Dual Endurance Drain weapon Rogue?

[firkraag888]

It's all just banter dont take it personally.

 

I have done over 1000 hours of gameplay and I strongly object to the negative critasism people throw toward rogues. When I roll rogues they completely dominate the battlefield. They are far from a weak class as I feel you in particular have taken every opportunity to slander them. Yes there high level abilities are not that great but I feel you are greatly underestimating a rogues potential. Once a rogue has locked on to an opponent the rogue will disable them and take them down 90% of the time, and this is not just fodder they are doing this too it is the strongest of bosses.

 

And boerer you have Cleary said driving flight does not do reduced damage. Look at your post today at 12.34 pm paragraph 4. Also as I have said kaylon missed this in his calculations.

 

You have a lot more friends on this forum who back you I feel like that they do this just for the sake of backing you because of the relationship you have with the them. I feel kaylon post was an example of this.

 

I concede boerer that you no far more then me about pillars of eternity. And I enjoy learning from your posts and I thank you for your help.

 

But trust me rogues will out damage and disable any other class. Period

[JerekKruger]

stalkers link needs to be removed. like I said you cant rely on "what if this happens then this will happen " kind of stuff

 

Okay then sneak attack and deathblows need to be removed because we really can't rely on "what happens if we have two afflictions running".

 

and if you want to remove the hearth orlan benefit then you shoud remove the wood elf benefit because you cant have one getting the race benefit and the other not

 

You can if the situation where one race gets the advantage is reliant on having another character involved (which you yourself have precluded) but the advantage of the other race isn't.

 

I am fairly certain Boeroer is happy to leave you with Minor Threat, he's just pointing out that your insistence that Stalker's Link should be removed is hypocritical when you're including Minor Threat, an ability with exactly the same requirements.

 

twin arrows has reduced damage on second hits

 

Twinned Arrows and Driving Flight are separate abilities. As far as I can tell Kaylon didn't include Driving Flight at all in his damage calculations, and Boeroer's previous calculating correctly modified the damage for Driving Flight arrows.

 

in kaylons calcs there are four hits there taken into consideration with twin arrows and driving flights and he has assumed that all four have landed. 

 

No he hasn't. He has assumed two hits from Twinned Arrows

 

Each arrow hit (four of them) is subject different rolls of Acc vs def. He has also said the ranger would benefit from higher base damage for crits. No each arrow is a different calc so this is not true

 

For an average damage calculation this doesn't matter, since the average damage each arrow does (when you take into account miss, graze, hits and crit chances) will be the same as if you treat them as a single bigger arrow.

 

In case you don't believe this let's give an example: suppose we have two arrows that do 5 damage if they hit (so they do 2.5 damage on grazes and 7.5 damage on crits). Let's also assume that the attack is made against an Accuracy 10 higher than the target's Deflection, so they miss 5%, graze 35%, hit 50% and crit 10%.

 

The average damage when treated as two separate arrows is: 2*(0.35*2.5+0.5*5+0.10*7.5) = 8.25

 

The average damage when they are treated as a single bigger arrow is: 0.35*(2.5+2.5) + 0.5*(5+5) + 0.1*(7.5 + 7.5) = 8.25

 

and again why the hell was flanking included in those stats? this needs to be taken out 100%

 

So that's at least one affliction that we're not allowing for Sneak Attacks and Deathblows. Even more reason not to allow them in the calculations I guess.

 

and the rogues superior crit landing was not represented properly

 

Rather than merely state this why not explain how they should be represented. Explain what is wrong with Kaylon's calculations in this regard.

Edited September 13, 2017 by JerekKruger

[JerekKruger]

You have a lot more friends on this forum who back you I feel like that they do this just for the sake of backing you because of the relationship you have with the them. I feel kaylon post was an example of this.

 

The fact that many on this forum will agree with Boeroer is not sycophantism: it's because he is very knowledgeable, backs his statements up with evidence and is therefore very often right*. I can think of several situations when people have disagreed with Boeroer and turned out to be right (most notably regarding a Spiritshifted Druid's capacity to do single target damage).

 

But trust me rogues will out damage and disable any other class. Period 

 

If you want people to trust you, demonstrate it with evidence. Don't just make statements like this.

 

*He's also generally friendly and helpful individual as well, which is probably why people tend to be friendly in return.

Edited September 13, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Boeroer]

@firkraag:

Please read again:

I said Twinned Arrows have no reduced damage (which is correct). Twinned Arrows and Driving Flight are two seperate things. Twinned Arrows will fire two arrows at once with -10 ACC but normal damage. Driving Flight will make sure that every projectile will hit another target behind the inital one in an 20° arc.

