedica's imminent restoration, so they lent the Watcher their help going there. Makes me wonder, if Woedica was deposed a long time ago why wait so long to restore her? Not enough people living in the vicinity of the machines?

 

Also, I think it's obvious there is no consensus among the gods about anything and they're not infallible. Some gods want to eradicate other gods, other gods want all the power to themselves. Some gods wanted to erase all trace of Engwithans who knew their secrets from the face of Eora, while others were against it. And while they squabble and plot, reluctant/unable to act directly against each other, such mishaps as Iovara's info leak happen.

 

 

I wonder if the other gods have no knowledge of Iovara being there. Right after talking to her, you do get contacted by Wael. But that's a pretty convenient god. If he alone has knowledge about things happening down there, not considering Woedica of course I suppose he's keeping it secret to the other gods.

You also get contacted by Skaen right there at the end.

 

Ahh yeah I forgot about that. Skaen is known to be in league with Woedica as far as I remember.

I personally doubt he's really in league with anyone but himself. Definitely has some ulterior motives for working with her, the sneaky bastard that he is.

Edited by Juodas Varnas
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Skaen is the slave of Woedica. That is a pretty key part of being Skaen. One of his names is 'The Queen's Slave' or just 'The Slave'.

 

Based on our interaction with them he seems to despise her but does her bidding anyway.

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Skaen is the slave of Woedica. That is a pretty key part of being Skaen. One of his names is 'The Queen's Slave' or just 'The Slave'.

 

Wasn't it "The QUIET Slave"?

 

Checked the wiki, in the aliases section it mentions: Quiet Slave, the Queen's slave, The Schemer and the Effigy.

 

But i don't remember him being referred to as the Queen's slave at any point in the game itself, so i've no idea.

 

Now, if you ask me, i think Skaen might be 'helping' Woedica to give her enough power to make her a target for the other gods. I mean, what happened to the other god stepped out of the bounds? Eothas got hammered.

Edited by Juodas Varnas
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Anyway, I still don't get why it's evil to release her into the wheel, sounds stupid from all angles. For someone who sat imprisoned for such a long time I think Iovara didn't think her situation through enough.

 

Think of it like this: You firmly believe in a cause. You devote all of your life to it, fight for it with all your might. Even at your final hour, when your bones are being shattered at the wheel, you'd stay true to your ideals and spit in the face of those who would dampen them, rather than end your pain with but a single moment of hypocrisy.

And then somebody just barges right into your prison and is like "hey, did it occur to you that if you do this one thing that completely opposes everything you ever believed in and fought for your entire life, you can be sort of free?" ...yeah. That's Iovara's perspective the way I see it.

 

Also, she begs you not to do it. Doing it anyway seems evil enough to me.

 

That's all understandable, but still stupid. She could've had another chance to fight by going through the wheel if she Awakened later. But being against it she just looked like she admitted defeat, like she just wanted to stay a powerless sore in the eye of the gods. It's a shame there is no option like that to convince her to continue the fight, to promise to find and Awaken her later.

 

What makes you think that she would remember the truth about the gods after her Awakening? The Watcher doesn't 

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Anyway, I still don't get why it's evil to release her into the wheel, sounds stupid from all angles. For someone who sat imprisoned for such a long time I think Iovara didn't think her situation through enough.

 

Think of it like this: You firmly believe in a cause. You devote all of your life to it, fight for it with all your might. Even at your final hour, when your bones are being shattered at the wheel, you'd stay true to your ideals and spit in the face of those who would dampen them, rather than end your pain with but a single moment of hypocrisy.

And then somebody just barges right into your prison and is like "hey, did it occur to you that if you do this one thing that completely opposes everything you ever believed in and fought for your entire life, you can be sort of free?" ...yeah. That's Iovara's perspective the way I see it.

 

Also, she begs you not to do it. Doing it anyway seems evil enough to me.

 

That's all understandable, but still stupid. She could've had another chance to fight by going through the wheel if she Awakened later. But being against it she just looked like she admitted defeat, like she just wanted to stay a powerless sore in the eye of the gods. It's a shame there is no option like that to convince her to continue the fight, to promise to find and Awaken her later.

 

What makes you think that she would remember the truth about the gods after her Awakening? The Watcher doesn't 

 

But isn't the Watcher's case of 'awakening' kind of special? From what i understood, when people awaken they literally have another completely separate personality and not just random visions like the Watcher.

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Anyway, I still don't get why it's evil to release her into the wheel, sounds stupid from all angles. For someone who sat imprisoned for such a long time I think Iovara didn't think her situation through enough.

 

Think of it like this: You firmly believe in a cause. You devote all of your life to it, fight for it with all your might. Even at your final hour, when your bones are being shattered at the wheel, you'd stay true to your ideals and spit in the face of those who would dampen them, rather than end your pain with but a single moment of hypocrisy.

And then somebody just barges right into your prison and is like "hey, did it occur to you that if you do this one thing that completely opposes everything you ever believed in and fought for your entire life, you can be sort of free?" ...yeah. That's Iovara's perspective the way I see it.

 

Also, she begs you not to do it. Doing it anyway seems evil enough to me.

 

That's all understandable, but still stupid. She could've had another chance to fight by going through the wheel if she Awakened later. But being against it she just looked like she admitted defeat, like she just wanted to stay a powerless sore in the eye of the gods. It's a shame there is no option like that to convince her to continue the fight, to promise to find and Awaken her later.

 

What makes you think that she would remember the truth about the gods after her Awakening? The Watcher doesn't 

 

But isn't the Watcher's case of 'awakening' kind of special? From what i understood, when people awaken they literally have another completely separate personality and not just random visions like the Watcher.

 

What makes you think that? That only happens if the other personality is stronger than the present one. Maneha's Awakening didn't give her a new personality, for example, just bad memories. 

 

Also, what makes you think that she will Awaken? How are you going to find her soul again? Unlike Sagani, the Watcher does not have a magic figurine that lights up when  her soul is near.  

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Awakenings seem to vary greatly in intensity and just what is awakened. They're also extremely rare. It's a hell of a gambit to make.

As opposed to sitting in a soul prison for an eternity?

 

Yeah, she'll probably have a higher success ratio sitting in soul prison keeping the secret alive. She told at least 6 people (the Watcher and the party). Someone else might come, a few centuries from then, which is more than she could expect, had she been reborn. 

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