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Update #40 - Multiclassing Part II


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#41
crunluath

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Oh no, that leap... I love PoE for the classic wRPG feel but that leap is way too jRPG for my tastes. 



#42
algroth

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Oh no, that leap... I love PoE for the classic wRPG feel but that leap is way too jRPG for my tastes. 

 

It was already there in The White March. I like it myself.


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#43
ShadySands

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Haven't we known that we'd get AD&D-style multiclassing for a while? 

I don't think so or at least I didn't know that.

 

I thought we were gettiing 3rd edition style multiclassing until this update dropped and I try to keep on top of things though I'm not perfect (despite what everyone says) and I could have missed it.


Edited by ShadySands, 20 September 2017 - 11:08 AM.


#44
crunluath

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Oh no, that leap... I love PoE for the classic wRPG feel but that leap is way too jRPG for my tastes. 

 

It was already there in The White March. I like it myself.

 

Ah yes, I see that now. Haven't touched the Barbarian class too much. And to each their own, of course, I just find it a bit cringey. Had the same reaction to a similar move introduced to Dragon Age 2 for 2H warrior, just a little silly looking.



#45
Insidous

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I got this answer in an online calculator. What does the E stand for? (1030*1030*1030*1030*1030)
 
1.159274074E15

 
e (mathematical constant)

 

 

it has nothing to do with the constant,  E15 means times 10^15

 

https://en.wikipedia...tion#E-notation

 

Great update! I was looking forward to multiclass my priest of wael with a rogue. Now i don't know if I should do wael + assassin or simply trickster. Too bad that trickster and wael don't seem to synergize very well. Same goes for either combined with wizard or illusionist. I feel like giving subclasses access to other classes abilities makes multiclassing somewhat redundant 


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#46
SaruNi

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Interesting that some subclasses get access to features from other classes. That's a bit of an overlap between multiclasing and subclasses. An Illusionist/Trickster multiclass would probably be overkill.

 

My first reaction was "that's a terribly lazy and boring way to implement the Trickster archetype, and with multiclassing as an option it's especially boring... is it so hard to come up with some more Rogue abilities?"....

 

But if a Trickster multiclasses into something other than Wizard/Illusionist, it's like having the abilities of three classes. Or for maximal illusion a Beguiler/Trickster.... A weaker sneak attack is a huge penalty, so stealth/shadowing beyond needs to be significantly improved for the Trickster to really be worthwhile. (Alternately they could improve Rogue disables or reserve the Trickster as a sort of "picks locks and avoids combat" subclass but both those ideas are terribly boring.)



#47
Leferd

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Still trying to wrap my mind around the idea that Serafen is a witch.
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#48
AndreaColombo

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He isn't. He is either a Barbarian or a Cipher. You can make him a Witch, if you want, but he isn't one by default.

#49
AndreaColombo

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Interesting bits here: https://jesawyer.tum...tem-still-allow


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#50
draego

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This is what i was mentioning earlier. You can still specialize in one class heavily even though you multi class making you feel more like first with a little bit of the second. This is good because even within a given multiclass you can have different playstyles and strategies since in multiple runs you can take completely different abilities. Boeroer will have his work cut out for him.


Edited by draego, 20 September 2017 - 12:21 PM.

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#51
Mygaffer

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Has there been any thought given to a single unique ability for each multiclass? Perhaps just a different spin one of the two core class's abilities. For instance a Ravager, monk/barbarian, would have a version of Swift Strikes called Rapid Assault (or whatever) that for X wounds enables frenzy for Y seconds with each strike dealing extra carnage damage to all enemies in range. Rapid Assault would only be available to ravagers, not pure monks and not pure barbarians.

 

Whether that specific ability makes sense or not I don't know, I merely use that to illustrate what I mean.

 

That single ability could be a good way to express character/theme through gameplay mechanics, as this one unique ability would help define what the class is about.

 

Just a thought.

 

I loved the video btw, keep up the great work.


Edited by Mygaffer, 20 September 2017 - 02:35 PM.


#52
Mygaffer

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Oh no, that leap... I love PoE for the classic wRPG feel but that leap is way too jRPG for my tastes. 

That leap is in POE though...

 

Looks like Dragon Leap to me.



#53
smjjames

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As for my character concept of a rogueish monk (monk/rogue or rogue/monk), the shadowdancer bit with the ability makes it a heck of a lot more ninja-like than the concept is, but it's still pretty dang cool.

 

I don't have a specific ratio in mind, so, I'd probably just wing it. Streetfighter subclass for rogue fits themeatically, not sure what monk subclass I'd use, if I do use one, maybe shattered pillar.


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#54
Skie Nightfall

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Game and UI look really damn pretty! :3


Edited by Skie Nightfall, 20 September 2017 - 12:50 PM.

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#55
floredon

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to find the number of total subclasses, isn't it just a composition of combinations? we have the original 11 choose 2 = 55. then compose 55 choose 2 to get 1485 total. enter this into google for example:

 

(11 choose 2) choose 2


Edited by floredon, 20 September 2017 - 12:56 PM.


#56
ShadySands

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You can't combine 2 subclasses of the same class and there are some paladin/priest subclasses combo restrictions so it's be less but still a lot

 

Edit - the 55 is the base class combos. There are 39 subclasses (unless I miscounted) on top of the original 11... so 50 class options total?

