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Dual Endurance Drain weapon Rogue?


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#121
Lampros

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@boeroer: on top about what you explained, having near a chanter that sings the phrase for +25% fire lash is another jump in power, since it affects both druid strikes ( togheter with the wildstrike) and avenging storm. Of course for such druid is better to go for fire wildstrike + scion of flame. If you cast also champion boon for the might boost you can crit for up to ~350 dmg while shifted.

Oh yeah right. I forgot that Avenging Storm will also get the burning lash. Neat. :)

 

 

When is Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr better than Dragon Thrashed? If you have 3 or more big weapon damage dealers? Less? More?



#122
JerekKruger

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When is Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr better than Dragon Thrashed? If you have 3 or more big weapon damage dealers? Less? More?

 

With enough levels of Brisk Recitation shouldn't you be able to run both without any down time on either? I have to admit I am always lazy with Chanters so I don't actually know how the linger compares with the chant times for each.


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#123
Boeroer

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Yes, you can alternate Dragon Thr. and Mith Fyr.

 

Stacking Mith Fyr doesn't do anything, so it's good to use something else as second phrase that fits into the linger time - something like Dragon Thrashed works.

 

With 10 INT the linger time of both is 4 seconds. So at lvl 16 (=Brisk Recitation shortens the chanting time of both to 4 secs) you can alternate between them without a gap. With more INT (expands linger time) you can do it earlier than lvl 16 of course. 

 

Mith Fyr also adds a lash to damaging (non-DoT) spells! Actually you don't need weapon damage dealers for it to be good.

 

It's also good for ciphers because lashes on their weapon produce focus as well.

 

I personally like Dragon Thrashed better though. But that's just my personal taste. I never did any tests or calculations like "which one is better in certain situations" or so. I think that MaxQuest for example likes Mith Fyr a lot.


Edited by Boeroer, 14 September 2017 - 06:49 AM.

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#124
Lampros

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When is Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr better than Dragon Thrashed? If you have 3 or more big weapon damage dealers? Less? More?

 

With enough levels of Brisk Recitation shouldn't you be able to run both without any down time on either? I have to admit I am always lazy with Chanters so I don't actually know how the linger compares with the chant times for each.

 

 

I usually prefer Aefyllath or Dragon Thrashed for the main and use the defensive Phrases for the linger, since I am a survival-obsessed chicken! ;)

 

But I guess I can do that as well.

 


 

Mith Fyr also adds a lash to damaging (non-DoT) spells! Actually you don't need weapon damage dealers for it to be good...

 

I personally like Dragon Thrashed better though. But that's just my personal taste. I never did any tests or calculations like "which one is better in certain situations" or so. I think that MaxQuest for example likes Mith Fyr a lot.

 

I did not know that! So I guess all my guys can use the lash buff.



#125
firkraag888

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Will a spirit shifted Druid out damage a rogue without avenging storm in melee?

#126
Dr <3

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I think yes, but don't have exact numbers. Also you have to consider if buffs are allowed or not, since Aefyllath or champions boon have much more efficacy on druid compared to rogue ( higher base dmg )
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#127
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I think yes, but don't have exact numbers. Also you have to consider if buffs are allowed or not, since Aefyllath or champions boon have much more efficacy on druid compared to rogue ( higher base dmg )

 

A pure newb question: Elemental damage buffs like Aefyllath require you to have some sort of (same) elemental damage to begin with, right? That is, I assume if you are doing 0 fire damage, adding a percentage fire buff to it will still result in 0 fire damage?


Edited by Lampros, 15 September 2017 - 09:15 AM.


#128
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A pure newb question: Elemental damage buffs like Aefyllath require you to have some sort of (same) elemental damage to begin with, right? That is, I assume if you are doing 0 fire damage, adding a percentage fire buff to it will still result in 0 fire damage?

 

No, they make you do an additional 25% damage as fire. So if you would usually hit an enemy for 20 slashing damage, say, would you instead hit them for 20 slashing damage and 5 burning damage. The burning damage has to go past 25% of the enemy's burn DR.

 

What's really good about this (and other lashes) is that this isn't 25% of your weapon's base damage, it's 25% of the damage you do after all other modifiers are added. To illustrate this suppose you have a character wielding a two-handed sword who has the Two-Handed Style and Savage Attacks talents and is under the effect of Aefyllath. For simplicity we'll assume they roll a 17 for their base damage (the average value):

  • With two-handed style this increases to 17*1.15 = 19.55 damage.
  • With Savage Attack you might think it increases further to 19.55*1.2 = 23.46, but it doesn't. Instead it increases to 17*(1+0.15+0.2) = 22.95
  • However with Aefyllath (and all other lashes) the 25% extra damage is applied after all other modifiers, doing an additional 22.95*0.25 = 5.74 damage.

