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# Update #40 - Multiclassing Part II

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### #21 Doppelschwert Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:15 AM

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Here is the obligatory combinations-computation post:

Including the base class as a "subclass choice", we get the following:

There are 8 classes with 4 subclasses; 2 with 5 and 1 with 6, for a total of 8*4+2*5+6=48 subclasses. You can combine them in 48*48= 2304 ways (counting them twice for now).

We need to subtract combination of different subclasses of the same class, which means subtracting the squares of the individual numbers:

8*42+2*52+62 = 8*16+2*25+36 = 214, leading to 2304 - 214 = 2090 combinations.

So far, we counted every combination twice, so lets reduce it to 1045 actual combinations.

We also need to subtract the forbidden paladin/priest combinations, which amounts to 3+3+2+4+3=15 forbidden combinations (counting from the paladin list):

1045-15 =1030

Here you have it, 1030 subclass combinations for you to play in deadfire.

Good news: You'll be able to advertise this game with the possibility of over a thousand classes!

Bad news: I won't compute the number for the companions that can have custom classes

How many 5 man parties? 10305

Edited by Doppelschwert, 20 September 2017 - 10:20 AM.

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### #22 CottonWolf Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:15 AM

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with a 5-man party limit, and no generalist/godless priest announced, our single-class priest choice appears to have become more difficult.  not a bad thing, but am typical making considerable use o' all schools/types o' priestly spells when playing a poe priest. priest/paladin will definite get a looksee.

does makes us wish for a godless priest more.  am seeing thematic benefits o' godless particular in the poe setting and such a 'subclass' would allow for a generalist spell caster option such as will be available to wizards and druids who not wanna take a subclass.

HA! Good Fun!

Yeah, I've been arguing that they should add an "atheist" priest in the sequel since I saw the end of Pillars. It just seems like such a no-brainer.

### #23 Dopsim Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:16 AM

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So only MC at the start and always only "half" the power of each class.... Well i mb need 2 rethink my MC idea. Don't really wanna play Bad Mage+Bad Cypher. Well this day was horrible from the start, don't know why i decided this part of it will be better

i think the in the video say you still have choice about the abilities/talents you take from both classes. So if you want to be more of fighter while mult-class fighter/rogue you can still feel like more of fighter by not picking that may rogue abilities. So its something

And why do i care about choice in abilities if my base power for both still will be like i said? Nope. My idea for a MC died today. O well.

Edited by Dopsim, 20 September 2017 - 10:16 AM.

### #24 draego Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:17 AM

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https://jesawyer.tum...rn-to-add-style.  not sure if this is a full answer from Josh. I am wondering if you are forced to multclass them? or maybe you can single or multi but just have to stick with one approach

It is possible that once a companion joins, you get to select their first class and whether you want to MCâ€”if you do, a pop-up lets you pick the second class and relative subclass.

AD&D-style MC does away with a piece of flexibility I was looking forward to. Say I want to use Xoti as a Monk, but I really want a Priest in my party who is not the Watcher. With the old system, I could take any other companion and slap 19 levels of Priest on them. With AD&D-style MC, I must rely on a hired adventurer instead.

However, this is just my nitpicking. I like the new system better overall.

Ye i remember the original concept was you are forced to pick one of the base classes then you could multi to anything. I wonder if this is still the case so for Eder when you want to multclass you are force to pick fighter/rogue first but then are allowed to pick anything for the second. The would allow more flexibility you are referring to. Good question for Josh

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### #25 DexGames Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:18 AM

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I liked the previous system on paper but yeah, if it leds to a bunch of flaws, I guess you changed it for the best.

Please, if people aren't happy with "Names", spend your time on more important things. You won't make everyone happy anyway.

Or if you have time & ressources, implement that "rename" feature you were considering back in the day.

Nonetheless, GLORIOUS Update as promised !

Be Brave Josh ! This "BiÃ¢wac Of Names" won't get your Soul !

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### #26 algroth Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:20 AM

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So only MC at the start and always only "half" the power of each class.... Well i mb need 2 rethink my MC idea. Don't really wanna play Bad Mage+Bad Cypher. Well this day was horrible from the start, don't know why i decided this part of it will be better

Not quite. A multi-classed character only sacrifices two power levels by the time they're level 20, meaning it's closer to each class being at three quarters the power of their single-class equivalents, not half. Of course there is going to be some trade-off when you choose to multi-class instead of specializing in one specific class, and I don't think this is too bad.

Edited by algroth, 20 September 2017 - 10:22 AM.