 

Edit2 - Can't be right since you must take a paladin order or a god if a priest so... 48?

 

Edit3 - 8 classes have 4 options (1 base + 3 subs), 2 have 5 (5 subs), 1 has 6 (1 base + 5 subs, damn wizards). And picking one locks that whole class group out and that's before restricted combos... I see why Josh gave up trying to figure it out in his head


Edited by ShadySands, 20 September 2017 - 01:37 PM.


#57
Aotrs Commander

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Aw.  I liked 3.x-stye multiclassing, I thought it was one of the very best ideas in the game.

 

That.

 

Said.

 

It is one of those ideas that also works better when you have a lot more stuff to play wth (i.e. compare 3.x and/or PF compared to PoE - it'd be unreasonable to expect the breadth of the former in the latter). It's never been as satisfyingly implemented in CRPG form. AD&D mutliclassing was - and is fine for this sort of purpose.

 

(In fact, the one and only time I ran an AD&D campaign (and not Rolemaster and before 3.0), I allowed pretty much any one (races restrictions be damned) multi or dual class if they wanted. Otherwise (in my group's experience), al most no-one played a human. Contrast with 3.x, where almost no-one plays a NON human! that extra feat and skills makes all the difference...!)

 

So, I'm perfectly okay with this.

 

As Josh sort of implied, 3.x-style mutliclassing works best for min-max/optimisers (like me[1]!)  I can see how a more robust, complex system by its very nature is a lot harder to balance, with a lot more traps or the uninitiatred (or just the more casual player).

 

Hell, I'm initimately familiar with the problem, I just recnetly released my tabletop starship rules after fourteen years of development, and in the end - because it is an open ended system where you basically make your own races and ships - I had to include a sort of "idiot's guide" to try and explain why you pick x over y. (As you might gather, it's a sort of system for keenies like muggins, the sort of person who will spend tens of hours faffinf with rules for 3.x and such...!)

 

 

 

 

 

[1]Spare a moment's a pity for my poor players, since I'm the primary DM..!



#58
Lephys

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I'm missing something on the change from power sources to this. Firstly, what function did separate power sources provide that simply basing things off of aggregate level didn't provide? Secondly, the new system will have a LvL 20 Wizard/Fighter at the ability-tier progression of a LvL 10 Wizard and LvL 10 Fighter, correct? But are the abilities scaled according to aggregate level? Like... if Minoletta's Magic Missiles adds +1 missile per 2 levels or whatever (I'm sorry I can't remember the specifics... I desperately need to play PoE more, especially before Deadfire comes out -- just roll with the example, please :p), then the LvL 20 SpellBlade would still be able to cast Minoletta's Magic Missiles with +10 missiles?

 

I guess what I'm getting at is, you'll be at roughly half-tier in what abilities you have available, but you shouldn't be much weaker, per se, than a single-class person. If that's the case, then honestly, if there ends up being a problem with power viability of some multi-class combos, then Obsidian could actually just give them a wee ability power-scaling handicap. Like, 1.10 instead of 1.00, etc.

 

Feel free to correct anything I'm wrong about. I'm genuinely wondering about this, and apologize for my noobishness.



#59
draego

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I'm missing something on the change from power sources to this. Firstly, what function did separate power sources provide that simply basing things off of aggregate level didn't provide? Secondly, the new system will have a LvL 20 Wizard/Fighter at the ability-tier progression of a LvL 10 Wizard and LvL 10 Fighter, correct? But are the abilities scaled according to aggregate level? Like... if Minoletta's Magic Missiles adds +1 missile per 2 levels or whatever (I'm sorry I can't remember the specifics... I desperately need to play PoE more, especially before Deadfire comes out -- just roll with the example, please :p), then the LvL 20 SpellBlade would still be able to cast Minoletta's Magic Missiles with +10 missiles?

 

I guess what I'm getting at is, you'll be at roughly half-tier in what abilities you have available, but you shouldn't be much weaker, per se, than a single-class person. If that's the case, then honestly, if there ends up being a problem with power viability of some multi-class combos, then Obsidian could actually just give them a wee ability power-scaling handicap. Like, 1.10 instead of 1.00, etc.

 

Feel free to correct anything I'm wrong about. I'm genuinely wondering about this, and apologize for my noobishness.

 

I dont think the ability progression is character level based like "Minoletta's Magic Missiles adds +1 missile per 2 levels". There is still a power level and i bet the missiles spells scales with the power level. so single class reaches power level 9 and multi reaches power level 7. So you will be able to pick all skills from both classes that correspond to power level 7 or below with a multi class  and if those abilities scale they will reach power level 7 with multi class (just two levels below a single class missiles). where a single class will reach 9 for both abilities choices and scaling power. So it not multi classes are 50% of single class. And on top of that you will be able to pick more abilities/spell with multiclasses so they will always have more abilities than single. Finally you dont have to alternate with the classes on what abilities you gets. so for fighter/wizard you can get 75% fighter abilities and 25% wizards. Well at least this is how i interpret the info so far with some speculation.


Edited by draego, 20 September 2017 - 01:38 PM.


#60
ruzen

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:bow: Obsidian just dropped a bombshell and my Pollymorp+Scoundrel assassin got killed by it. Thanks, Obsidian you ruined the Divinity:OS2 for me.






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