Stealth in Deadfire?

[Infiltrator_SF]

Hey guys, I just wanted to ask if, other than the vision cones and stealing from shops, combat-related stealth is getting some love. Specifically, rogue stealth in PoE was very unsatisfying and unintuitive. 

You were punished for using "rogue" weapons, such as daggers and stilettos, and instead incentivized to use heavy 2-handers to deliver backstabs. This I could understand. In a way it's the legacy of old D&D titles and staff of the ram days in BG2.

On the other hand, the 2-handers didn't deliver nearly much of a blow from backstab as even 1-handed weapons from BG2. You could never expect to one-shot mages and the like, not to mention creeping up on someone was much, much harder - to the point where you could never reliably set up a rogue behind the enemy line and engage with your other party members - the rogue would always get spotted in the process.

 

Another thing that hurt rogues is the vagueness of stealth/invisiblity/backstab/special attack relations. Sometimes you could backstab foes twice even if they saw you coming - if you used auto attacks. Other times, special attacks couldn't backstab if used from invisibility. All of these discrepancies, coupled with the rogues being really weak other than single target dps, severely hurt their usefulness.

 

It didn't help that specializing in both mechanics and stealth was a lost cause. You couldn't have someone good at sneaking and disarming. But that's more of a problem with the skill system than with stealth I guess.

 

So, my suggestions for deadfire would be:

 

- Incentivize the use of "rogue weapons" for backstabbing and dual-wielding. This can be done in a myriad of ways, like providing bonuses to sneak attack/backstab for the weapons of a certain category.

 

- Allow specialization into both stealth and machinery. Skills should overall feel more useful and rewarding.

 

- Make backstab builds viable (in potd). Currently backstabbing is like a "fun" mode, where fun equates to microing your ass off to achieve minimal results. Backstab should reward tactical decisions and character planning substantially, sacrificing consistent for burst dps. You can now sort of do this but even the weakest monsters (on potd) survive the initial damage.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Infiltrator_SF

[Juodas Varnas]

I always preferred "backstabbing" with a blunderbuss, myself.

[FlintlockJazz]

No to rogue weapons.  I like playing Rogues that don't just use tiny little daggers but greatswords or whatever is appropriate.  This is just narrowing people's options for no real benefit imho. 

[Sedrefilos]

Apart from vision cones, there is also hearing radius, so that is an extra too. At that point I don't think anyone except the devs knows how stealth's gonna work in detail. We'll just have to wait for a dedicated update I guess.

[Heijoushin]

I know what you mean. Cloak and dagger with... a cloak and dagger feels better But so far, their whole design philosophy has been to avoid class limitations, so I doubt they'll change now. Still, I'm also looking forward to the better stealth. It adds a whole new tactical dimension to the game. 

[MortyTheGobbo]

Stealth in Pillars was pretty poor, but it didn't really affect my rogue. I certainly don't want to have to use stealth to play the class.

 

Mind you, I'm not very hyped up about stealth in Deadfire. I've never seen good stealth outside of dedicated stealth games.

[Infiltrator_SF]

No to rogue weapons.  I like playing Rogues that don't just use tiny little daggers but greatswords or whatever is appropriate.  This is just narrowing people's options for no real benefit imho. 

 

Would you mind reading the thread before replying?

 

Rogues should still have a variety of archetypes - swashbuckler, duelist etc. that allow for a variety of weapons. But for >>backstabbing<< builds, they should have an incentive to use daggers/stilletos etc., otherwise they will be again the most useless weapon type in the game, so might as well just remove it if they don't want it actually used.

[Silent Winter]

^^I equipped my rogue in PoE1 with daggers and stilettos - they were pretty effective (my highest damage dealer in that party).  Being fast weapons, they got sneak attack bonus more often when the opponent was hobbled/prone/whatever.  Can't say specifically for backstabbing though.

[MortyTheGobbo]

For the specific "backstab" ability, fast weapons are indeed inferior, since you only get one hit this way. Not to mention how hard it is to actually trigger it without using another ability (Shadowing Beyond).

 

I'd agree that it's an oversight. Minor, maybe, but it's still weird when a dagger or stiletto isn't a good weapon for this.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

No to rogue weapons.  I like playing Rogues that don't just use tiny little daggers but greatswords or whatever is appropriate.  This is just narrowing people's options for no real benefit imho. 

 

Would you mind reading the thread before replying?

 

Rogues should still have a variety of archetypes - swashbuckler, duelist etc. that allow for a variety of weapons. But for >>backstabbing<< builds, they should have an incentive to use daggers/stilletos etc., otherwise they will be again the most useless weapon type in the game, so might as well just remove it if they don't want it actually used.

 

Yes I did read the thread, would you mind not attacking the poster with baseless accusations when you reply?

 

No, they should not have an incentive to use daggers and stilletos for backstabbing, because that still pushes them towards using specific weapons.  Those weapons already have advantages over other weapons and are balanced equally against other weapons.  Declaring them the most useless weapon type in the game is patently false, stilletos in particular are actually rather good.

[Insidous]

With the new subclasses in deadfire, I guess we probably getting a subclass focussed on in battle stealth, backstabbing or both. Maybe the already announced "assassin" is somthing like that.

 

Regarding weapons I would not like a direct backstabbing bonus with certain weapons.

Maybe a more indirect approach? Like a stiletto proficiency modal that gives damage for minus deflection while not being engaged or something. More stacking damage bonuses are always nice for rouges 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Insidous

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

Rogues were useless to me in poe1, dying extremely fast.

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

They could make backstab independent of the weapon used, based only on stats/skills/talents. This would remove the problem of favoring a weapon entirely. Or they could add different effects to backstab depending on the weapons used. This could induce favoring of certain weapons again but also could open up more role playing aspects and immersion.

[Silent Winter]

...Or they could add different effects to backstab depending on the weapons used. This could induce favoring of certain weapons again but also could open up more role playing aspects and immersion.

I like this idea - add bleeding for edged weapons, or concussion for blunt weapons, or prone for 'reach' weapons (like you swept the legs).

[rjshae]

Perhaps rogues should gain a bonus to DR penetration when backstabbing with faster weapons? I.e. they can employ the agile nature of the weapon to target more vulnerable locations.