I never said that Driving Flight has no reduced damage because that would be wrong.

And people here will back my opinion when they think it's true. They will also object me if they think I made a mistake.

That you still say that

rogues will out damage and disable any other class

 

actually shows quite well what I meant.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

 

stalkers link needs to be removed. like I said you cant rely on "what if this happens then this will happen " kind of stuff

 

 

Okay then sneak attack and deathblows need to be removed because we really can't rely on "what happens if we have two afflictions running".

 

and if you want to remove the hearth orlan benefit then you shoud remove the wood elf benefit because you cant have one getting the race benefit and the other not

 

You can if the situation where one race gets the advantage is reliant on having another character involved (which you yourself have precluded) but the advantage of the other race isn't.

 

I am fairly certain Boeroer is happy to leave you with Minor Threat, he's just pointing out that your insistence that Stalker's Link should be removed is hypocritical when you're including Minor Threat, an ability with exactly the same requirements.

 

twin arrows has reduced damage on second hits

 

 

Twinned Arrows and Driving Flight are separate abilities. As far as I can tell Kaylon didn't include Driving Flight at all in his damage calculations, and Boeroer's previous calculating correctly modified the damage for Driving Flight arrows.

 

in kaylons calcs there are four hits there taken into consideration with twin arrows and driving flights and he has assumed that all four have landed.

 

 

No he hasn't. He has assumed two hits from Twinned Arrows

 

Each arrow hit (four of them) is subject different rolls of Acc vs def. He has also said the ranger would benefit from higher base damage for crits. No each arrow is a different calc so this is not true

 

For an average damage calculation this doesn't matter, since the average damage each arrow does (when you take into account miss, graze, hits and crit chances) will be the same as if you treat them as a single bigger arrow.

 

In case you don't believe this let's give an example: suppose we have two arrows that do 5 damage if they hit (so they do 2.5 damage on grazes and 7.5 damage on crits). Let's also assume that the attack is made against an Accuracy 10 higher than the target's Deflection, so they miss 5%, graze 35%, hit 50% and crit 10%.

 

The average damage when treated as two separate arrows is: 2*(0.35*2.5+0.5*5+0.10*7.5) = 8.25

 

The average damage when they are treated as a single bigger arrow is: 0.35*(2.5+2.5) + 0.5*(5+5) + 0.1*(7.5 + 7.5) = 8.25

 

and again why the hell was flanking included in those stats? this needs to be taken out 100%

 

So that's at least one affliction that we're not allowing for Sneak Attacks and Deathblows. Even more reason not to allow them in the calculations I guess.

 

and the rogues superior crit landing was not represented properly

 

Rather than merely state this why not explain how they should be represented. Explain what is wrong with Kaylon's calculations in this regard.

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise

[Boeroer]

I think your points were answered correctly and in a decent manner and not "slandered" by any means.

 

You shouldn't turn to sarcasm if you get proven wrong. Just try for once to accept and acknowledge that somebody was right with a detail while you weren't. It's no big deal. You don't need to agree wholly to my opinion, but making snarky comments when somebody just clears things up (while a short "Oops, got the Driving Flight/Twinned Arrows thing mixed up" would be more appropriate) doesn't show grandeur.

[JerekKruger]

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise

 

Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.

[firkraag888]

 

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise

 

Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.

 

maybe if you tried intelligent communication instead of arguing like you yourself just admitted then you would have more success next time

[sendart]

I think your points were answered correctly and in a decent manner and not "slandered" by any means.

 

You shouldn't turn to sarcasm if you get proven wrong. Just try for once to accept and acknowledge that somebody was right with a detail while you weren't. It's no big deal. You don't need to agree wholly to my opinion, but making snarky comments when somebody just clears things up (while a short "Oops, got the Driving Flight/Twinned Arrows thing mixed up" would be more appropriate) doesn't show grandeur.

I think they are simply unable to wrap their heads around the idea that other classes have abilities/talents that lead to them doing comparable if not more damage than a rogue's. Much like the person who did not believe that spirit shift druids had better single target dps than rogues, except I think that person changed their mind when presented with the math.

[firkraag888]

and yes I mixed up the driving flight/ twin arrows. but I think you no what I meant.