If that's not clear it's because I haven't explained it very well, however long story short: lashes are better than other damage increases.


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#129
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Exactly. That's what makes lashes so powerful compared to base damage modifiers. But it also depends on DR. But generally speaking a 50% lash is more powerful than a 50% base damage bonus. The best thing is of course when you can combine both: base damage bonus will also increase lash damage. Imagine a rogue with Sneak, Deathblows AND Flames of Devotion or Turning Wheel or 50% Wildstrike lash. You can see this synergy very well when a rogue uses Tidefall...

The druid and the rogue might be on par without Avenging Storm if you only look at melee damage and put aside buffs from other party members. The druid might hit harder, but his ACC is rel. bad in comparison to the rogues'. Maybe at 0 recovery the rogue does a bit more, especially with Tidefall? Can't say... But this "strict" melee comparison is quite pointless because the druid will use spells like Relentless Storm, Calling the World's Maw or Embrace the Earth-Talon, why shouldn't he? To be honest it's a bit unfair that the druid does so much single target damage AND can use his spells. He should either be unable to cast while shifted or do less. Or the rogue should get more useful abilities - not necessarily dps tools, just something useful. Why doesn't he get some sort of AoE CC or Deathblows Trigger with Smoke Cloud or Persistent Distraction, why isn't he allowed to enter stealth again in combat with Shadow Step, why on earth is Fearsome Strike 1/rest while Heart of Fury and Charge are 1 or even 2/encounter? Why are Shadowing Beyond and Finishing Blow not 1/encounter? Why can't you cancel the prone phase of Feign Death? The druid turns into a roguelike shredding machine for 20 seconds - after he casts a Relentless Storm that turns everybody into shaky meatsacks... It's not fair. But hey! This is no campaign to nerf the druid! ;)


Edited by Boeroer, 15 September 2017 - 11:56 AM.

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#130
Lampros

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A pure newb question: Elemental damage buffs like Aefyllath require you to have some sort of (same) elemental damage to begin with, right? That is, I assume if you are doing 0 fire damage, adding a percentage fire buff to it will still result in 0 fire damage?

 

No, they make you do an additional 25% damage as fire. So if you would usually hit an enemy for 20 slashing damage, say, would you instead hit them for 20 slashing damage and 5 burning damage. The burning damage has to go past 25% of the enemy's burn DR.

 

What's really good about this (and other lashes) is that this isn't 25% of your weapon's base damage, it's 25% of the damage you do after all other modifiers are added. To illustrate this suppose you have a character wielding a two-handed sword who has the Two-Handed Style and Savage Attacks talents and is under the effect of Aefyllath. For simplicity we'll assume they roll a 17 for their base damage (the average value):

  • With two-handed style this increases to 17*1.15 = 19.55 damage.
  • With Savage Attack you might think it increases further to 19.55*1.2 = 23.46, but it doesn't. Instead it increases to 17*(1+0.15+0.2) = 22.95
  • However with Aefyllath (and all other lashes) the 25% extra damage is applied after all other modifiers, doing an additional 22.95*0.25 = 5.74 damage.

If that's not clear it's because I haven't explained it very well, however long story short: lashes are better than other damage increases.

 

 

Exactly. That's what makes lashes so powerful compared to base damage modifiers. But it also depends on DR. But generally speaking a 50% lash is more powerful than a 50% base damage bonus. The best thing is of course when you can combine both: base damage bonus will also increase lash damage. Imagine a rogue with Sneak, Deathblows AND Flames of Devotion or Turning Wheel or 50% Wildstrike lash. You can see this synergy very well when a rogue uses Tidefall...

The druid and the rogue might be on par without Avenging Storm if you only look at melee damage and put aside buffs from other party members. The druid might hit harder, but his ACC is rel. bad in comparison to the rogues'. Maybe at 0 recovery the rogue does a bit more, especially with Tidefall? Can't say... But this "strict" melee comparison is quite pointless because the druid will use spells like Relentless Storm, Calling the World's Maw or Embrace the Earth-Talon, why shouldn't he? To be honest it's a bit unfair that the druid does so much single target damage AND can use his spells. He should either be unable to cast while shifted or do less. Or the rogue should get more useful abilities - not necessarily dps tools, just something useful. Why doesn't he get some sort of AoE CC or Deathblows Trigger with Smoke Cloud or Persistent Distraction, why isn't he allowed to enter stealth again in combat with Shadow Step, why on earth is Fearsome Strike 1/rest while Heart of Fury and Charge are 1 or even 2/encounter? Why are Shadowing Beyond and Finishing Blow not 1/endurance? Why can't you cancel the prone phase of Feign Death? The druid turns into a roguelike shredding machine for 20 seconds - after he casts a Relentless Storm that turns everybody into shaky meatsacks... It's not fair. But hey! This is no campaign to nerf the druid! ;)

 

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation!






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