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Update #40 - Multiclassing Part II


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#61
Lamppost in Winter

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#62
esyvjrt

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Nice, i like most of the update, that said:

-I really don't like the idea of having established abilities for multi-classes, would prefer to choose the class1 and class2 abilities at levels 4, 7, 10,13, 16,and 19

-Neither Paladins/Priest multi-class having subclasses limitations

-Isn't decay Rymrgand's portfolio? shouldn't Berath have something more directly related to death and life?

-I don't understand Eothas having Elemental spells

-Multi-classes names: i really like some, i dislike a few, and i would change most of them.



#63
blotter

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Neither Paladins/Priest multi-class having subclasses limitations

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but they've explicitly stated that Paladin/Priest multiclass combos will be restricted in terms of the subclasses that be can chosen and further listed exactly which ones you won't be able to select if you take a particular subclass. Do you mean that you don't like the way they've set it up?

 

Isn't decay Rymrgand's portfolio? shouldn't Berath have something more directly related to death and life?

 

Rymrgand's the god of entropy rather than decay per se. Berath is the god of death, mortality, and cycles, among other things. Even the decay-based magic of druids probably emphasizes ties to the natural order, wherein the remains of the fallen fuel the emergence of new life, so it would likely be a closer match for the process of life in death and death in life that Berath represents as opposed to the final collapse that Rymrgand brings.

 

I don't understand Eothas having Elemental spells

 

Agreed. This seems like a loose fit at best.


Edited by blotter, 20 September 2017 - 03:00 PM.


#64
esyvjrt

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but they've explicitly stated that Paladin/Priest multiclass combos will be restricted in terms of the subclasses that be can chosen and further listed exactly which ones you won't be able to select if you take a particular subclass. Do you mean that you don't like the way they've set it up?

 

I was expressing my displeasure with this decision

 

 

 

 

Rymrgand's the god of entropy rather than decay per se. Berath is the god of death, mortality, and cycles, among other things. Even the decay-based magic of druids probably emphasizes ties to the natural order, wherein the remains of the fallen fuel the emergence of new life, so it would likely be a closer match for the process of life in death and death in life that Berath represents as opposed to the final collapse that Rymrgand brings.

 


 

 

 

 

I meant decay is more related to Rymrgands portfolio than Beraths, but this is a value judgment and  there can be an explanation of why Berath is related for decay. Anyway i think that fits more naturally with Rymrgand:

Berath: Cycles, doorways, inevitability, mortality, death and life itself.

Rymrgand: Winter, famine, entropy, bad luck, plague, natural disasters .



#65
LordInsane

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I will admit that I find it odd that Wizard/Cipher is Hierophant and Wizard/Priest is Thaumaturge rather than the other way around - hierophant seems so very... priestly a term.



#66
Enoch

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This raises lots of questions about spellcasting classes. 

 

Fundamentally, we have a pretty good idea about how Wizards work-- they get to learn a few select spells innately, selected as a class ability, and add more of them by equipping a Grimoire with additional spells in it.  But I don't recall anything being said about Priests and Druids.  The "can learn"/"cannot learn"/"gain access to" language in the subclass descriptions and the ability tree layout in the video seem to suggest that they'll need to spend a class ability to unlock each individual spell.  Which would be massively more restrictive than was the case in Pillars 1.  Or does using a Class Ability on a Level X spell just get you one more per-encounter cast of any of the spells at that level?  (Which would be a similar structure to that in Pillars 1.)  And how would the "can learn [X-type] [other class] spells" characteristics interact with this-- would each spell require an Ability investment, or are the just added to the list of spells the PRI/DRU can access all the time?

 

I'm assuming that prohibited schools will only apply within that class (e.g., so a Conjurer/Magran Thaumaturge can use Priest abilities to cast Wizard Fire spells, even if they are Evocations), but the contrary wouldn't completely surprise me.  (Although it would likely make some multiclass combinations far less viable.)

 

And, of course, more info on spell schools will be of great importance in planning characters.  Ruling out spells entirely feels like a quite harsh penalty for specialization.  (I tend to prefer the Pathfinder approach where opposed-school spells consume more resources, but aren't wholly barred.)  This is particularly evident for Priests, who can't opt out of specialization.  Based wholly on surmise grounded in the school name, playing a Priest without Protection spells or Inspiration spells, in particular, sounds to me like the guts being cut out of the class.  Those poor Eothasians and Skaenites...


Edited by Enoch, 20 September 2017 - 07:04 PM.


#67
floredon

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You can't combine 2 subclasses of the same class and there are some paladin/priest subclasses combo restrictions so it's be less but still a lot

 

Edit - the 55 is the base class combos. There are 39 subclasses (unless I miscounted) on top of the original 11... so 50 class options total?

 

Edit2 - Can't be right since you must take a paladin order or a god if a priest so... 48?

 

Edit3 - 8 classes have 4 options (1 base + 3 subs), 2 have 5 (5 subs), 1 has 6 (1 base + 5 subs, damn wizards). And picking one locks that whole class group out and that's before restricted combos... I see why Josh gave up trying to figure it out in his head

Hmm, you're right it can't be represented as a simple composition of combinations, you would have to look at each of the 55 base classes separately and see exactly how they implement the subclass structure on top of that. It will be interesting to see how it turns out in the end.



#68
Osvir

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Oh I forgot. We also have race, subrace, and gender, how many combinations are that? :p
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#69
Nail

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If Spellblade will have backstab with spells... I guess it's the way I'll play



#70
FlintlockJazz

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I like the change to more of a 2nd-edition style D&D multiclassing.  I was never a big fan of 3rd edition multiclassing anyway so maybe that is why?  Regardless, this feels more suited to the classes in Pillars and a lot less confusing.