 

It will be intersteing to see if kaylon did allow for driving flight or not

[Boeroer]

I think they are simply unable to wrap their heads around the idea that other classes have abilities/talents that lead to them doing comparable if not more damage than a rogue's. Much like the person who did not believe that spirit shift druids had better single target dps than rogues, except I think that person changed their mind when presented with the math.

That person was actually me. Nowadays I'm a huge fan of boar druids.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

 

I think they are simply unable to wrap their heads around the idea that other classes have abilities/talents that lead to them doing comparable if not more damage than a rogue's. Much like the person who did not believe that spirit shift druids had better single target dps than rogues, except I think that person changed their mind when presented with the math.

That person was actually me. Nowadays I'm a huge fan of boar druids.

 

 

But the difference is that someone changed their mind after being shown wrong, it looks like!

[mosspit]

 

 

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise

 

Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.

 

maybe if you tried intelligent communication instead of arguing like you yourself just admitted then you would have more success next time

 

Sorry just wanna chip in that JereKruger didn't deserve that comment for his detailed breakdown. Not that it matters, but it's the internet and I can post what I feel.

[Kaylon]

Of course Driving Flight wasn't included in my calculations. I also considered a party situation where the rogue/pet are assisting a companion which is something normal if you want them to stay alive as long as possible. My post wasn't made to support Boeroer or somebody else, I just tried to show the potential of each class. (In fact most of the things I pointed were in the favor of the rogue).If you think the rogue has higher accuracy please post your numbers, maybe I missed something.

[JerekKruger]

Sorry just wanna chip in that JereKruger didn't deserve that comment for his detailed breakdown. Not that it matters, but it's the internet and I can post what I feel.

 

Thanks. To be fair, whilst I stand by the content of my posts in this thread perhaps my delivery could have been better.

[firkraag888]

I have trouble wrapping my head around a ranger doing comparable damage to a rogue because I have done over 1000 hours of gameplay and from that experience of playing both rangers and rogues ( two classes I love btw)'you can tell there is a huge difference between a rogues effectiveness and a rangers effectiveness. I just dont believe that a ranger can dismantle a battlefield like a rogue can.

 

One thing I have noticed is that a rogues crits are not represented properly on this debate and maybe it is the rogues affliction capabilty that is also not adequately presented. Trust me , rogues, if built properly are one of the most powerful classes in the game. Why do you think obsidian gave them no late level abilities ththat are any good? Thats because they thought they are overpowered.

 

I completely wreck the game with a rogue for the simple fact they can lock down enemies one by one and kill them quickly. Unlike barbs who spread there damage out thinly over multiple targets who stand around the barb and hack him down.

Edited September 13, 2017 by firkraag888

[Lampros]

Why do you think obsidian gave them no late level abilities ththat are any good? Thats because they thought they are overpowered.

 

 

This is almost never a good argument. Game devs may know actual mechanics of the game better, but they are seldom better players or better judges of game balance than the top players - in part because they seldom spend enough time actually playing the game at high levels than the most dedicated players (who often try to find ways to break game or find exploits). While I may be a neophyte at this game, I've played enough games to know at least this much. In fact, I have been part of high profile raiding guilds across several MMORPGs (including one that consistently was among the earliest guilds in the world to down the initial WoW bosses) and recall devs had to patch stuff constantly, because bosses were being downed in a manner that was never even foreseen. Heck, I recall encounters where multi-stage bosses were essentially put down almost instantly in the first stage, because the top DPS-ers in top guilds were able to achieve DPS numbers that the devs thought "impossible."

 

Long story short: Devs are not only infallible but usually more fallible than the top players.

 

Edit: A rather telling story about how a lot of WoW Warriors quit and re-rolled even before the game went live (!). Initially, Warriors were envisioned by the devs to be a "tanking" class - while Hunters and Rogues were supposed to be the single-target DPS specialists. But we beta Warriors knew in practice this wasn't true, and that there was a less popular build that could stack a lot of unpopular talents to achieve the type of DPS that would blow anything Rogues or Hunters could achieve right out of the water. Unfortunately (for us Warriors), one of the beta Warriors insisted on fixing this issue and kept telling devs that Warrior DPS was OP and certainly not working as devs intended. The devs kept telling him that he is wrong. So the guy made a video that went viral and showed his Warrior two-shotting the entire (then) end-game outdoor content.

 

So Warriors got nerfed before the thing went live, and a lot of Warriors got angry (though the nerf was obviously needed). And devs were publicly embarrassed for being blind.