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### #27 Enoch Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:21 AM

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with a 5-man party limit, and no generalist/godless priest announced, our single-class priest choice appears to have become more difficult.  not a bad thing, but am typical making considerable use o' all schools/types o' priestly spells when playing a poe priest. priest/paladin will definite get a looksee.

does makes us wish for a godless priest more.  am seeing thematic benefits o' godless particular in the poe setting and such a 'subclass' would allow for a generalist spell caster option such as will be available to wizards and druids who not wanna take a subclass.

HA! Good Fun!

A guess:  Xoti is going to break the rules, allowing most players to evade this problem.  We already know that she's a non-player-selectable Priestess of Gaun.  I'm guessing that she'll get access to all the Priest spells-- they won't want to have a school of spells that the vast majority of players (i.e., everyone who doesn't either play as a Priest or unexpectedly multiclass another NPC into Priest) will never see.

Of course, that does little to allay your concerns regarding single-classed Watcher Priests.

Edited by Enoch, 20 September 2017 - 10:22 AM.

### #28 Dopsim Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:23 AM

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So only MC at the start and always only "half" the power of each class.... Well i mb need 2 rethink my MC idea. Don't really wanna play Bad Mage+Bad Cypher. Well this day was horrible from the start, don't know why i decided this part of it will be better

Not quite. A multi-classed character only sacrifices two power levels by the time they're level 20, meaning it's closer to each class being at three quarters the power of their single-class equivalents, not half.

And this is why half was in quotation marks. Cause i didnt wanna waste time 2 elaborate. I don't need 3|4 Cypher. And pls don't spin it like i am complaining where is trade of. This make it sound like you think i am stupid  and i don't wanna think what about you

Edited by Dopsim, 20 September 2017 - 10:26 AM.

### #29 AndreaColombo Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:29 AM

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And this is why half was in quotation marks. Cause i didnt wanna waste time 2 elaborate. I don't need 3|4 Cypher. And pls don't spin it like i am complaining where is trade of.

May I ask what your character concept was?

The previous system also didn't allow MC characters to reach full power in any individual class. You could strike a balance at 10/10 and be meh at two classes, or go for an uneven split like 15/5 or 19/1 where you'd suck at one class, and be strong at the other while not being as strong as you could've been had you gone single class.

### #30 Dopsim Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:31 AM

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And this is why half was in quotation marks. Cause i didnt wanna waste time 2 elaborate. I don't need 3|4 Cypher. And pls don't spin it like i am complaining where is trade of.

May I ask what your character concept was?

The previous system also didn't allow MC characters to reach full power in any individual class. You could strike a balance at 10/10 and be meh at two classes, or go for an uneven split like 15/5 or 19/1 where you'd suck at one class, and be strong at the other while not being as strong as you could've been had you gone single class.

Mage 19|C1. I need a mage who have some slight cypher power which hurt his magic a little,
(Sorry about the part what was here before, just got frustrated)

Edited by Dopsim, 20 September 2017 - 10:47 AM.

### #31 algroth Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:33 AM

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So only MC at the start and always only "half" the power of each class.... Well i mb need 2 rethink my MC idea. Don't really wanna play Bad Mage+Bad Cypher. Well this day was horrible from the start, don't know why i decided this part of it will be better

Not quite. A multi-classed character only sacrifices two power levels by the time they're level 20, meaning it's closer to each class being at three quarters the power of their single-class equivalents, not half.

And this is why half was in quotation marks. Cause i didnt wanna waste time 2 elaborate. I don't need 3|4 Cypher. And pls don't spin it like i am complaining where is trade of. This make it sound like you think i am stupid  and i don't wanna think what about you

Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. What I meant was that that there was always going to be some power trade-off for each class of a multiclassed set as opposed to their single-class equivalents. I share some of your frustration inasmuch as I'd love to be able to access the highest-level abilities for each of these classes but if so I could see how single classes could be made superfluous in the process.

### #32 Osvir Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:35 AM

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Transmaster for the transmutation specialist subclass for wizard is a... interesting subclass name. I don't have a problem with it, just an interesting choice of subclass name.

Lol the mathing sequences.

Awesome update. :D

edit: How come Sister of the Reaping Moon is available for monk in the vid? Or is that just for testing?

Maybe a hint of ability to edit in more "Kits"? I remember it was a popular thing to do in Baldur's Gate modding.

### #33 Dopsim Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:35 AM

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So only MC at the start and always only "half" the power of each class.... Well i mb need 2 rethink my MC idea. Don't really wanna play Bad Mage+Bad Cypher. Well this day was horrible from the start, don't know why i decided this part of it will be better

Not quite. A multi-classed character only sacrifices two power levels by the time they're level 20, meaning it's closer to each class being at three quarters the power of their single-class equivalents, not half.