#71
EbonyBetty

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zg7e3.gif

 

That is all...


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#72
Boeroer

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I think this decision will lead to less patches. ;)

I really want to try a Shapeshifter/Shattered Pillar with Wildstrike Burn and Turning Wheel. >+100% burning lash on those claws/tusks/horns seems to be... awesomest? Also Lightning Strikes on top I guess...

#73
Karkarov

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So why do people keep saying "so I only get half the power of each class...."?

The chart is crystal clear.  You simply don't get every ability from both classes, and you can only reach power level 7, whereas a single class can get to power level 9.  I am just not seeing how anyone interprets that as "half the power".  Obsidian's desire to do something balanced and original seems like it is doomed to be foiled by munchkins who just wanted broken 3.5 D&D mechanics.... again.

I am just happy to see there is a melee focused cipher subclass.

Name wise, they are fine.


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#74
nstgc

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Thanks for the update. Seems as if this multi-classing system is more structured. Can't say that I'm sad to see that. Of course most everything we've been shown makes me happy to be a backer.


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#75
Boeroer

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So why do people keep saying "so I only get half the power of each class...."?

The chart is crystal clear.  You simply don't get every ability from both classes, and you can only reach power level 7, whereas a single class can get to power level 9.  I am just not seeing how anyone interprets that as "half the power".  Obsidian's desire to do something balanced and original seems like it is doomed to be foiled by munchkins who just wanted broken 3.5 D&D mechanics.... again.

I am just happy to see there is a melee focused cipher subclass.

Name wise, they are fine.


I think this one was a good decision. Better to take a step back and rethink than trying to fix a system that is way too complex to take out all pitfalls in a reasonable amount of time and that's too complicated so that even the own designers don't get it right. ;)

I also can't see why you would only get half of the power. 7 out of 9 is not 50% - and also people tend to forget that certain synergies can be OP no matter the power level. Like if you could combine Soul Whip with Carnage and so on. The rogue is a good example in PoE 1 how high level abilites do nothing for your power. ;)
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#76
Jajo

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After talking things over with the other system designers, we discussed what the most important aspects of multiclassing were.
  • Allowing people to realize hybrid class character concepts.  "I want to be a fighter and a wizard."
  • Keeping the overall power of the character competitive with single-class characters.  The character should be viable.  It's okay if it winds up over- or a little under-powered compared to a single-class character as long as it's not fundamentally weak.
  • Allowing players to emphasize one aspect of the hybrid more than others.  "I'm a fighter and a wizard, but more of a wizard."
The original design allowed the first and the last aspects, but the middle aspect suffered because of the high degree of flexibility.  It was still easy to make non-viable characters.  A non-viable character can be part of a viable party, but still feels bad to play.  The high degree of flexibility also strained the first aspect, the basic character concept.  A character with 18 levels in fighter and 2 levels in rogue is less of a character concept and more of a strategic build choice.
 
I went back to the drawing board to revisit an idea I had around the same time as the original design, which was based on AD&D 2nd Edition-style multiclassing, where the player chooses to opt into multiclassing at character creation instead of selecting classes level-by-level.  In such systems, the core concept is established from the beginning.  A player who says, "I want to be a fighter and a wizard," can be that (a battlemage) from the beginning instead of picking one class and then alternating to the other later on.  Progression is also easier to understand from the beginning as access to abilities and the increase of their power is consistent from multiclass to multiclass.  A fighter/rogue (swashbuckler) gains access to 2nd level abilities for both classes at 4th level, as does a priest/monk (contemplative), barbarian/chanter (howler), and druid/ranger (beastmaster).

 

 

How are these static class composition progressions (you're basically replacing 11 classes with 55 classes) addressing the third core aspect of multiclassing? It seems to me You're just replacing system that takes care of points 1 and 3 with a system that takes care of points 1 and 2. Multiclassed characters will after all be forced to have multiclass progression in everything, not just abilities*. To take your illustration (and I'm not quite sure what was it supposed to illustrate), one of the ideas behind taking 2rogue/18fighter in 3ed is, that HP pool is not significantly diminished. In PoE2 it would be, since HP is not something, that the player chooses at level up - it is something, that is attributed automatically. Saving throws and BAB also fall into this category - these are all very, very important derived stats.

 

*I do not now what exactly is bundled together in this abstract term, so my concerns might be addressed already.



#77
draego

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Multiclassed characters will after all be forced to have multiclass progression in everything, not just abilities*.

 

Well abilities aren't exactly forced, i mean when you get them yes but what you take no. You can be a figher/rogue and take 90% fighter abilities. So there is still some flexibility. And you get more overall abilities than a single class. The other defenses in POE are defined by Attributes so there is no progression issue there because they all progress the same. This change would only significantly affect health and maybe starting deflection in POE 2 which would be averaged since i think accuracy is the same for everyone now.


Edited by draego, 21 September 2017 - 06:47 AM.

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#78
injurai

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Pretty sure they've got physical based rendering going on, looks fantastic.


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#79
Boeroer

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How are these static class composition progressions (you're basically replacing 11 classes with 55 classes) addressing the third core aspect of multiclassing?


You are able to pick different abilites on every level. You don't get them automatically. So two fighter/wizards can look and play very differently. That's how I guess.
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#80
rjshae

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Very nice, and logical. The expanded class concept allows players a much greater chance of realizing their character concept, as well as providing greater flexibility in play. But why isn't there a necromancer sub-class?


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