 

Needless to say, it wasn't the first time WoW devs would mis-diagnose end-game balance.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Lampros

[Lampros]

 

I don't think people will understand how crazy this was unless you played WoW beta or at least the first few months. This guy is basically clearing an entire end-game group area solo, without any end-game gear, and without even freaking resting.

 

That was beta Warrior DPS, and the devs kept saying Warrior DPS was far below those of Rogues and Hunters.

 

Sure, devs know what they are talking about. LOL.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Lampros

[Natures Bounty]

One thing I have noticed is that a rogues crits are not represented properly on this debate and maybe it is the rogues affliction capabilty that is also not adequately presented. Trust me , rogues, if built properly are one of the most powerful classes in the game. Why do you think obsidian gave them no late level abilities ththat are any good? Thats because they thought they are overpowered.

 

I completely wreck the game with a rogue for the simple fact they can lock down enemies one by one and kill them quickly. Unlike barbs who spread there damage out thinly over multiple targets who stand around the barb and hack him down.

 

All classes are overpowered, especially from Level 11 on. So yeah, rogues are overpowered too. There has been several threads about power comparisons and there has been consent, that the answer depends on your play style as well as playing and party mode. There has also been quite some (although not perfect) consent among the experienced players, that rogues are among the weaker classes in the game (in relative comparison to other classes) because they lack AoE Damage and AoE CC effects (plus some consider them squishy).

 

I still like playing rogues over many other classes although I consider them the weakest class by far (or should I say I like them BECAUSE I don't consider them as overpowered - but still overpowered - as the other classes). It does not make you a bad person if you love a class that many others consider weaker than other classes (but still overpowered). It's totally fine to say that. 

 

So please continue to love the rogue - it's about enjoying the game and liking your characters, not about relative power. 

[mosspit]

Actually the thread kind of digressed into a Rogue vs Ranger after this

 

A dual weilding rogue glass cannon optimized for crits, sneaks and death blows will severely out damage a ranger.

Calculations provided via various posters were aimed at shedding some light on this. Maybe hyperbole is applied? Or maybe you never expected to be proven the contrary, and by contrary I meant that the ranger maybe isn't "severely outdamaged" by a rogue.

 

Personally when the issue of pet is described along lines of dying too easily I struggle to understand if it is the reality of the situation or is it another case of hyperbole. Pets have enjoyed many fixes and buffs since vanilla days. Really all you need is Resilient Companion and level scaling takes care of the survivablity issue. Don't expect pets to tank boss dragons but they can handle 2 normal type enemies whacking on it no problem. At least in my experience.

 

Just to be clear, I have nothing against Rogues. In fact, the one and only build that I created on this forum was for a Rogue.

Edited September 13, 2017 by mosspit

[bigwillystyle]

I tried the high CON Rogue build and liked it.  Finished a Triple Crown run with it.  I ended up following the Tidefall + Alacrity route rather than dual Edge of Reason, mostly b/c I didn't want to do the Endless Paths again.  Very sturdy, high damage build.  

[Dr <3]

There is a link to the high con build? Just curios

[grausch]

Trust me , rogues, if built properly are one of the most powerful classes in the game. Why do you think obsidian gave them no late level abilities ththat are any good? Thats because they thought they are overpowered.

I completely wreck the game with a rogue for the simple fact they can lock down enemies one by one and kill them quickly. Unlike barbs who spread there damage out thinly over multiple targets who stand around the barb and hack him down.

My Frozen Crown Solo was done with a rogue so I can appreciate what Rogues do well. Insane single-target DPS with the ability to perma-stun or perma-prone single opponents and the best escape button in the game. The DPS math cannot account for different playstyles and party composition. My Frozen Lance build controlled the battlefield in a way that allowed him to survive almost unscathed, but the rogue would do more single target DPS. My rogue took out single opponents like taking candy from a baby, but he could easily be overwhelmed when fighting crowds.

 

So, in conclusion - the game is pretty balanced amongst most classes I have seen, but each one needs to be adapted to their specific strengths. DPS is great, but there are other factors that make my builds survive - strategy being number one and tactics being number two.

[Blades of Vanatar]

 

 

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise

Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.

maybe if you tried intelligent communication instead of arguing like you yourself just admitted then you would have more success next time

Pot...kettle...black. Hil-ari-ous!

[Lampros]

 

 

 

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise

Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.

maybe if you tried intelligent communication instead of arguing like you yourself just admitted then you would have more success next time

Pot...kettle...black. Hil-ari-ous!

 

 

Hey, that's being unfair to Jerek. I've yet to see him ever behaving in an "unintelligent" fashion - or unnecessarily argumentative.