And this is why half was in quotation marks. Cause i didnt wanna waste time 2 elaborate. I don't need 3|4 Cypher. And pls don't spin it like i am complaining where is trade of. This make it sound like you think i am stupid  and i don't wanna think what about you

Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. What I meant was that that there was always going to be some power trade-off for each class of a multiclassed set as opposed to their single-class equivalents. I share some of your frustration inasmuch as I'd love to be able to access the highest-level abilities for each of these classes but if so I could see how single classes could be made superfluous in the process.

Again i am sorry but where did i say i wanted high level ability of 2 classes?  And where did i say i was frustrated i can't be best at 2 of them? I said i didn't in the quote you used
It was a stupid idea to post here probably. Just was a bit frustrated by the update (and no not because of the reason you named).

Edited by Dopsim, 20 September 2017 - 10:38 AM.

### #34 Gfted1 Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:38 AM

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### #35 Osvir Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:39 AM

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How many 5 man parties? 10305

I got this answer in an online calculator. What does the E stand for? (1030*1030*1030*1030*1030)

1.159274074E15

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### #36 algroth Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:39 AM

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So only MC at the start and always only "half" the power of each class.... Well i mb need 2 rethink my MC idea. Don't really wanna play Bad Mage+Bad Cypher. Well this day was horrible from the start, don't know why i decided this part of it will be better

Not quite. A multi-classed character only sacrifices two power levels by the time they're level 20, meaning it's closer to each class being at three quarters the power of their single-class equivalents, not half.

And this is why half was in quotation marks. Cause i didnt wanna waste time 2 elaborate. I don't need 3|4 Cypher. And pls don't spin it like i am complaining where is trade of. This make it sound like you think i am stupid  and i don't wanna think what about you

Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. What I meant was that that there was always going to be some power trade-off for each class of a multiclassed set as opposed to their single-class equivalents. I share some of your frustration inasmuch as I'd love to be able to access the highest-level abilities for each of these classes but if so I could see how single classes could be made superfluous in the process.

Again i am sorry but where did i say i wanted high level ability of 2 classes?  And where did i say i was frustrated i can't be best at 2 of them? I said i didn't in the quote you used,

Alright, sorry, I'm misinterpreting what you wish to say. Are you instead saying that we cannot choose how much predominance we give to either one class or the other, and are forced to go for a 50/50 split between the two instead of, say, 20/80 or the likes?

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### #37 Dopsim Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:44 AM

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Alright, sorry, I'm misinterpreting what you wish to say. Are you instead saying that we cannot choose how much predominance we give to either one class or the other, and are forced to go for a 50/50 split between the two instead of, say, 20/80 or the likes?

Yes, i wanted 19 mage/1 Cipher. I actually was really into this idea after MC announcement. Just sad it died, o well.
I am sorry to, i didn't make myself clear enough.

Edited by Dopsim, 20 September 2017 - 10:53 AM.

### #38 algroth Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:50 AM

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Alright, sorry, I'm misinterpreting what you wish to say. Are you instead saying that we cannot choose how much predominance we give to either one class or the other, and are forced to go for a 50/50 split between the two instead of, say, 20/80 or the likes?

Yes, i wanted 19 mage/1 Cipher. I actually was really into this idea after MC announcement. Just sad it died, o well.
I am sorry to, i probably didn't make myself clear enough.

No worries, sorry I didn't get you the first time. If I understand correctly from what I see in the video and the above explanation I think you *are* able to give greater predominance to one class over the other, as you'll be given a chance to unlock abilities from either class' trees as you level (and you could therefore dump all your resources into the wizard tree instead of the cipher tree), but yeah, you won't be able to make a 95/5 split between classes the way you could before. I personally think it's an okay tradeoff for what makes for a more solid, comprehensible system but I can get the frustration when a character idea you have goes falls on the wayside because of it.

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### #39 Gfted1 Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:54 AM

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I got this answer in an online calculator. What does the E stand for? (1030*1030*1030*1030*1030)

1.159274074E15

e (mathematical constant)

### #40 MortyTheGobbo Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:55 AM

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Haven't we known that we'd get AD&D-style multiclassing for a while? I really can't see the buffet-style kind would ever work. It's like the outline says - it opens up too many ways to create a weak character and make strategic choices. That's exactly what happened in 3e D&D. Picking class levels that you think fit your character will leave you with an inconsistent mess, while strategically dipping into a particular class can be pretty powerful (sorcerers grabbing a Paladin level for Charisma to saves). So I'm glad we won't get that in Deadfire.

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